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Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 6:10pmSanction this postReply
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Is the Objectivist's movements greatest hope of electoral and cultural success with the Libertarian Party?

I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and I can't make up my mind. Objectivists are harsh critics of the LP in many ways and although libertarianism (With all it's qualities) does not involve a complete philosophy as such, is a fairly large party.

Also, is the Libertarian party best changed to contain more objectivist ideas from being a part of it as opposed to simply criticising it?

Post 1

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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There tends to be a lot of animosity on both sides of the divide. 

I kind of doubt the success of a plan that rests on a party that consists largly of anarchists opposed to the electoral process and participating in it.

(not saying anarchists shouldn't organize but A POLITICAL PARTY?!)

---Landon


Post 2

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 6:48pmSanction this postReply
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Objectivism's greatest hope is the ideas that it constitutes. The libertarian party may very well bring the US closer to the Capitalist ideal, and I like it for that.

What I'm currently wondering is whether Objectivism would be the dominant philosophy long term. If we can do some kind of tests that show Objectivism will be the dominant philosophy long term, then the next question I would like to answer is how quickly can it change?

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Post 3

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
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Anyone hosting a Libertarian Party (LP) event should place the famous diabolical words of Dante's Divine Comedy over the entrance:

"Abandon all hope ye who enter here."

I made the mistake of involving myself in a local county chapter of the Libertarian Party back in the late 1990s.  I did not believe Peter Schwartz's analysis "Libertarianism: The Perversion of Liberty" until after many months of direct participation.  Now I do.

Between the active recruitment of potheads, the open tolerance of anarchists and the worship of the "no initiation of force" (NIOF) principle at the expense of right reason, it became too much irrationality to ignore.  I quit the party in 2000 and changed my voter registration to "No Party Affiliation."

I see no signs of change in the LP.  I would have more confidence in replacing faith with reason in the Republican Party than I would of getting the LP to adopt reason rather than NIOF as its ruling value.  Neal Boortz had this to say:

My string of addressing Libertarian Party conventions has, I think, come to an end.  You folks keep dressing up in your nifty hemp jackets and preaching drug legalization, and I'll keep doing my bit on the radio trying to convince Americans that there's more to libertarianism than smoking weed.  In the meantime, let me know when the next convention is so that I can make some alternative plans.

In the meantime, see if you can spend a bit of time trying to develop a message for people who are interested in things other than mind-altering drugs.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 2/26, 6:59pm)


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Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 7:05pmSanction this postReply
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I like the LP and wish them well, but all need to understand that they are not Objectivists. There are many in the LP that are also Objectivists, but the majority that I met when I was involved were not.

9/11 was the major fracture for me and the LP. I was astonished by the LP's response (and their continued response). In hindsight, I shouldn't have been surprised. They are broken record stuck in a "government is bad" loop.

(Edited by Jordan Zimmerman on 2/26, 7:06pm)


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Post 5

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 8:19pmSanction this postReply
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A political party is made up of individuals. It is those individuals who determine the policies of the party.

Every time an Objectivist refuses to have anything (more) to do with the Libertarian Party the probability that the LP will become more Objectivist decreases. The only way that the LP will move in an Objectivist direction is for Objectivists to work within the party.

I get very annoyed with Objectivists who realize that the Democrats are predominately socialists and the Republicans are predominately mercantilists and religionists yet they would rather support one of them than the only political party that is explicitly pro capitalism.

It's quite fascinating how often a Libertarian hears "I agree with you on 90+% of the issues and with the Democrats and Republicans less than 70% but there is this one issue we disagree on and therefore I can't support the LP -- at all."



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Monday, February 27, 2006 - 10:43amSanction this postReply
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Actually, I still vote Libertarian when I like the candidate. And, in my heart, I wish they would succeed. I just don't have the desire to involved with them directly.

Due to the LP's position on many issues, they are not the de facto party an Objectivist should vote for (of course, there are none). For 90% of the issues, they usually have the correct position. But, that last 10% gives me a lot of pause. Their anti-government myopia makes them unattractive on the most important issues we face today.


Post 7

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 4:05pmSanction this postReply
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I've long wondered why Objectivists have never formed  a political party.  For all the talk about how the Libertarian party just doesn't cut it as well as the obvious flaws of Dems and the GOP, wouldn't it make sense to articulate a clear and consistent message for principled minarchy in the political dialogue?  The reason I haven't done so is that I don't feel that I have a strong enough grasp of the philosophy, and I don't really know if I can be considered a complete and total Objectivist. 

Of course, one of the challenges in creating an Objectivist political party is to differentiate the ideas from libertarian ideas.  The fast paced sound bite environment in which one must operate politically nowadays favors only quick bullet points on the issues.  And from a bullet point standpoint, the basic political ideas (aside from military policy) are nearly identical between Objectivists and libertarians.  The voting public would have no patience for a detailed explaination of metaphysical and epitemological axioms and their resulting political policies. 


Post 8

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
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Today's culture is horrendously far from where it would need to be for an Objectivist-based political party to succeed, IMO. Beyond that, Objectivism encompasses much more than politics. I can't imagine there ever being an "Objectivist Political Party".

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Post 9

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan, I basically agree with your last post.  I merely wonder how else there is ever to be made a principled case for minarchism other than with an Objectivist ideological framework?  Libertarianism seems to slouch towards anarchism, Republicans slouch towards corporate statism and/or theocracy, and Democrats slouch towards socialism...almost without fail. 

Post 10

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 5:34pmSanction this postReply
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I actually wonder about this myself. I can imagine a time when a majority of the public's philosophy approaches Objectivism (reason-based, non-altruistic). Even then, I imagine that there will be multiple political parties as reasonable people can disagree on the best way to accomplish something. Imagine a Party A, Party B (C?) each with rational self-interest to back up their positions. One can dream... 

Post 11

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 11:01pmSanction this postReply
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Pete, good enough to repeat ...

=============
I merely wonder how else there is ever to be made a principled case for minarchism other than with an Objectivist ideological framework?  Libertarianism seems to slouch towards anarchism, Republicans slouch towards corporate statism and/or theocracy, and Democrats slouch towards socialism...almost without fail. 
=============

Ed


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Post 12

Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, guys.
I had to weigh in here on this subject. 
I, too, was very involved with my local Libertarian Party for a couple of years. Like Jordan, I certainly disagreed with the official 9/11 party stance, but I'd become disillusioned long before then, for many of the same reasons stated in the Neal Boortz quote (post #3-- thanks, Luke), and the ones Luke brought up himself. I originally only got involved with the party because I was under the (mistaken) impression that, as the political party whose ideas most closely resembled Objectivism, it would be chock full of mainly rational people who were, at least, familiar with, and admirers of Rand, if not actual Objectivists. I met, literally, a couple of people who identified themselves as such, and they were a hoot to be around. But the vast majority of the party members were, well, nuts. The older, seasoned "leaders" were mainly obsessed with the anti-government agenda (one of the more prominent party leaders would get into heated, profane arguments--publicly--about whether or not the local party should be required to officially join the national party; apparently, even affiliation with the national chapter of the same damn party  had too much of a "big brother" feel for this guy). The newer joiners were mainly recruited from events like Hempfest--people motivated by some single issue that was close to their heart (legalization of prostitution, drugs, gambling, or the fantasy of the abolition of taxes, etc.) The sad fact is, the majority of Libertarians have nothing in common with each other except for the basic wish for the government to leave them the hell alone. The lack of a unifying moral philosophy among its members ultimately proved to be unsatisfying for me, and the conventions were definitely the place to experience this cacophony of ideas in all its glory. The guest speakers and their topics varied greatly (in both quality and relevance). I will never forget the time we were treated to a presentation by a guy who was invited to speak only because he survived Waco (read: Branch Davidian cult member). What did he talk about? What else?--he gave a brutal, first-hand account of that day's events, and then he reminisced about what an amazing, awesome, genius-prophet David Koresh was. Oh, and then he fielded religious questions from the Jesus Freak Libertarians in attendance, who were seriously interested in David Koresh's interpretation of Biblical scripture. The guy had no real political relevance, (because the only party he belonged to was the David Koresh Party) yet here he was, the Sunday brunch keynote speaker (he closed out the convention!)... only at an LP event.
As I mentioned before, the lack of morally philosophic unity made the party much less attractive to me, which,  in turn, made it impossible to weather the other main problem it has: it's a third party, with no political power, so most Libertarian activism amounts to a whole lot of wheel-spinning. (Hard work + Donations = Virtually no chance of political success.)  Libertarians don't hold fundraisers to assist candidates' campaigns; they hold fundraisers just for a chance to get them on the ballot. Getting elected to a local school or public library board is seen as a major election victory. Libertarians work just as hard as Democrats and Republicans, but their guy never wins. You have to be absolutely passionate about a third party in order to work tirelessly on its behalf for such a small return, and I just can't feel passionate about the LP. Objectivism yes, but not the LP. My sentiments about the LP are identical to Jordan's: I root for them too, but I'd never be involved with them again.


Post 13

Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Erica.

Thanks for making those points (that ex-Waco guy was especially brow-raising). I would like to make a suggestion to you, though: to please break up long posts into 3-to-6 line paragraphs. It's especially hard to read long, continuous wording on a computer screen. I had some trouble reading your post 12 above.

Ed
[but I didn't give up!  :-)]


Post 14

Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, Ed.

Thanks for the tip. I'll keep that in mind. Sorry for your difficulty (I'm new to this forum-posting thing).  : )


Post 15

Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 8:14pmSanction this postReply
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Hey there, Erica. No worries.

Ed


Post 16

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 2:12amSanction this postReply
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What do you people think is a good action to take when voting? Are all of you going to wait for your perfect Objectivist world? Best bet is to vote Republican, party of principal is what I always say. Not bad for the wallet either.

Mr. Ertarian


Post 17

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 7:15amSanction this postReply
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Anonymous self named "Mr Lib Ertarian", who is your profile image of?

Post 18

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
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I joined the national Libertarian Party just about the time of its founding convention in Colorado in 1972. I was active in it until 1984, when I resigned my position in our State organization and terminated my participation in the LP.

My experience as an LP activist, and as a political activist more generally, was similar to that recorded here by Erica Schulz. Only in the earlier era, I don't recall the Party functions containing such desperados as in Erica's sojourn. I would like to share some of my own experience from the earlier era. It was a very rich experience, really, with both bad and good in it.

But first and foremost, I urge young readers to ponder very seriously: What alternatives for your precious life time are you not pursuing due to time and attention spent on political activism? During most of the twelve years in which I was involved in the LP, I was an unskilled laborer who had to work very long hours. Very little time was left over. With 20-20 hindsight I can see that I should have been learning to apply and solve partial differential equations instead of engaging in political activism.

I said that there was good in my activist experience:
(1) I made some friends, and some of them became life-long friends.
(2) I learned to write.
(3) I was a delegate to the national LP convention in New York, across from Madison Square Garden, for the 1976 election. A few rows behind me in the MA delegation was Robert Nozick and lovely wife. To the left was the NY delegation, including Ralph Raico, Roy Childs, and Murray Rothbard. The platform debates were thrilling. Andrea Millen smoked a cigar to compete with Ed Crane's saddle oxfords. I supported the avowedly Objectivist candidate (Kay Harlow?) for President, but she didn't get the nomination.
(4) I talked individually to around 1000 Americans about political issues. This was by way of getting petition signatures for putting LP candidates on the ballot. I was giving them a new and coherent set of political ideas in my own words and in my hand-out literature. That was not the only good thing happening. I was also learning something really neat about my fellow citizens. So many are well-informed and think very seriously about political matters.

Lastly, I remember one woman, maybe 20 years older than I, whom I approached for a signature on a sunny day in the park. After telling her my purpose in disturbing her, she looked so earnestly at me and began "You, you shouldn't be doing this," then stopped and said "No, I shouldn't say that." She signed.


Post 19

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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'Lib'

Exactly what principle(s) is/are the Republican party abiding by today?


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