Santa

Joe Idoni,

I'm starting to get the feeling that your mother isn't that great of a person... sigh.

Glad to see that you've turned out so well, as far as I've seen. Welcome to SOLO.

Post 21

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 6:49am

Landon,

You make a good point. But, a peer problem occurs when your children tell other children there is no Santa. Angry parents attack you.

(Edited by Robert Davison on 10/10, 6:52am)

Post 22

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 6:59am

Is There a Santa Claus?

An Editorial by

FRANCIS P. CHURCH

Reprinted from the

NEW YORK SUN

September 21, 1897
We take pleasure in answering at once and thus prominently the communication below, expressing at the same time our great gratification that its faithful author is numbered among the friends of The Sun:

Dear Editor:
I am eight years old.
Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says "If you see it in 'The Sun' it's so." Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus?
Virginia O'Hanlon,
115 West 95th Street,
New York City
Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except what they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith, then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimney. on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

Post 23

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 7:40am

I've never actually read that bit before. THIS is the great article they trot out every year? WTF?

Ever watch the RUDOLPH special at Christmas? Ever notice how ANGRY everyone is? Santa is angry, the elves are angry, the reindeer are angry, the misfit toys are angry...

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 10/10, 7:42am)

Post 24

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 9:02am

Jody is right. LIGHTEN UP, PEOPLE!!! Having fun with the Santa thing will not screw up your kids. Neither will the tooth fairy.

Post 25

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 9:20am

Again, maybe that idea in itself is harmless, but it's part of a larger thought system that needs to be confronted. When you have people who believe that God is responsible for Hurricane Katrina, suddenly belief in Santa is not so innocent.
Ideas have consequences, and we should be careful of ideas like Santa in spite of whatever "pleasure" or "fun" (Geez, am I sounding like a puritan?) it might bring in the short run.

Post 26

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 10:40am

And far from being inane, I think questions like this are good. We challenge the culture at large to examine traditions that they've mindlessly accepted, we get to the root of such traditions and see their purpose, and if they have purpose, we keep them, if not, we confront them.

So the original question: Is it wrong to let children believe in Santa? Put aside feel-good cartoon memories or negative coal in the stocking memories. What is the purpose of Santa, or the belief in Santa? The question isn't so much should they be allowed to believe as much as why would they want to, why would parents want them to?

Post 27

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 11:17am

I agree, Joe. And why do people want children to believe in Santa? Do they think it's "cute?" What's so cute about a kid being deluded about something? I hark back to Art Linkletter's "Kids Say the Darndest Things." I was always uncomfortable when a child would say something on that show that clearly indicated that they had a mistaken idea about something, and the audience and host would just laugh, and not correct the mistaken idea. I don't think kids want to be made a fool of any more than grown-ups do.

Post 28

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 1:45pm

Pro's:

Child learns good people want to be kind to them - world is benevolent

Child learns world is magic, exciting place.

Mom & Dad can be generous, without obvious "hooks" - if child knows parents are giving, child may pester parents for more toys.

Con's

World is full of predators. Perhaps terrorizing a child with a "boogy man" would better prepare them for life? (some martial arts would have improved my incarceration in government school!).

Child learns he gets something for nothing - the world owes him a comfortable existence.

I've read somewhere that once kids get over 5 years old, they can start distinguishing fantasy from reality. So perhaps that's when real-life lessons should be taught?

Scott

Post 29

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 1:56pm

And given that, and recognising primitive ancestors had mindset of that age much of their life, little wonder believing of gods and goddesses... and all manner of other fantasies...
(Edited by robert malcom on 10/10, 1:58pm)

Post 30

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 1:37pm

I am quite against the concept of Santa, at least if one is to present it in a way that leads kids to believe in a mystic man who can somehow break pretty much all of the fundamental laws of physics.
Lets see, he can travel to all of those houses in one night? He must have a warp-drive on that sled. And he can afford to make all those presents? Hmm..he must counterfeit a lot of money... :-).
Seriously, I have diverged a bit from my point. Encouraging kids, whom after all are largely very impressible, is not moral. It is not moral to encourage kids to believe in the mystical, I mean they have enough reasons what with all the crap in popular culture these days without their parents lying to them as well.
If you want your kids not be used to believing in the mystical, the irrational, why on earth would one encourage them to believe in Santa? And if you dont mind your kids believing in the mystical, then you are still pretty irresponsible.
Remember, there is no such thing as a white-lie, children do not benefit in the long-run by you creating a fantasy for them when the reality is perfectly fine.
If however you want to let your children know the truth, but engage in a little pretend Santa game anyway, this is fine. At least the kids know what is really going on.

Post 31

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 2:16pm

That being the case, how can one then justify sanctioning fantasy tales as in science fantasy, since the only validity within those be the elements which deal in the real world - thus not needing, really, those fantasy parts, as they, like Santa, pervert one's mind... [science fiction, of course, being quite another matter...]
(Edited by robert malcom on 10/10, 2:18pm)

Post 32

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 2:37pm

"That being the case, how can one then justify sanctioning fantasy tales as in science fantasy, since the only validity within those be the elements which deal in the real world - thus not needing, really, those fantasy parts, as they, like Santa, pervert one's mind..."

Frederick Wertham, eat your heart out.

Hmmm...I should have been on the lookout for this question.

Regarding Santa's powers, they've certainly grown over the years since his earliest incarnation. (Cheech: "Hey man, how do they reindeer fly?" Chong: "Ah, Santa spinkles them with magic dust, man!") And Robert does raise a valid question. I would say that the difference is when we read such tales, we can understand them as metaphors, or even fantasy for fantasy's sake, simply for fun. (Like Paul Bunyan, for example. He's not real, never was a man 16 feet and 10 inches high, with his feet on the ground and his head in the sky! He's a metaphor, an exaggeration.) But the principles underlying the metaphor are what we should and we are not being told that they are literally true (hopefully). With Santa, however, we are telling kids that it IS real and not a metaphor or a game. I never thought Leo the Lop was real, or Cat in the Hat, or Transformers. The message of the story is what you look for.

Actually, the powers in this case, the ability to fly, cover the world in a night, and create material goods out of seemingly nothing, are exaggerations of how Communism would work. All those blank-out questions that Rand asked, here's your answer! It's magic! Santa's got the ability, so we make him work year round to give to others according to their need.

Post 33

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 6:57pm

The difference between fiction and delusion is in the mind of the believer.

Perhaps someone with children could try this experiment?

Tell them money comes from the "Dollar Fairy", Green Fedspan. The Dollar Fairy prints dollars with magic ink, so everyone has food, clothing, shelter, a reason to work, et.

How old does a "child" have to be to keep believing?

Scott

Post 34

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 6:40am