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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 11:38amSanction this postReply
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Objectivism takes a strong position on sexual morality to clarify that sex is good.  That this philosophy makes that idea explicit is a positive thing, as with all issues, one must assert positions on the essentials.  And essentially, sex is good.  However, I have profound problems with Ayn Rand’s concretization of that abstract principle.  And let me make it clear that sex is good.   Sex is definitely good.

 

But on first reading The Fountainhead, before knowing anything about Objectivism per se, I was bothered (as so many are) by Roark’s relationship with Dominique and their odd sexual arrangement.  While it is perfectly understandable that a loving relationship could grow out of something as vile as a rape, in the context of Roark and Dominique the rape is glamorized and held up as a kind of ideal form of sexual encounter. 

 

It is such an irony that a philosophy that advocates freedom from coercion also admires the rapist.  In answer to this Miss Rand makes it clear in a sense that Dominique was “asking for it,” that the rape in The Fountainhead occurred by “engraved invitation.”  While it is true that Dominique was sending signals to Roark of her attraction, that fails to justify his taking her by force. 

 

Even if she liked it.

 

While all sorts of justifications can be made for the rape in The Fountainhead, it is much more challenging to justify the description of the one in Rand’s play The Night of January 16th.  The following is the testimony of the heroine, Karen Andre, regarding her first day of work in the office of Bjorn Faulkner:

 

KAREN: He seemed to take delight in giving me orders.  He acted as if he were cracking a whip over an animal he wanted to break. And I was afraid:

STEVENS:  Because you didn’t like that?

KAREN: Because I liked it….So when I finished my eight hours, I told him I was quitting.  He looked at me and didn’t answer.  Then he asked me suddenly if I had ever slept with a man.  I said, No, I hadn’t.  He said he’d give me a thousand kroner if I would go into the inner office and take my skirt off.  I said I wouldn’t.  He said if I didn’t, he’d take me.  I said try it.  He did. After a while, I picked up my clothes; but I didn’t go.  I stayed.  I kept the job.

 

Again, the rape is glamorized here.  In addition, the act of forcing himself sexually on the woman wins her undying admiration and eternal devotion.  

 

How can this rather twisted view of sexual morality be considered part of an otherwise integrated philosophy based on individual rights and in particular, the freedom from coercion via the initiation of force?



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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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She told him to try it.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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Rand was human, remember? Maybe she liked it rough and let that leak into her fiction. Maybe she meant solely to convey the raw passion between Roark and Dominique. (I won't comment on Night of January 16th since I haven't read it.) I personally don't know why Rand depicted sex the way she did, but I suspect that she had her reasons.

I will say that if an idea presented in Rand's fiction conflicts with the idea she presented in her non-fiction, stick with the idea that makes sense in the context of Objectivism as a whole.

Rand was a novelist before she was a philosopher, she developed her ideas further with each of her works, and I think that she did not fully flesh out Objectivism until after she wrote Atlas Shrugged and turned towards non-fiction. Nor was the development of Objectivism complete when she died; treating her philosophy as if it were complete when Rand died and needed no further work is the mistake Leonard Peikoff and the rest of the Ayn Rand Institute made.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 3:01pmSanction this postReply
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I classify Rand's fictional depiction of sex with her disparagement of homosexuality.  They're both ideas she had that are not essential to her philosophy, and Objectivism is not marred if we reject them, in my opinion.

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
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The initial sexual encounter in the Fountainhead is not a rape scene, despite the fact that Dominique refers to it as rape. This is because Rand explicitly writes that Dominique wanted Roark to take her like that and that Roark knew it. This is clearly only possible in a fictional setting with an omniscient author describing the scene.

The perversity of the act serves as a pointer to the perversity of the ethics she describes within the book's society. If you were to ignore or overlook the fact that Dominque wants Roark to act the way he does, and that Roark knows this, the scene would be...different.

Daniel makes an important point in his reading of the script of January 16. Depending on how the actress delivered the line would make a whole world of difference to the scene.

I'm not particularly comfortable with the Fountainhead scene (and similarly the January 16 line) but that is because, on some level, I refuse to take Rand's word that Roark knew Dominique's thoughts. As Rand was the author, my discomfort is irrational. 

(Edited by Fraser Stephen-Smith on 9/01, 4:29pm)

(Edited by Fraser Stephen-Smith on 9/02, 6:06am)


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Post 5

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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Don't forget the sex scene between Dagny and Hank.
If I remember correctly Dagny admires her bruises like trophies afterwards.

Rand obviously had a sexual fantasy about being manhandled. She liked the idea that it would involve some sort of fight or physical tussle. She wanted to be dominated by a man that way. It got her hot and wet.

Whether she ever acted on it in real life, is open to debate.

She was human and had her own sex fantasies like the rest of us.

Her fantasy had nothing to do with Objectivism in specific terms.


(Edited by Marcus Bachler on 9/01, 6:46pm)


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Post 6

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 9:02pmSanction this postReply
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This is not really going with the flow of the thread, but it is about sex, so I don't know if it counts as off-topic.

Now, sure, I don't understand half the innuendo that flies around here or why it comes up everywhere (no pun intended), but whenever my philosophy major friend and I talk about sex, he constantly says that he doesn't understand why everyone makes a big deal about sex. In proper post-modern fashion, he then proceeds to make a big deal about sex himself, but from the other side of the tracks.

Rather than seeing sex as something really really fun, he sees it as "humping a bag of shit." That's a quote from one of the philosophy professors, by the way. That's the message that's going out to students here: humans are bags of shit. How's that for a sense of life? They've replaced Puritan "sex is bad because God says so (but we like it anyway, we just hate ourselves for it)" with pomo "sex is bad because it is an act of life (but we like it anyway, we just hate ourselves for it)." Screw both of them (pun not intended this time either).

Sarah

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Friday, September 2, 2005 - 2:51amSanction this postReply
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Sarah, that's the worst thing I've ever heard.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Rather than seeing sex as something really really fun, he sees it as "humping a bag of shit."

If he thinks he is humping a bag of shit, then he is attracted to shit and shit is attracted to him. QED - he is a shit bag.

Sarah, you are too good for him ;-)


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Friday, September 2, 2005 - 10:29amSanction this postReply
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Marcus,

I know. :) But he can still be saved, I know it!

Sarah

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Friday, September 2, 2005 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

That's one of the funniest things I have ever read in my entire life.

LOLOLOLOLOL...

Humping a bag of shit?

Oh my God!

Whoever thinks that way deserves to go home at the end of the day to their respective bag of shit and see if they can fill it with more.

Dayaamm!

LOLOLOLOL...

Michael


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Friday, September 2, 2005 - 11:29amSanction this postReply
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Humping a bag of shit? Sarah, your friend had one bad experience experimenting with anal sex, and now he sees all sex as nothing more than humping a bag of shit? That is unforgivable.

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Post 12

Friday, September 2, 2005 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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When passionately in love , I don't understand how can one’s feelings be any different than Hank, Roark, or Galt‘s. Ayn Rand didn‘t think sex alla Boccaccio, her sex was natural, pure, and enjoyed by her heroes and heroines just as nature commands .


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Post 13

Friday, September 2, 2005 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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...just as nature commands.

You mean outside the bounds of reason?

Reminds me of one of her favourite quotes:

"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed"
Francis Bacon.

Nah!

She just liked it hot and hard ;-)


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Post 14

Saturday, September 3, 2005 - 8:01amSanction this postReply
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Hmm...I think it is possible that Ayn used the rape scenes as a metaphor. She believed that a man should be a hero, and that a woman should be a hero-worshipper. Her mind was unique; maybe it was an expression of her desire to meet a man who could "rape" her intellectually, and make her feel like a woman; a man who was worthy of dominating her, by her own standards. It is possible that as a hero-worshipper, she grew tired of always being in control, but could not give it away arbitrarily. If her rape scenes were questioned in her lifetime, I would love to read her response; I would find it a bit strange if they weren't. Maybe someone should email her "intellectual heir," and see if he knows.
 
Nicholas


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Saturday, September 3, 2005 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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I have to say something about this "humping a bag of shit" business.

Lol, I would love to meet the man who could say that with a straight face. Personally, I couldn't hold that premise and still get erect for sex.

I haven't laughed that hard since yesterday. Thank you Sarah.

Nicholas


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Saturday, September 3, 2005 - 8:18amSanction this postReply
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Nicholas,

Someone did question it. She was asked many times if the scene in the Fountainhead constituted rape. She always denied it.

Then eventually she conceded, that if it was "rape", then it was "rape" by engraved invitation.

So, she liked the idea of forceful sex when consensual.

She probably would call it hero worship, however the "forceful" part is definitely not essential to it, more a predilection..


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Saturday, September 3, 2005 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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Surely Ayn Rand was against out-right rape.

Marcus has given the best description I've found of what Ayn Rand could have thought about her sex scenes. He backs up his speculation with quotes from Rand, where she spoke directly on the subject. Thanks, and excellent speculation.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 9/03, 9:07am)


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Post 18

Saturday, September 3, 2005 - 9:17amSanction this postReply
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My guess is that men who don't like sex feel that way because (a) they aren't getting any, and (b) they aren't any good at it.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you all for your insights.

In the preface of Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand, Leonard Peikoff points out that Ayn Rand considered sex as important, and thus includes it in his examination of her philosophy.  He devotes six pages of the book to this very topic in a section entitled "Sex as Metaphysical." 

Peikoff presents an elegant, though slightly vague, description of the Objectivist view of sex.  It is elegant in that it focuses on the big picture of how sex should be viewed in an objectivist context. It is vague in that it fails to address any concrete issues of sexual morality.  Overall, though, I agree with  his position wholeheartedly.

However, going back to the preface of the book, he claims that the contents of his book cannot properly be described as "official Objectivist doctrine."  He clarifies this by adding that "Objectivism is the name of Ayn Rand's philosophy as presented in the material she herself wrote or endorsed." 

And though Peikoff's description of an objectivist sexual morality is all well and good,  many of Ayn Rand's views on sexuality, as concretized via fictional characters, contradict his premise.  For example, Peikoff holds the view that basically all sexual practices between consenting adults are moral.  "This excludes," he writes, "the chaser's promiscuity, the rapist's coercion, the adulterer's pretense of fidelity, and the sadist's pretense that his power to cause suffering is a mark of efficacy."

Though I agree with the exceptions he lists, some of Ayn Rand's heroes, including Howard Roark, appear to indulge in them.    


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