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Post 20

Monday, August 8, 2005 - 4:15amSanction this postReply
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Adam Reed wrote:  3. The experiments are repeated with controls for the "normal" causes, and the "evidence" for "alternative" causes vanishes.

Adam, I do "dog and pony" shows for a local science museum: acids and bases in the kitchen and stuff like that.  It is a family event -- but families are complicated -- and a single unhappy family can make a difference in whether or not I remember to explain what pH means.  You surround me with a 100 hostile scientists and stage magicians, and I won't even remember whether vinegar is an acid or a base.


Post 21

Monday, August 8, 2005 - 4:16amSanction this postReply
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How does an electro-encephalograph work?

How is it that the human mind can move the pens on a machine, but that one mind cannot affect another at a distance?

How does a polygraph work?  What makes the polygraph unreliable when administered to a practiced liar and yet the equally practiced examiner can tell that the subject is lying



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Post 22

Monday, August 8, 2005 - 7:11amSanction this postReply
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Michael asks:
How does an electro-encephalograph work?

How is it that the human mind can move the pens on a machine, but that one mind cannot affect another at a distance?

I suspect you know the answers to these questions.  The brain is known to produce electromagnetic waves, since it contains moving charges.  There are experimental data to support this and it is explained by standard electricity and magnetism theory.

However, there is no evidence that the brain can receive (let alone interpret) electromagnetic waves from an outside source.

But instead of looking for an explanation, I think it's more important to find some data that needs explaining.  So far, that's not available.

Thanks,
Glenn


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Post 23

Monday, August 8, 2005 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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Roger,

Thank you for reproducing my 1997 post.

I asked you what Nathaniel Branden was claiming, because I wanted to make sure that he wasn't referring to other sorts of phenomena besides the kinds of things I experienced and saw demonstrated in that Intensive.

It doesn't appear that he was.

You threw me way off in your post #13 by implying that people who actually knew each would pretend not to know each other during an Intensive--and then pretend to discover all kinds of things about each other during one of those quick Intensive exercises. I can't say that such things never happened--how many Intensives has NB conducted, and how many people participated in them?--but there is no need to attribute the typical results of one of those exercises to fraud on the part of the participants.

I still essentially agree with what I said in my 1997 post. The phenomena are real, but far less wild and crazy than some presentations might make them appear. These kinds of "social perception" are not always accurate. And... there is no need for an ESP-style explanation for such social perception and/or inference.

Robert Campbell

PS. Did NB's reference to apparently normal people functioning with only a thin film of cells in their cerebral cortex pertain to people who suffer from an "asymptomatic" form of hydrocephalus? If so, I've heard the claim before, though frankly I have no idea whether it's true. From what I know of the history of neuropsychological testing, any kinds of brain damage will lead to some kind of impaired function--but you have to know how to test for the impaired function.



Post 24

Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 9:59pmSanction this postReply
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Branden will be speaking at the Energy Psychology and the Soul Connection conference.

www.torontoepc.com

What is it? "Energy psychology unites psychology, biophysics and spirit. It is a family of mind/body interventions clinically observed [is that the same as proved] to consistently help with a wide range of psychological concerns, through directly and methodically treating the human VIBRATIONAL MATRIX. This matrix includes the biofield that envelops the body, the energy centers (chakras), and the energy pathways (meridians, and related acupoints.)"

Key Speakers:
Tiller: featured in the film "What the Bleep do we know," will talk about "His scientific work on the power of intention to alter matter. how human consciousness can dominate the physics involved."

Wesch: "Energy psychology is the latest of a group of well documented experiential phenomena that seem to fall outside usual materialistic paradigm explanations."

I like to see the "documentation" since it "seems to fall outside usual materialistic paradigm explanations."


Hurtak: "Understanding our interconnectedness releases us from our limitations and make us part of the greater totality."

Dr. Cortis: "Within our body lie two domains: the domain of the mind and the domain of the heart. The mind is primarily a reactive system, driven by the unsatisfied need for control and power. Our mind is materialistic, judgmental, impatient and constantly demands our attention. The heart, in contrast is driven more by spiritual concerns, by love. Our heart seeks connectedness, self expression, and fulfillment of our deepest needs in life. By becoming aware of the spiritual nature of our heart, we will be able to communicate with our heart, to use our heart intelligence, and to see through the eyes of our heart.


Post 25

Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 11:09pmSanction this postReply
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Not only is Branden presenting a workshop, but the site includes a testimonial to "Energy Psychology" from him.

I already knew about some bizarre stuff, but this takes the cake...

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Post 26

Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 1:12amSanction this postReply
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In response to Robert Campbell's request for specific examples from Branden's intensives, I am repeating this excerpt from a prior post I made on another thread
 

"In the 1970s, I attended a few of Dr. Branden’s intensives on “Self-Esteem and the Art of Being.”   In one exercise, he often asked participants to sit with someone they did not know and to say nothing, just look at the other person’s eyes for several minutes.  Following this, participants were asked to share their thoughts with their partner.


The person with whom I was paired was astonished when I told him he had been separated from his family for an extended period at a young age, and that this had been exceedingly painful for him.  He was dumbfounded that someone could know something so important about his past without being told.  He shared the information with the rest of the group.  Similar stories were recounted with equal amazement by other participants.


"It was clear from the exercise that we are constantly receiving all kinds of information from those around us, if we choose to tune in and attend to it.  Messages do not always have to be put into words.  Obviously this does not amount to ‘proof’’ in any measurable scientific sense, but for me to pretend that the information was not there, in his eyes, would constitute an act of evasion.


"Dr. Branden strongly believes in the powers of awareness to enrich and transform our lives.  It is a sad commentary on many so-called ‘Objectivists’ that they would prefer to shrink their capacity to know than risk being labeled a “mystic.”


"The fact that we cannot establish something in a scientific laboratory today  (and I agree that as yet we cannot) does not mean that we must wait until that day comes before opening our eyes and ears to the evidence that is all around us."

 

When you partake in an experience of this kind, it opens your eyes to possibilities you might have been inclined to dismiss previously.  Of course, the typical accusations of mysticism and charlatanism will now follow.  If I cared about that, I would be the sort of person who puts something else ahead of my own perception of reality.  Needless to say, I don't.

 

Energy Psychology is a radical new field of study, and--as with anything at such an early stage of development--the adherents run the gamut from serious investigators to snake oil salesmen.  I happen to know that Dr. Branden, like a great number of therapists,  is impressed with the remarkable therapeutic results of these fairly simple techniques.  They are extremely simple to teach and help to resolve painful symptoms in patients where nothing else has worked.  If a therapist is in business to help his patients, he would be foolish not to use techniques that are effective only because he does not understand the underlying psychological mechanisms.

 

Dr. Branden does not endorse the heavily mystical theorizing in which many energy psychologists like to indulge.  You can access his brief article on this topic here.

 

Incidentally, it might interest Objectivists to know that one of the pioneers in the field of energy psychology is Dr. Roger Callahan, another psychologist who was heavily influenced by Ayn Rand.  Some even credit Callahan with the founding of energy psychology (also called TFT or thought field therapy).  He was an associate of Dr. Branden's for many years prior to his break with Ayn Rand.      

 

  

(Edited by Dennis Hardin on 8/11, 1:16am)


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Post 27

Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 8:30amSanction this postReply
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Dennis, I sanctioned your post because I too attended those Intensives. However, increased awareness doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "energy psychology," whatever that really is.

That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with Nathaniel Branden speaking at an energy psychology conference or endorsing therapeutic techniques described as such. His whole approach to psychotherapy has always been using methods that seem to accomplish the goals of client and therapist. They helped me tremendously. But there is no real science here, though I am sure there are all kinds of studies larded up with statistics. Re science, I would want to see a falsifiable theory or theories also.

I have never experienced some of the new stuff he is using in some of his therapy so I cannot comment from personal experience. If I needed therapy today and went to him I would of course go along with what he would want to do to see the consequences, which is what I did nearly 30 years ago. I would not say to him what is your evidence? If he were a doctor and wanted me to take medicine I'd become much more conservative about that.

All his years of therapeutic work, aside from the benefits to his clients and passing on the techniques he used to other therapists, go with him as he will leave behind no studies or numbers associated with the work he personally did. I have tapes of almost all my work with him. Someday I may publish them in some form. (I don't have a copy of the "Life History" I filled out which might be valuable to have relative to that, but I'm sure it was thrown out a long time ago. I mean, where would he store, say, 10,000 of those and would it be wise? I think not.)

--Brant

(Edited by Brant Gaede on 8/11, 8:36am)


Post 28

Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 9:49amSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

There is a big difference between making full use of your normal faculties - which is what you experienced - and interpreting your experience as evidence for "paranormal processes" or "anomalous transfer of information," or for the kind of mystical bullcrap that one finds on the "Energy Psychology" website. A person who is fully aware of the efficacy of man's normal sensory, perceptual and cognitive faculties would not resort to such interpretations, but would instead look into the means by which our normal faculties achieve the results that you experienced. If one has confidence in the efficacy of normal human cognition, one can account for every specific phenomenon you experienced without needing to resort to the paranormal, the mystical or the anomalous.

Nearly every child experiences some periods of separation from its parents, and experiences the longest of such periods as abnormally long. Even if you hypothesized a specific duration for such a separation, it may have come from the normal process of subconscious deduction. For example, a child communicates emotions differently to parents and to strangers; the exercise of different muscle groups has different effects on the visible development of the skeletal system etc. What you report is hardly beyond the normal capabilities of human perception and normal cognitive integration.

The fact that Nathaniel Branden chooses to endorse "Energy Psychology" without expressing any of the obvious qualms that a rational person would have about the mystical bullshit on the web site on which he chooses to endorse it, and the fact that he chooses to ignore the normal human faculties in explaining the phenomena you saw at his "intensives," leads me to believe that Nathaniel Branden has an unreasonably low opinion of normal human cognition. Not a good thing in a "psychologist."

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Post 29

Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:59amSanction this postReply
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The problem, Adam, is that you cannot know that "normal human cognition" explains everything you say it can. Thus, like energy psychology generally, you are claiming too much. I also suspect you are deficit in understanding what is "normal" in human cognition. I mean what are the boundaries of that? What is inside those boundaries and what outside and why? And wouldn't "abnormal" human cognition still be human cognition? Truth can be judged in some cases by results, although not necessarily proved.

I must quickly add that I basically share your opinion about "energy psychology." I do think that someday it may be demonstrated scientifically to have some substance because of some personal experiences of mine, but those experiences are no better than anecdotes and the world is full of anecdotes.

--Brant

(Edited by Brant Gaede on 8/11, 11:04am)


Post 30

Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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I have just read NB's testimonial to energy psychology on the provided link. His sanction is implicit except for the "techniques" of energy psychology which he endorses (at least some of them). It is quite possible those techniques work but energy psychology is nevertheless bunk. I couldn't find anything that said he was going to the conference this year.

This all reminds me of a story my Father told me. A great scientist and skeptic once was asked, "If you saw it WITH YOUR OWN EYES, would you THEN believe?" "Certainly not," he said, "first I would have to investigate it with many instruments."

--Brant

(Edited by Brant Gaede on 8/11, 11:43am)


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Post 31

Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 11:29amSanction this postReply
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Brant,

You didn't go far enough in the website.  Although Nathaniel is not a keynote speaker he is speaking at a breakout session.


Enhancing Energy Work with the Sentence-Completion Technique
Nathaniel Branden, PhD
Energy Psychology can be very powerful, but it is not all there is to psychotherapy.
We need other tools in our kit. One of the most rapid and effective of these “tools”—sentence-completion work--can deepen and enrich the results we obtain with energy techniques (or with any other kind of therapy).
Nathaniel Branden, Ph.D. has been a licensed psychotherapist for thirty-five years, and has lectured on self-esteem all over the world. He is the author of 20 books, including “The Psychology of Self-Esteem,” “Honoring the Self,” “The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem,” and “The Art of Living Consciously.” He has been translated into eighteen foreign languages. In addition to his work as a therapist and writer, he conducts seminars on the application of self-esteem principles and techniques to the challenges confronting business in an information-age economy.
Objectives:
to cover the basics of sente4nce-completion work and show how it can used with any system of psychotherapy, with special emphasis on Energy Psychology.
1) What is the purpose of sentence-completion work? (a) to deepen self-awareness; (b) to motivate changes of behavior; (c) both of the foregoing.
Bill


Post 32

Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 11:54amSanction this postReply
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Bill, based on my experiences with sentence completion, it is an effective technique for getting right at problems with an altered state of consciousness. You end up relearning what you already know but is buried. BTW, all psychology, now that I think of it, has to be "energy psychology" because as living beings we are full of energy--but why mention something so obvious? It is literally redundant. I think they have misnamed this or are hijacking a concept.

--Brant


Post 33

Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Brant,

I fully understand what sentence completion is.  The only reason I posted the listing was your statement:

 I couldn't find anything that said he was going to the conference this year.
It is solely posted as evidence that Nathaniel is going to the conference and making a presentation there.

Here is the lead speaker's description on the website for the conference:

Dr. William A. Tiller, Stanford professor emeritus, was featured in the film What the Bleep do We Know. His scientific work on the power of intention to alter matter is altering our understanding of healing and of the universe.

Bill


Post 34

Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 4:19pmSanction this postReply
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Boy, Bill, I can hardly stand to read such guff. For me it's like water off a duck's back. Fortunately Dr. Tiller's work is "scientific" so we can expect references.

--Brant

____________________

I just Googled the guy. Since he's done the science, I expect he'll now approach Mr. Randi with the purpose of collecting that million dollars. 20 or more years ago I read a few issues of a magazine that was into this kind of thing, until I came across some joker who mentioned he did levitation and I knew for sure I was reading garbage. I don't need multiple issues anymore.

--BG

(Edited by Brant Gaede on 8/11, 4:31pm)


Post 35

Friday, August 12, 2005 - 12:53amSanction this postReply
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First of all, let me clarify that I did not mean to imply there was a connection between what occurred decades back at the Branden intensive and the relatively recent discoveries related to energy psychology.  Sorry if my prior post seemed to blur the distinction between the two topics.

 

Adam,

 

You state:

 

If one has confidence in the efficacy of normal human cognition, one can account for every specific phenomenon you experienced without needing to resort to the paranormal, the mystical or the anomalous…What you report is hardly beyond the normal capabilities of human perception and normal cognitive integration.

 

My only disagreement with you here would be your lumping together the three issues of the paranormal, the mystical and the anomalous.  I do not think Dr. Branden is suggesting that paranormal or mystical elements are involved here.  And I certainly see no need for this.  Anomalous cognition, however, denotes phenomena we cannot fully account for.  But the fact that we cannot yet account for it does not mean it is beyond the “normal capabilities” of human cognition.  So basically I agree with you.

 

I believe Branden has distanced himself from the mystical underpinnings of some energy psychology theorists, but he is much more focused on results   Here is a comment he made to another therapist (on Roger Callahan’s website) on March 29, 2004:

 

I, and I am sure others on this list, have successfully treated clients who thought that our energy techniques were utter nonsense, and said so right before their symptoms disappeared.

Clients have laughed and told me I must gave gone mad, and then to humor me they agreed to the "treatment" and were stunned by the result.

Cordially,

Nathaniel Branden

 

Brant,

 

All his years of therapeutic work, aside from the benefits to his clients and passing on the techniques he used to other therapists, go with him as he will leave behind no studies or numbers associated with the work he personally did.

 

I do not know for sure, but I suspect there are serious students of psychology who have approached Dr. Branden about documenting his work for future study.  If it hasn’t happened yet, it will.  There is ample time. NB isn’t going anywhere.  I have no doubt he will be around for many, many years to come. 

 

 

 

 


Post 36

Friday, August 12, 2005 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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I hope he is videotaping some of his work as he suggested he might do.

--Brant


Post 37

Friday, August 12, 2005 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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But instead of looking for an explanation, I think it's more important to find some data that needs explaining.  So far, that's not available.
 
Sometimes I am suprised at the accuracy of psychics that help police. This seems to be more in the area of "remote viewing" At before anyone comes at me, yes, I know how to filter out flim flam, how parlor tricks work, etc. Sometimes, they have produced highly accurate locations, composites, etc. That's evidence worth tyring to explain- the cops are pretty baffled.

As far as EFT/Energy Psychology goes- look at the Instant Emotional Healing book.Read the Introduction.  The point is that EFT has relieved severe, long term traumas. These guys basically were taking financial hits because they were curing cases in weeks that normally they'd be working with for much longer, if they were using more conventional therapies.  Like NB has been saying, it is a valuable tool to add to the bag. It is often used in conjunction with other tools.

Or, if you are more of the "show me" type, learn the balanced breathing protocol, and see how it makes you feel. I do it whenever I feel out of sorts and it is most helpful.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 8/12, 2:55pm)


Post 38

Friday, August 12, 2005 - 9:28pmSanction this postReply
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"Animals, infants and small children are exceedingly sensitive to emotional vibrations: it is their chief means of cognition. A small child senses whether an adult's emotions are genuine, and grasps instantly the vibrations of hypocrisy."

What about the lie-detector machine? It's reliability is heavily questioned, but the idea behind it, that there are bodily changes in patterns of breathing, pulse, and body movement that can serve as indicators of whether or not a person is lying.

Maybe really observant people can pick up on these things without aid of a machine?

Post 39

Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 11:23amSanction this postReply
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Maybe really observant people can pick up on these things without aid of a machine?

I have no doubt in my mind about this, whatsoever. I wish I remembered where that piece was we were discussing on the Branden Yahoo forum- I gotta look for that.


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