Why is beauty important to you?

I know I'm late to this party, but...
"O body swayed to music, O brightening glance,
How can we know the dancer from the dance?"-Yeats

I think if you hold a mirror up to your words and your photo the reflection will come close to answering your question Carrie.

Thanks for some beautiful musings.
(Edited by Jody Allen Gomez on 8/03, 10:30am)

Post 41

Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 6:33pm

I'm kind of sad now, I'm wishing this piece got submitted as an article, I'd want to post it as one of my favorites.

---Landon

Post 42

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 3:41pm

Ruth,

I read your profile.

I find the fact that you like to "Bait stupid asshat's on the internet" to be a Beautiful thing!;-)

Carrie,

The most beautiful person I have ever known does not know she is beautiful.

She does not care if she is beautiful and does not care if anyone else thinks she is beautiful. She lives her life the way she wants.

We are a lot alike. (Except for that beauty thing! I'm more Quasimodo-ish!!!)

We're friends. We enjoy each other but, both of us would rather be alone most of the time. We are both attracted to smart women. She makes crafts and I pretend I like them.

We each do things our own way and rarely allow detours. We argue a lot. It's great.

She really is a physical beauty (sort'a like a lesbian Demi Moore!)

But, if I had never had eyes to see, she would still be the most Beautiful human I have ever known.

gw

(Edited by gary williams on 8/16, 8:05pm)

Post 43

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 4:47pm

I must admit to having conflicting feelings on this "beauty" thing. On the one hand, I prefer looking at beautiful people, and I admire people who are careful about their grooming. On the other hand, I think that it is possible to go too far in terms of artificial enhancements.

So, while I see nothing wrong with wearing nice clothes, appropriate to the situation, or wearing some makeup, or even coloring one's hair, when a person has had extensive plastic surgery, it's no longer "really them" that I'm looking at, so I have no admiration for it.

Or, here's a great example: eyes. Now, we don't have any control over our natural eye color. Some people are blessed with beautiful eyes and some aren't. Mine are OK, but not as beautiful as my father's, who had unforgettable piercing icy-blue eyes. Now, what happens when you see a person with gorgeous, striking eye color... and then you find out they are wearing those colored contact lenses! Isn't there a feeling of betrayal, a feeling that it's not their "real" eyes you were seeing, that they're not "really" beautiful? And yet, they did go to the bother of picking out that color, and it looks great on them. If we were discussing a sweater, you wouldn't fault someone.

So, there is some point at which I draw the line between beauty and trickery/phoniness. For me, it's conveniently drawn between coloring one's hair and having had braces to correct an overbite (me) - and - wearing colored contacts and having a boob job so you can pretend you have big breasts.

Any thoughts on this issue? Where do you all draw the line between beauty and phoniness?

Post 44

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 4:38pm

Carrie,
I think your perspective is great and helps subvert the narrow associations of success that lots of us tend to have been encouraged to pursue, quite arbitrarily.

Whatever Ruth was trying to say, her post does point to something important that does not undercut what you do.

Beauty does bring power, just as money does. That doesn't mean either is bad, but nor are they always put to good use. In fact, they often function in tandem. As most of us know, in middle school and high school the beauty associated with expensive clothes and accessories, which often are indeed attractive, can reinforce the insularity and hierarchy of cliques, often closely associated with wealth. In subtler, less overwhelming ways, beauty and money retain their ability to abet snobbery.

This is one side of the coin, and acknowledging it does not require abandoning an appreciation for those who bring beauty in to the world. In the long run, in fact, what I think the critics of beauty may not understand so much is that the more it becomes widely sought, the more it not only facilitates the individual's perception of his or her own value and the elaboration of a unique personality, but the more its social meaning shifts from any exclusionary function to the festive and collegial one of spreading warmth and style, and improving opportunities for communication. I would venture to say that this is happening more as men get interested in appearance, not just in traditional markers of status like wealth or connections. I'm reminded too of Virginia Postrel's thoughts on the democratizing effects of, and the growing appreciation for, beauty, in her book 2003 book The Substance of Style.

Sorry for the ramble. But it's a big and fascinating subject.

Post 45

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 5:12pm

Laure - do you not think a 'self-made' person includes the body as much as the mind, and to do less is a mind/body dichotomy to at least some degree?

Post 46

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 5:41pm

Ha, I know people who have spent ten times more energy/time/money on their make-ups, hair-does,and bods than what they spend on improving their mind or work skills. That's the sort of mind/body dichotomy I see much more often.

Post 47

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 5:43pm

Is that excusing the flip side? - a false dichotomy is still a false dichotomy.

Post 48

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 7:06pm

Actually, on another note more related to the topic of this thread, personal beauty (as defined in the narrow sense as in this thread) has had no bearing in anything that I have done in life so far. And now it is even more unlikely to have any significance impact in my future. ;-)

Post 49

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 8:38pm

Hong,

It is wonderful that you look as you wish to look without additional effort. For those who don't, the effort may be worth their while.

Post 50

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 9:29pm

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, so bear with me......

It is not unusual for someone, including myself, to be "mislead" by physical beauty. It is possible that someone (I'll speak from a male perspective,) like myself, to run across a rare beauty. You know...Wonderful dark hair, perfect breasts, shimmering eyes, pomegranate lips, able to quote Shakespeare or better yet, Einstein, perform deferential equations, (you know, all the usual girlie stuff).......only to find out we are looking at a....... "transvestite!!!" (Damn you Showtime!!!)

I do not think of men as beautiful. (Though, I wouldn't mind looking like Tom Selleck for a day!) But, the senses can be fooled!

Who ever said that "beauty is skin deep" was more profound than we could ever know. I believe that beauty, "Real beauty", can not be found in/on skin alone.

I am a hypocrite on this, in that when I see, say, a Sandra Bullock movie, I am enthralled with her beauty. However, I have never met Sandy and therefore have no idea if she is really beautiful, pleasant, nice or for that fact, a women at all! (Ooohhh, the Blasphamy!!!!!!)

Being mislead by looks is "Lust"!

Beauty comes from knowing what/whom you are dealing with! Truth!

Not all truth's are beautiful. (Hitler's truth's and Stalin's and Mao's and Pol Pot's and Tim McVeigh's and Osama Bin Laden's.............Their truth's are not "beautiful," but the truth about them can trigger beautiful reactions!)

I don't know...It would seem that once you have passed through someone's personal mine field, found the their truth, then you can come to the point where you can say "this person is beautiful" or you can say "this person is not worth my time." Who they are or if they are truly beautiful cannot be determined by "face value!"

Lusting after a pretty face or body is easy. (Be careful for what you ask for!) Finding beauty, real beauty, requires effort. More effort on the seeker than on whom he seeks!!!

And to all the pretty people......You can make yourself "Good Looking" but, you can't make yourself "Beautiful!"

If you can make sense of the above gibberish, please let me know!!!!

Poets are good at expressing this. (Bastards!!!)

I am not!

gw

Post 51

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 8:13am

Adam,
It's more like I simply accept what I am (not what I wish I am, ha). I've always thought that health and fitness is of most profound value in one's life, and so is productivity. Look and beauty come after that.

I have to admit that my sentiment about this issue is biased by some grossly incompetent people at work who, in my opinion, have spent way too much time/energy/money on their appearance.

Post 52

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 9:24am

Robert, yes, my whole problem with this subject is that my views entail a mind/body dichotomy to some degree. So I have this uncomfortable feeling that I'm not being fully rational. I am not saying that my views are correct, just throwing them out there for discussion. I'm not done thinking about this yet.

One open question in my mind is basically this: Where do you draw the line between "being the best you can be" and "cheating"?

And this applies to intellectual, fitness, and beauty pursuits. Is it OK to use plastic surgery to perfect your looks, is it OK to use steroids to improve your sports performance, would it be OK to use some sort of brain implant to improve your mental performance? In my mind, I frown upon the first two and consider them to be "cheating". And then the mind-body dichotomy kicks in, because I really think brain implants would be a great thing! Sign me up, and make it mandatory for the masses of stupid people out there! (just kidding)

Another question is: Do we have a duty to try to optimize ourselves? In every way, or just in a selected area? Objectivism holds lifelong learning and productive use of one's mind to be great virtues. Optimizing one's physical condition a la Lance Armstrong, well, yeah, that's good too, but I don't put winning the Tour de France on a par with winning a Nobel Prize for physics. What about movie stars who spend half their time working out and getting facials, hair treatments, etc? Well, it's part of their job, I guess. So, I guess my view is that we should try to optimize whatever aspect of ourselves we enjoy optimizing the most, according to our own personal values and career path. But like Hong, I frown upon those that seem to be optimizing their looks and ignoring their mental development.

So, is this mind-body dichotomy really a false dichotomy? Man survives primarily by using his mind, not by physical strength or physical beauty. So, isn't it more important to optimize your mind rather than your body? I am not saying that this applies to everyone. It's fine that there are professional football players, longshoremen, fashion models, etc. And they have to optimize whatever attributes are important for those jobs. But as humans, I think the mind is more important than the body.

Post 53

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 6:19am

Being very new to SOLO I have enjoyed reading this discussion, thanks Carrie, I am sure many people feel very happy when you are finished with them at your salon.
And to all the pretty people......You can make yourself "Good Looking" but, you can't make yourself "Beautiful!"

Yes I agree, no amount of make up, plastic surgery, diets, and whatever else can really hide the cracks in any of us.
However I do believe that some people when max effort is made to look their best, it makes them feel good, confident, and they "sparkle" within themselves. This helps their beauty to shine through. The reason they feel like this initially may or not be within their control ( health reasons) but if it makes them look and more importantly feel better- who cares!.
People with a higher self esteem do not feel as much of a need to change/enhance themselves. They sparkle" already, the beauty shines through to inspire and for all to admire.

Being mislead by looks is "Lust"!

Gary are you saying that you don't think Lust in itself can be beautiful ?

When to people connect even in a lustful way, surely that can still be beautiful,
i have found it nearly to beautiful for words !!

Post 54

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 10:59am

Louise,

About Lust,

I guess it depends where the lust leads. If it leads to a really beautiful person, then I'm all for it. If it leads to a shallow, vacant person then I'd rather not go that way.

I guess lust can be seen as something like beauty, kind'a like a beautiful path in the woods. But sometimes beautiful paths lead to cliffs and falling off is not my idea of fun. It sort of kills the beauty of the journey.

To me lust is exciting and intriguing, the path to thrilling possibilities. But it is the destination that is important. It is destination that makes traveling that path worth it!

Does that make any sense?

gw

Post 55

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 12:55pm

Hong,

I work with them too.

Perfect hair. Clothes with the "right" tags, accessorized perfectly. Never any white after labor day. The perfect scent. (you can smell'em a mile away! I hate that!!!)

Yet, they can't tell you who the Vice-President of the United States is. Or what happened on December 7, 1941 or who the U.S. fought in the Civil War.

They don't know where Iraq is or Israel. They do not know where in China...Japan is located! (Someone really asked me that! Sad!)

Ok, ok, I'm starting to rant....

I really don't dislike pretty folks. By pretty folk I mean those who make it their life's work to be "fabulous" at all times! Some are really good and interesting. More than meets the eye, if you will. But experience has taught me that so damn many of them are as useful as a hollow tree. All pretty bark, no wood. Hollow, vacant, empty.

Not Beautiful.

gw

Post 56

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 1:25pm

Just because some people who are beautiful are not well-rounded, that does not vitiate beauty as an ideal. I disagree with a sense of life that assumes beauty and shallowness/stupidity go hand-in-hand.

Post 57

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 2:54pm

Jody,

I was trying, perhaps poorly, to explain "my" definition of beauty. There are a lot of physically attractive people who "I" find ugly. Some I do not. I am only speaking from my own experiences.

Let me put it this way - There are people here at SOLO that I find attractive. I have no idea what they look like. But, as I read their words, as I hear what they say, I find beauty in who they are. I get to be on the receiving end of their mind. It is in the mind that I find the source of all that is beautiful about a human being.

Do I turn to look at a pretty girl? Yeah. Do I have a thang for Sandra Bullock? Oh, yeah! But if that pretty girl or Sandy turns out to be only pretty on the outside, with nothing on the inside...I'm not interested.

I am talking about what I find to be beautiful...not pretty. Pretty can be paid for. Beauty can not.

gw

Edit: By the way, "my" sense of life does not assume anything. I call'em as "I" see'em!

(Edited by gary williams on 8/17, 2:59pm)

Post 58

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 4:39am

Gary,

On the Lust thing, I get your point and agree to a certain extend, that yes the journey can be thrilling exciting, and sometimes the destination is just an empty shell.

I think that Lust does not need to be just in a one night stand type scenario, as generally when the beer goggles fall off in the morning, it will be far from pretty, although there can be a few exceptions to the rule.

The beauty I am referring to is the Lust when you are either in the early stages of relationship or with a long term partner, and you both lust after each other, then the journey & the destination to me is beauty.

There is a connection there already, you know that the beautiful path is going to lead to a wonderful garden with a waterfall, if we worry that the garden may turn into an over grown dump full of weeds some day, we would never enter into a relationships.

LD

Post 59

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:25pm