How to Kill a Philosophy-A Review of The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/nathaniel_branden/

Michael K—

All I know about Nathaniel and Devers is what I read on his discussion group.

Branden posted a few comments about their parting in January, 2003.

Adam--

It’s interesting that the episode you described was in 1967. That was, of course, well before his break with Ayn Rand. In the seventies, there was a monthly Libertarian Supper Club in Los Angeles. I remember attending a dinner when the presentation was on “The Old and the New Nathaniel Branden.” I don’t recall who the speaker was, but he talked about the drastic changes in Branden’s personality since his break with Rand. The essence of it was that he was considerably more open, more benevolent, and much less judgmental than he had been prior to the break. Branden heard about the talk, then mentioned it when he addressed the club himself a few months later, basically acknowledging that much of it was accurate.

I strongly believe that virtues are more important than flaws. In his “Answer to Ayn Rand,” Branden stated:

“I do not think it inappropriate to mention that all four of the people who denounced us have acknowledged that, in my capacity as psychologist, I have made an incalculable personal contribution to their lives and careers…”

I know that he has made a similar contribution to my life. Perhaps it is the degree of ingratitude (not to mention injustice) he has experienced over the years that has convinced him to be wary of compliments and to always follow his deepest feelings--and let others take responsibility for their own feelings. Compared to the value I have gained from him, the bewildering coldness he exhibited on one isolated occasion is nothing more than a pinprick.

Post 81

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 1:36pm

Thank you, Dennis,

I went there and from what I read, at least at the end of January 2003 he announced that he and Devers were no longer married (in one post) but they still love and see each other (in another post).

It didn't sound so much like a loss to me as a new love arrangement based on values known only to - and satisfactory to - them.

I'm not sad anymore.

Michael

Post 82

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 2:19pm

Robert, as an introvert, I find your statement a gross oversimplification. I do not fear the world, I just prefer solitude. I go out when I'm good and ready. :)

Post 83

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 5:15pm

I emphasized almost in making that statement... and did thus for several reasons, one being the question of whether or not these derive from fear emotions [and if not from fear, whence from], and two being the question of when each of us becomes thus - is this from childhood, from birth, from consequences of life experiences [there is a cause/effect relationship here - what is the cause for this effect?]... thru most of history, answers usually stem from the fear notion, as being the path of least resistance from what is feared - fear being considered as the primal means of obtaining survival [if no fear, then no caution, then no survival]... so, if this is not true, then what is?

Joe - the question remains - WHY do you prefer solitude? Your statement of 'when am good and ready' could be taken to imply, as something from the subconscious, 'when have built up the courage to', which returns to fear...

(Edited by robert malcom on 7/10, 5:39pm)

Post 84

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 6:31pm

I wonder why no one has yet mentioned the fact that Dr Branden admitted to have made mistakes in the past. He doesn’t need to fight Villiant in court because his books are the answer to all that which has been written about him. Have we all forgotten how people lived their life in the sixties? Nathaniel Branden is a giant compared to those who were part of that generation. Ayn Rand, beside her greatness as philosopher, she wanted to enjoy sex just as her heroines in her novels. Barbara B. gave her permission to the affair because she was more interested in Ayn Rand’s teaching than to Nathaniel’s romantic love? Have you noticed how charming and feminine Barbara Branden still is at her age? Can you imagine her at twenty years old? And how many interesting men would have wanted to be part of her life? Frank beside all his kindness and benevolence was he sexually normal? or he needed a third person to enjoy sex, why we are afraid to say that maybe he was the one to suggest Ayn to sleep with Nathaniel. The heroines in Rand’s novels are always contented between two men; whose fantasies were those Frank or Ayn’s? The Brandens were polite enough to think that he was a victim.

Was he really a victim?

If I have interpreted this all wrong, I am proud to be the most naïve man alive.

Post 85

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 7:44pm

Cyro,

You make good questions. However, I say Nathaniel Branden (and maybe Barbara) should sue Valliant, not to prove anything.

But to put a stop to the madness.

Objectivism is a reality-based philosophy. Well, why on earth do its guardians insist on staying outside reality? Let's help them.

Libel laws exist. They were drawn up and determined by many fine legal minds who were not Ayn Rand, Peikoff, the Brandens or anyone else affiliated with the movement.

And if the Valliant side thinks they are so right and "moral," then they can take pleasure in the fact that they can establish a more "objective" interpretation of the law by becoming actual case law and trouncing Nathaniel Branden in the courts, thus proving for once and for all that he is an outright rapist in everything but the physical act.

Does that sound unreasonable? It certainly wasn't unreasonable to publish in a book with Ayn Rand's own writings inserted at strategic places.

So why not present this case to the courts? As I see it, tort and possibly crime have been committed publicly in the name of Objectivism.

Michael
(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 7/10, 7:47pm)

Post 86

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 8:43pm

Mike, mine and many others's answer to Valliant's book is; so what!
The Brandens have decided not to make Mr. Valliant famous, that's all.
Mr Valliant is writing a book on the new testament maybe he will have a better luck there.
Objectivism has nothing to do with this story.
DC

Post 87

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 3:00pm

Ciro states:

Objectivism has nothing to do with this story

One critical thing that sets Objectivism apart from other philosophical systems of the past century is its strong emphasis on ethics. This is what makes the conduct of its spokesmen more significant than it might be for, say, existentialism or linguistic analysis. It’s also what makes this book such a travesty, not only because it makes a transparent effort to whitewash the conduct of the founder, but also because it makes outrageous and baseless accusations against her former associates, thus making it appear that Objectivists advocate massive injustice in the name of idolatry for Ayn Rand.

And that is why we must, as Objectivists, make every effort to denounce it, to let the world know that its author does not speak for us---and to clarify how and why the entire approach to ethics presented in The Passion of Ayn Rand’s Critics is absolutely antithetical to Objectivism.

Post 88

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 3:57pm

Robert, for brevity's sake (mine, not yours ;) ), I refer you to the book THE INTROVERT ADVANTAGE.

I chalk it up to nature. But it doesn't matter, I prefer a lot of solitude, just like I prefer guys. No justification needed.

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 7/11, 3:58pm)

Post 89

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 4:48pm

Dennis, valliant is not specking for me, you or any objectivist, he just made public the journals of ayn rand.

Valliant is not adding anything of his own. He interpreted AR notes just as you and I would have interpreted it.

Are this people lying? Are they changing things around? If they have done so, than I would agree with you to speck up, and do something about, but if the journals are original and really written by AR, I don't see any point in fighting anybody when AR herself makes these accusations against the Brandens.

Best dc

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 7/11, 4:54pm)

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 7/11, 5:10pm)

Post 90

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 5:16pm

Joe - hope it wasn't considered as being insulting - wasn't meant as such, just a curiosity... considering it as a nature is what, one presumes, most would do - sort of taking the matter as a given... will look up the book and see what it says...

Post 91

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 5:53pm

I didn't take it as insulting, Robert, as much as I took it as challenging. I've argued on an older thread that there is a difference between natural introversion as a temperment and shyness, or misanthropism (is that even a word?). I am a little touchy about it at the moment, not because of your post, but because I've learned that there is a negative pyschiatric term for natural introversion, called Asperger's Syndrome. (Supposedly a mild form of autism.) From what I've read, it sounds like the same situation presented in THE INTROVERT ADVANTAGE, but with a negative interpretation. (I am very influenced by Thomas Szasz, and balk at calling such things mental illnesses, even if I believe that brain structure and chemistry has a part in personality.) So don't take my knee-jerks personally ;).

I do think Luke nailed it in his post when he says "introverts tend to form a few close bonds rather than many moderate ones. The challenge for the introvert is to meet enough people so that he can bond with the truly compatible ones to form the close friendships he craves." That recognizes that a person may have certain pyschological needs and temperment, and finds a solution to the very real lonliness that can result for an introvert in an extroverted society without labeling him as ill.
(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 7/11, 5:57pm)

Post 92

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 6:12pm

Dayaamm Ciro!

Did you happen to read Valliant's book? It sounds like you did not. The first half of the book is an analysis of the despicableness and immorality of both Brandens based on their respective books about Ayn Rand.

The second half is not Ayn Rand's journal entries with commentary from Valliant, it is the contrary, Valliant text with Ayn Rand's journal entries cut up and inserted to illustrate what he is saying.

As far as I can tell, Ayn Rand did not ever say that Nathaniel Branden had the "psychology of a rapist" or the "soul of a rapist." That was pure Valliant.

So you see, my friend, Valliant added much that was his own (about two-thirds of the book, maybe more, is his writing, not Rand's).

There is much, much more than the "rapist" business. I have limited my clamor for a lawsuit to those phrases because under USA law, they are the ones that are very easy to prove as having broken the law.

Mr. Valliant is a USA attorney and should have known better. But he hated the Brandens more and he must have been counting on them not suing him for whatever reason.

I still say they should sue him - at least at this point, I strongly feel that Nathaniel should. He would win easily.

Then maybe someone should republish these journal entries without all the defamation.

Michael

Post 93

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 8:25pm

It would seem, then, that an introvert has less such needs - tho more intensely - than an extrovert... is, then, more of a 'self' person, as it were...

BTW - have never heard of such a syndrone - tho am not surprised at there being one, as the psychiacs have need to make [or manufacture] syndrones of sicknesses to satisfy their hatredness of human healthiness...

(Edited by robert malcom on 7/11, 8:28pm)

Post 94

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 5:38am

Joe, I attended a one hour class at work last week that our fitness center offered. The instructor, a fitness center intern, intends to do graduate work on autism and its treatment via physical activity. Studies have shown fitness training effective in reducing the effects of autism significantly. Speculations exist that the mercury in vaccinations triggers autism in children with a genetic predisposition to it, but these remain only speculations and not proven conclusions.

When she described the traits of autism across the spectrum of behavior patterns, I chuckled at myself, thinking, "That sounds like me!" After the class, one of our personnel workers and I chatted for a few minutes. He has a child with autism. He agreed with me that some of the symptoms of autism appeared manifest in some of the engineers here.

The traits diagnosed as autism would not likely be a problem except for their severity. The inability to read social cues leads to feelings of isolation and a downward spiral of further lack of training in social skills and even more isolation. I can relate to that. However, "average" people eventually manage to become functional and to overcome these challenges, whereas "autistic" people usually do not without assistance.

I share your distrust of labels, hence the sneer quotes around the labels in the previous sentence.

I asked the intern what sorts of careers autistic adults pursue. She said that an autistic person's ability to focus obsessively makes him uniquely qualified for work others might consider "boring" like accounting, etc. One famous author with autism has written one or more books likening the thinking patterns of persons with autism to those of animals. She designs highly effective cattle facilities for a living because she can think the way cows think, or so she says.

If "autism" is introversion on overdrive, I wonder what "dysfunction" describes an overabundance of extroversion?

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 7/12, 5:40am)

Post 95

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 7:26am

"I wonder what "dysfunction" describes an overabundance of extroversion?"

Politician? Serial rapist?

Post 96

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 7:53am

Mike,

I was going to say something like that, but, since extroverts take everything personally, I didn't want a politician or serial rapist hunting me down for revenge. Good luck hiding from the extroverts.

Sarah

(Edited by Sarah House
on 7/12, 7:53am)

Post 97

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 1:10pm

If NB isn't suing Valliant, he's acting in his own self-interest in some way. I can see not suing him, at this point in his life. It would've been a hell of an old fashioned, down-home back yard ass whuppin', though. But, nowadays notoriety and negative PR can come at you fast- the whole guilt-by-association thing gets overtrumped.

Personally, I'm waiting for this book on the Old Testament. I'm convinced that he won't disappoint me, and I look forward to crawling all over him. First this Ayn Rand thing, now The Bible. This dude has one hell of an agenda, I'll give him that. If he had true balls, though, he would've taken on the Koran- that would've been fun to watch.

Post 98

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 2:31pm

Thanks, Luke, for the anecdote. I just read a piece in Rolling Stone about the connection between mercury and autism, scary stuff. It's interesting what you write, my friend's brother has autism, and he was just recently moved into a group home because his parents are out of it. My friend has been told that his brother is doing a LOT better, more social, and they are wondering why he was diagnosed with autism. (His brother is now 30.) So I find it interesting and hopeful that your experiences with the trainer point to an answer.

I just realized that this thread is about Valiant, so I will stop hijacking, sorry...

Post 99

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 8:00pm