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Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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Dear SOLO friends,

I am leaving SOLO, and I didn't want to go without giving my reasons and saying goodbye to all of you. I started my time here with an article about what SOLO had done for me, and I wanted to end with another thank you. First my explanation.

I think moderating David for insulting Joe was very unfair. Of course, the owner of a site may do as he pleases, but I think it's a sad state of affairs when what pleases him is to be treated differently than the other people on his site. If insulting people is wrong and creates a bad atmosphere, it is wrong for everyone, including the lowest and the highest. If it is just a part of passionate dialog, then that should apply to everyone too. Would this make me leave SOLO if it had been someone else who was moderated? Maybe. It certainly does when that someone is my dear husband. I cannot stand by and watch such unfairness to a person I know to be virtuous, passionate, kind to the deserving, funny, intelligent, devoted to his values, and a wonderful husband and father. Injustice to a person in general makes me angry, and it makes me very sad when it originates in others that I value. But injustice to the person whom I admire most, love ferociously, and would protect like a mother bear is intolerable to me.

I will miss so many of you on SOLO. Here I have found Jennifer Iannolo, whom I have welcomed into my inner circle, my home, my family, and my heart. If SOLO had done nothing for me but bring her to me, I would be grateful. I have had a chance to listen to and discuss with Barbara Branden, who was for me in the past only a voice in a beloved book and has become a real woman for whom I can have real admiration. I have laughed at Robert Bidinotto's jokes and enjoyed his serious posts, been moved by James Kilbourne, learned something about talents and happiness from Barbara Branden, clarified my own ideas by arguing unschooling with Phil Coates, picked up a new phrase from MSK (Dayayaaamm!), seen my old friend Aquinas come out of his shell and speak his mind more openly, found Adam Reed to be a likeminded parent with older children who bolsters my own confidence about raising Livy, thought even more analytically about preserving romance because of Luke Setzer, saw my friend Jason come into his own as a motive force and editor at SOLO, and, like I said in my first article, felt surrounded by community even when I was alone. Thank you all for those things.

There are certainly people I don't like, policies I don't like, and ideas I don't like on SOLO, but even now, sitting here feeling angry, hurt, and protective, my feelings for SOLO are mostly positive. When I was a child, I was taught a song about church:

The Church is not a building,
The Church is not a steeple,
The Church is not a resting place,
The Church is the people.

So I will not think of SOLO as a website, as a set of policies I disagree with, as a forum where I no longer feel I can stay. I will think of SOLO as the people, most of whom I found value in, learned from, laughed with, and enjoyed. In that way, I will still think of myself as a SOLOist. Happy lives, constant growth, and passionate reason to you all.

Kelly Reynolds Elmore


Post 1

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 9:49amSanction this postReply
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Kelly,

I'm really heartbroken to see things end up this way. If you do decide to come to New York as you had planned, send me an e-mail so you, David, my wife Rita and I can go out for dinner.

Jim


Post 2

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 10:02amSanction this postReply
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Kelly,

Best wishes to you.

I can't help but think that with a tad bit more leniency, and less of a rush to make David's moderation a public issue, this could have turned out quite differently.

It still has the potential to do so, but only if the right actions are taken by those with whom the power resides.  It doesn't take much to count David's current period of moderation as fair warning/punishment (but compromise might be evil to some people).

Cheers,

Laj.


Post 3

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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After some time has passed and we have all had the opportunity to let the passions, offenses and hurt feelings of the moment cool a bit, I hope we can generate a "lessons learned" thread and formalize those lessons into SOLO policies to prevent future explosions of this nature.

"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them."  --Albert Einstein


Post 4

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 12:35pmSanction this postReply
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I suggest a SOLO arbiter committee with "cool headed" Luke as one of its members. ;-) 
Now Luke, you can formalize your judgement now. 

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 6/14, 12:36pm)


Post 5

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 1:26pmSanction this postReply
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"Cool-Head Luke." Wasn't there a movie...?

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Post 6

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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"Cool Hand Luke" with Paul Newman. The convict is killed for repeated insubordination after vandalizing a parking meter.

Jim


Post 7

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 3:47pmSanction this postReply
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Jim, I sense an editorial subtext in your mini-review...

;^)


Post 8

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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"What we have here is a failure to communicate". I think that's from the same movie ;-).

Jim


Post 9

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
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Kelly, it is tragic that you will no longer be here.  I would have enjoyed getting to know you better, since I have enjoyed the discussions we have had.  Would that a few other people had exercised a bit more wisdom and much less drama.

Post 10

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 6:54pmSanction this postReply
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Kelly,

I've got one thing to say about all this:

Dayamm!

You will be missed around here...

Michael

Post 11

Tuesday, November 1, 2005 - 11:24pmSanction this postReply
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     As has been my wont, (and, as some may have 'induced' thereby), I have been resurrecting some old posts. Until this one, all have been according to my personally-peculiar subject-interests re 'discussing'.

     This one seems one not necessary to...discuss...so much as merely worth re-thinking about, the next time one feels like, well, 'flaming.' I've read many of Kelly's posts elsewhere, and caught several references to 'David Elmore' and never put 2 and 3 together (other than as superficially '23').

     With this one I did, and find it unfortunate that flaming (which I have occasionally harangued, not flamed, about) can have such sad consequences.

      As Rand would say, "Think Twice"...

LLAP
J:D


Post 12

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 6:08pmSanction this postReply
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What's the deal with thoughtsonobjectivism?  David no longer posts there either.

Post 13

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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I don't know. I'm actually surprised it is still around with the overly strict moderation I saw there such as Shayne laying into you for innocuous comments. For sites by ex-SOLOists, I'd recommend Hawking's www.wethethinking.com as a much more friendly and interesting site than TOO.


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Post 14

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 6:29amSanction this postReply
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It is likely that many people here have been online longer than they have been Objectivists.  One of the rules of netiquette is "Do not be offensive -- and do not take offense."  Even when I violate the first part, I hold to the second.  See the discussion on other people's feelings in Dissent.  If someone is pissed off, it is my fault?  I mean if some morons are so stupid that they cannot understand the simplest statement of fact, then they are just pigfuckers and that's all there is to it and it is not my fault, is it?  But I am responsible for my own feelings -- at the very least.  So, I take negative engagements as a learning experience.  I always liked the scene -- probably the only good scene -- in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, when the Merrye Menne have Friar Tuck harnessed to the cart and they make him pull them back to camp and when they unharness him, he lifts up his eyes and says, "Thank you, Lord, for the lesson in humility." 

Success speaks for itself.  Wethethinking and Whateverelseobjectivist may well outcompete SOLO -- for now,  however, I come here to post because I get the best reflections of my own work -- and more to the point the ideas of others here are generally deeper, finer, and clearer than my own.  I do not find many people smarter than me among Objectivists online, except here.  So, here I am.  And I appreciate the lessons in humility.


Post 15

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 10:51amSanction this postReply
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Ironically Michael I couldn't have said it better myself. Sanctioned.

---Landon


Post 16

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 11:09amSanction this postReply
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I'm new to SOLO and I have no idea what this thread is about(other than a member leaving) after reading the original post. Could someone enlighten me? Here or in a message is fine.

Post 17

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 11:27amSanction this postReply
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Several months ago the member's husband got in a heated argument with the management stepped on some toes and was placed on moderation.  An apology would've ended the moderation but it wasn't forthcoming and so he, his wife (the member who started this thread) and a few others left Solo over it. 

Place got a little stressful and unpleasant for a while but it got better.

---Landon


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Post 18

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 1:29pmSanction this postReply
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I don't post to Solo anymore but I decided to make an exception here to correct a misrepresentation of my site, http://www.thoughtsonobjectivism.com.

This site was not created to compete with Solo. It was created long before the events related to this thread, as a repository for the articles a deceased friend of mine, James Sedgwick, wrote. The Certainty Site is certainly the best feature of this site. Anyone who claims it isn't "interesting" hasn't looked at it.

The forum is a triviality. It took me less than an hour to set up, and its main purpose was to permit a handful of friends of mine to correspond and to show one of them how easy it was to do. It was never imagined to be something to compete with Solo. Now a few of my friends do have some idea of creating a public Objectivist forum. I've got my own ideas on how one ought to be implemented. But the forum there is nothing but an "electronic livingroom" of mine--and I certainly have the right to kick people out who don't fit in.

Yeah, moderation is strict, "boo hoo." I don't have to let anyone into my livingroom I don't like. Frankly I find it incredible that this should have to be pointed out, particularly when the forum is private. And I find it to be in extremely poor taste to be injecting hearsay about unverifiable incidents that happened between two people in my private forum into this public forum. Not that it's any of your business, but Robert and I get along just fine. It so happens that he doesn't have the disease that so many nowadays do: shameless touchiness.


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Post 19

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 3:11pmSanction this postReply
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Kelly -- Sorry that you'll be leaving. I haven't followed the particular details of the posts that are driving you away, but I'll offer here the words I gave to Barbara Branden when she left (post 102, August 4, 2005 under "Drooling Beast"), words that I generally follow myself. Hope to have you back some day:

"For whatever it's worth, I think it's unfortunate and unnecessary for Barbara and James to exit this forum. Let's say there's a room of 1,700 individuals, most of whom you love talking with and listening to. Sure, there are a few folks might not like, you might find boring or you might find to be a royal pain in the butt when they start going on about certain things in certain ways.

"Does it make sense to refuse to enter that room, to miss the interesting and enlightening exchanges with most of the 1,700 folks because of a few that you find it tough to stomach? No! Just ignore their conversations. Don't stand in the corner where they're holding forth. Ignore them. Or deal with them only on a select basis on select topics."


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