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Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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There has been some discussion lately, regarding the nature of observed and construed "animal intelligence"...and how such an phenomena may or may not differ from our every day experience of human intelligence, so I thought some may find this article from Scientific American to be an interesting supplement to the current discussion(s).




RCR


http://geowords.com/lostlinks/b36/7.htm

Even though chimpanzees pass the mirror test, they do not seem to conceive of others' -- or even their own -- mental states
by Daniel J. Povinelli.

 Let me begin with a point on which Gordon Gallup, Jr., and I agree: the reactions of chimpanzees when they see themselves in mirrors reveal that these animals possess a self-concept. Furthermore, we agree that this self-concept appears to be restricted to the great apes and humans. Beyond this point, however, our views diverge. Gallup speculates that the capacity for self-recognition may indicate that chimpanzees are aware of their own internal, psychological states and understand that other individuals possess such states as well. I have come to doubt this high-level interpretation of the chimpanzees' reactions to seeing themselves in mirrors. More generally, I question whether chimpanzees possess the deep psychological understanding of behavior that seems so characteristic of our species. In what follows, I describe why I have come to this conclusion, and I offer an explanation of how humans and chimpanzees can behave so similarly and yet understand this behavior in radically different ways.

[snip]

Daniel J. Povinelli.directs the center's division of behavioral biology, which studies cognitive development in both chimpanzees and young children. Over the years Povinelli has become a friend and colleague of Gallup's, but his view of the chimpanzee's mental abilities has diverged from that of his mentor. "It took a lot of patience on the part of the chimpanzees," he says, "but they've finally taught me that they're not hairy human children."


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Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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RCR wrote, quoting Povinelli:





http://geowords.com/lostlinks/b36/7.htm

Even though chimpanzees pass the mirror test, they do not seem to conceive of others' -- or even their own -- mental states by Daniel J. Povinelli.


Primates and other animals clearly feel emotions. This seems to raise the question as to whether nonhuman animals are aware of emotions in other nonhuman animals.

The answer seems fairly obvious. But first, let's question 1)  how aware are children of the emotional states of others, and 2) by what means do they attain this awareness?

Nonhuman animals often exhibit the same awareness, more or less, and acquire it by the same means, more or less, as children.
Let me begin with a point on which Gordon Gallup, Jr., and I agree: the reactions of chimpanzees when they see themselves in mirrors reveal that these animals possess a self-concept. Furthermore, we agree that this self-concept appears to be restricted to the great apes and humans. Beyond this point, however, our views diverge. Gallup speculates that the capacity for self-recognition may indicate that chimpanzees are aware of their own internal, psychological states and understand that other individuals possess such states as well.  

I have come to doubt this high-level interpretation of the chimpanzees' reactions to seeing themselves in mirrors. More generally, I question whether chimpanzees possess the deep psychological understanding of behavior that seems so characteristic of our species.
That is the wrong question to ask. One would not expect "deep psychological understanding of behavior" in the same way a far more intelligent species like humans would exhibit.

But even then, do primates and other animals exhibit SOME understanding of the emotional states of their own or even other species, perhaps on the level of a young child? I think the primate studies indicate this. For that matter, animals studies in the wild suggest such awareness. 
In what follows, I describe why I have come to this conclusion, and I offer an explanation of how humans and chimpanzees can behave so similarly and yet understand this behavior in radically different ways.

[snip]

Daniel J. Povinelli.directs the center's division of behavioral biology, which studies cognitive development in both chimpanzees and young children. Over the years Povinelli has become a friend and colleague of Gallup's, but his view of the chimpanzee's mental abilities has diverged from that of his mentor. "It took a lot of patience on the part of the chimpanzees," he says, "but they've finally taught me that they're not hairy human children."


No, and it is a mistake to assume that because other animals do not behave exactly like humans that they can have no awareness of the emotional states of others.

The right question to ask is: How much do young children know about the emotions of others and how do the attain that awareness?

I believe the answer is: No more than many animals, and they attain it the same way animals obtain it, by observing and interpreting the behavior of others.

If animals had no awareness of the emotional states of others, we would have to interpret a screeching band of angry chimps as either a random event--they just all happened to screech at the same time--or as a conditioned response instead of an awareness that other chimps are actually upset.

Animals are not humans. But I'm astonished at how far people go to deny that they have intelligence, abstract thought, consciousness, self-awareness, and awareness of the emotional states of others of their species.

Anyone who has ever had a dog whose behavior is a reflection of our mood can answer this at least anecdotally. I've seen dogs go to a person who is quietly grieving and place their heads, uncharacteristically, in the lap of that person, an act both of awareness and comforting.

Nathan Hawking


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Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 11:07pmSanction this postReply
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Nathan Hawking:

"Anyone who has ever had a dog whose behavior is a reflection of our mood can answer this at least anecdotally. I've seen dogs go to a person who is quietly grieving and place their heads, uncharacteristically, in the lap of that person, an act both of awareness and comforting. "

This natural inclination and intuition towards the behavior of our animal friends is tempting to embrace, but one of the main troubles I have in accepting this kind of observed evidence as self-evident proof of anything in particular regarding the actual nature of animal mental states is expressed nicely by the theorist Peter Carruthers, who writes:

"Since we have no idea how to imagine, from the inside, a perceptual state that isn’t phenomenally conscious, the fact that we find ourselves thinking that the mental states of non-human animals must be phenomenally conscious ones is little to be wondered at." 

http://www.philosophy.umd.edu/people/faculty/pcarruthers/animal-consciousness-might-not-matter.pdf 




RCR

 


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Monday, June 6, 2005 - 12:03amSanction this postReply
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RCR:
This natural inclination and intuition towards the behavior of our animal friends is tempting to embrace, but one of the main troubles I have in accepting this kind of observed evidence as self-evident proof of anything in particular regarding the actual nature of animal mental states is expressed nicely by the theorist Peter Carruthers, who writes:
That's why I added the "anecdotal" part.
"Since we have no idea how to imagine, from the inside, a perceptual state that isn’t phenomenally conscious, the fact that we find ourselves thinking that the mental states of non-human animals must be phenomenally conscious ones is little to be wondered at." 
The problem with this line of thinking is that it's no less true for other human beings. We ASSUME that other people "feel" as we do because they behave much as we do and express themselves similarly. But do we have absolute proof that others actually feel as we do?

No. We have only indirect proof. I seem to recall Chalmers using this line of thinking in his most recent book on consciousness.

And this indirect proof seems to be as true for many animals as for us. Animals have many analogs to our brain structures, and many analogs to our behaviors.

I am loathe to anthropomorphize, but it's very difficult on a personal level to watch a mother gorilla or orangutan interact tenderly with her child, or watch her express anguish and grief at the death of her baby and be comforted by others, without concluding that they also have analogous feelings. This is not scientific evidence, but it's awfully damned compelling.

These do not seem the behaviors of stupid, instinctive brutes whose only automatic concern is reproduction and eating.

Nathan Hawking


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Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Ross,

When was the article written? I couldn't find it on your link. Attorney Steve Wise's Rattling the Cage is a handy reference for various experiments (and critiques thereof) for determining the abilities of chimps. When I get a chance, I'll share his view of why Povinelli falls short. But if Povinelli's view succeeds, I'm not sure why it should matter to an Objectivist anyway. In the Objectivist canon, empathy has rarely if ever been mentioned.

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 6/07, 12:54pm)


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Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
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Just a side note: I’ve been reading “Animals in Translation” (Amazon link), and the author cites evidence that dogs have evolved to form a special ability to “read” humans. Insofar as this correct, dogs may be the wrong species to use when discussing the abilities of animals in general.

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Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - 7:13pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Ross,

I looked it up, and it's from 1998. I'll share Wise's discussion of Povinelli when I get the chance. [Edit: in the meantime, here is a link to the Gallup's companion article to Povinelli's - http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:JgfDdAvq22wJ:www.zoosemiotics.helsinki.fi/Can%2520Animals%2520EmpathizeYES.doc+%22can+animals+empathize%22+%2B+yes&hl=en&start=1. Both articles were published adjacently in that 1998 Scientific American, and I think it's better for us to post and read them both.]

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 6/07, 7:31pm)


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Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
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Kernon:
Just a side note: I’ve been reading “Animals in Translation” (Amazon link), and the author cites evidence that dogs have evolved to form a special ability to “read” humans. Insofar as this correct, dogs may be the wrong species to use when discussing the abilities of animals in general.
Interesting point. But rather than invalidate the notion, perhaps it actually strengthens it.

Think of it this way: dogs have only been domesticated for sure for 15,000-150,000 years, with the most certain evidence favoring the earlier period. Even accepting the longer period, is it more likely that dogs evolved new cognitive structures, or modified and refined existing abilities based upon our selective breeding for canine-human interaction?

We should bear in mind that dogs, even in their wild cousins, are highly social with other dogs, pack animals, and exhibit sensitivity to each other's emotional states. Many who study dogs feel that dogs simply expanded their existing social nature to include another species, humans. By doing so, maybe they just made it easier to recognize a sensitivity to emotional states we might not discern so easily in dog to dog interaction.

As for positing the nature of animals in general, I think that's probably a mistake when it comes to something like abstract thought and emotion. It seems pretty species dependent. The nature of primates varies even among close relatives, like the bonobo and chimpanzee.

Nathan Hawking


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Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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Ross,

Should I bother putting Wise's bit out there? This thread seems to have lost interest.

Jordan


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Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan, you wrote:
In the Objectivist canon, empathy has rarely if ever been mentioned.
One of the shortcomings I have found with Objectivism over the years is precisely over empathy. It is an emotion. In Objectivism, it is often packaged into the concept of Altruism, which is a philosophy.

(This is one of the progenitor causes of Randroids. There is a reverse-evolutionary tie-in with Randroids somewhere too, but I'll save that for later...)

More work needs to be done here.

Michael


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Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara did post once that Rand said to her that she would have liked to have found some justification for Animal Rights.

Since we have no idea how to imagine, from the inside, a perceptual state that isn’t phenomenally conscious, the fact that we find ourselves thinking that the mental states of non-human animals must be phenomenally conscious ones is little to be wondered at. 
Quite right. I think we humans do often over anthropormorphize animals. However, some people go much further than animals. They see intelligence and emotion in fish, insects, trees, cuddley toys and even rocks. Anyone remember the "pet-rock" craze in the 80's?

The question you need to ask yourselves as a reality check is: "can you really conceive that animals are able to think and feel the same way about each other as we do?"

Not likely if you ask me.

(Edited by Marcus Bachler on 6/11, 12:36pm)


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Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 12:47pmSanction this postReply
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Masrcus,

The pet rock craze was in the 70's, right before I went to Brazil (1973). One of the last things I read about in a newspaper before boarding the plane to get out of here was that there was an organization being founded to treat abandoned pet rocks, including the training of psychologists.

It was a pretty nice flight back then...

Michael


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Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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Olá Michael!

You were in Brazil for over 30 years?

You must be a bona-fide Brazilian in heart, mind and spirit by now.

Bom Dia :-)


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Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 1:28pmSanction this postReply
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Bom dia, amigo.

Estou feliz que você está falando um pouco em português. Tem pouca gente por aí que fala aquela língua. No entanto, se gostar das "minas" da Ipanema, é preciso um esforcinho para gozar de tantas lindérrimas. Como Vinícius de Moraes escreveu, "As feias que me perdoem, mas beleza é fundamental..."

I am actually bi-national at heart. I want to become multi-national, but you must have two before three - getting there though.

Michael


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Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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Ha! Dayam!

Glad I could give you some practice. I realize that it is not often spoken.

"A beleza é verdade. A verdade, Beleza."


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Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 2:49pmSanction this postReply
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Michael (post #9)

In the Objectivist canon, empathy has rarely if ever been mentioned.

One of the shortcomings I have found with Objectivism over the years is precisely over empathy. It is an emotion. In Objectivism, it is often packaged into the concept of Altruism, which is a philosophy.

(This is one of the progenitor causes of Randroids. There is a reverse-evolutionary tie-in with Randroids somewhere too, but I'll save that for later...)

More work needs to be done here.
Bingo! I couldn't agree with you more.

I believe there is much more to emotion than Rand knew, or was interested in knowing. She was so intent on not falling into the subjectivist justifications for the validity of knowledge (i.e. "It's true because it feels true.") which Chris Sciabarra describes in Ayn Rand The Russian Radical, that she ignored many of its life-serving properties. Among these properties is the basis for empathy.

And, as you say, empathy is lumped in with altruism, as a package deal.

The two parts -- (1) feel what someone else feels (empathy), and (2) therefore put your efforts in their service (altruism), should be clearly distinguished. You can have one without the other.

Branden in some of his works and Marsha Enright (in JARS volume 4 #1) have filled in some of these gaps. But there is still much more required to put our understanding of emotion on a firm footing.

I am currently working on an article, based on the work of  Silvan Tomkins (1911-1991), an American psychologist. Tomkins  did place the study of emotion on a firm footing, and identified an enormous number of its properties, distinct from our conceptual faculty.

He based his thinking on observations of emotion in infants and identified 9 basic, "wired-in" affects (biological-psychological phenomena that are in all of us, present at birth). These are interest, enjoyment, surprise, distress (crying), fear, anger, deflation, "dissmell" (reaction to wanting to keep something away from us) and disgust (reaction to wanting to eliminate something that we have taken in, not necessarily food -- could be an idea, feelings for a person we no longer want in our lives, etc.)

I am attempting to integrate Tomkins's work into an objectivist context. I think emotion is still a large problem for many objectivists to deal with. Yet it is a crucial part of our realities and requires our understanding to live a rewarding, productive, emotionally rich life.

SOLO is the only, official objectivist forum which acknowledges the crucial importance of emotion to being fully alive. What a joy to have come across it!

Steve Shmurak

PS. Michael -- I'd love to hear what the reverse evolutionarly tie-in with Randroids is.


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Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
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Nathan - thanks for your comments (I don't visit the site often enough, and so, posts are sometimes hidden away behind the last 100 messages). Regarding:
As for positing the nature of animals in general, I think that's probably a mistake when it comes to something like abstract thought and emotion
. Right — that was my only major point.

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 4:40pmSanction this postReply
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Marcus:
The question you need to ask yourselves as a reality check is: "can you really conceive that animals are able to think and feel the same way about each other as we do?"
Many species, even in the wild, exhibit a sense of loss and grief at the death of another.

Anyone who has heard the recording of Koko the gorilla's mournful cries upon the death of her pet cat cannot help but be moved. One has to work hard at denial to claim those plaintive sounds mean absolutely nothing.

So, not only can we conceive of animals with deep feelings for others, but we can see it in action.

Nathan Hawking
 





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Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 5:27pmSanction this postReply
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Jordon:

"Should I bother putting Wise's bit out there? This thread seems to have lost interest."


Yes, please do. I'm sorry to have neglected your responces here, it has been a busy week for me. Btw, that link you posted to Gallop's responce didn't get me anywhere...would you mind checking it?

Best,


Christian

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 5:33pmSanction this postReply
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Nathan, empathy is NOT about someone having deep feelings FOR others--it is about someone having the ability to understand the feelings OF others.

re: Koko & the cat
We only have evidence supporting the notion that Koko mourned KOKO's loss of that cat--not evidence that Koko understood what the cat was going through.

Nathan, you seem emotionally-compelled to slant interpretation of this evidence in a manner that confirms your intuition--the intuition that your catchy, anecdotal "anyone who owns a dog" phrase speaks toward. My disgruntled mention of feelings disrupting judgments may make you picture me as a cold, unfeeling person (ala ye' ole' reason-passion dichotomy). But I am not an unemotional logic machine.

Nathan, I've cried heartily before, upon witnessing the suffering OF others--and so deeply and mournfully that I laid down in exhaustion. I'm talking about a cry that leaves you breathless, where your whole mind and body squeezes for everything its got--to try to make one more sound, to try to wail another wail, but without any air to do it. I've even cried deeply (streams of tears, not drops) for the plight of animals.

But my "empathy" ought to be shelved during a logical discussion of interpretation of the evidence. And Nathan, you haven't made it clear to me that you have shelved your lightning-quick value-judgments, when you argue for animal cognition. In fact, from my view, what you've displayed is just the opposite.

I fear that you'll respond--like the mystic--that, if I don't get it now, then I won't ever get it (ie. that you can't "teach" it to me). Is that true Nathan (have I missed the revelation--the one that you didn't)? Do you have a sound syllogism taking premises from research--and leading to a conclusion of animal cognition? Or are we supposed to "see" it like you say you do?

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 6/12, 5:35pm)


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