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Post 60

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 4:37pmSanction this postReply
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Any conversation which requires one or the other participant to start a sentence with this 7-word string is either dishonest or, at least, wrong-headed. One of the participants in a conversation requiring this word-string is either being dishonest or wrong-headed -- which means not aimed at a mutual understanding. Think about it.

I agree. It was your friend, Dwyer, who began his attempt at obfuscation with those words. Reread his post. Then think about it.


Post 61

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
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If you interpret it the way that you insist on doing, yes; what I'm disputing is that that is the only valid interpretation.

 

Formal logic is not a matter of “interpretation.” You may, of course, cite professional logicians who claim that “All S is not P” can sometimes mean, if one feels like it and so wishes to interpret it, “No S is P”.

 

As for your syllogism (sorry I misquoted it earlier) it is still invalid. In Aristotelian logic – that is to say, logic – you cannot quantify the predicate. A proposition like “Tom, Dick, & Harry are (all) people” is invalid for syllogistic reasoning. The predicate term never takes any particle of quantification such as “all” or “some.”

 

The reason it is invalid is that “Tom, Dick, & Harry are all people” makes two assertions; in Aristotelian logic – that is to say, logic – a proposition makes one assertion.

 

Properties are only in principle completely deducible from the nature of the substance in which they inhere. Gravity is a property of mass, but not completely deducible from the nature of mass.

 

According to general relativity, gravity is not a property of mass at all.

 

As for Newtonian models, “mass”, “length”, “time”, and “angle” are fundamental dimensions of measurement. They can be defined in terms of other things (i.e., mass can be defined as “a body’s resistance to a change in its motion”) but aside from that, they are not entities and don’t have properties.

 

Gravity correlates with mass – vary the latter, the former varies as well – but that in no way proves that the relation is one of effect to its cause, or property to its underlying substance.

 

There's no mechanistic explanation of gravity, even if you say that there has got to be (in order for gravity to exist or to be true).

 

I don’t know what you mean by a “mechanistic explanation” of gravity. If you mean a purely material “particle” explanation of gravity, then you’d be right. More proof, therefore, that gravity and matter correlate with each other but that the former is not a property of the latter. They are simply two different, if correlative, things.

 

Same with mind and brain.

 

You're just saying that everything is a something (that everything's got identity).

 

There’s nothing in the physical nature of brain tissue (or any matter) that translates into any experience of mind, such as express, conceive, consider, think, ponder, wonder, obsess, delight, disgust, good, bad, right, wrong, etc.

 

But there's no "wetness" in a molecule of water, even if wetness emerges when several of these non-wet molecules coalesce.

 

“Wetness” never emerges irrespective of how many molecules associate with one another unless a perceiving mind happens to be there. “Wetness” is not a property of water; it’s a subjective experience. As such, “wetness” is an epiphenomenon; nothing further can be explained by a concept like “wetness” that can’t be explained more precisely by reference to the concept “water molecules.” Not so with terms referring to mind and terms referring to brain tissue. No reference to any aspect of brain tissue will explain (let alone clarify) a concept like “awe”, “surprise”, “joy”, “concentration”, etc.

 

In the same manner there isn't "mental-ness" somewhere in an inactive physical brain -- even if mental-ness emerges from an active one.

 

I never said anything about “mentalness” – a very odd, very un-Randian term that you’ve coined to cover what is a very simple thing: mind. I’m claiming the existence of a non-material entity called “mind” that correlates (“interpenetrates” is a better word) with “brain” and that is obviously distinct from it.

 

All attempts to deny that “property dualism” amounts to anything other than “brain tissue determines thoughts – or is the ‘cause’ of thoughts -- because “thoughts” are a property of “brain tissue” unintelligible. If you wish to call the only intelligible version of property dualism “physical reductionism”, that’s fine. Then you can make even bigger fools of yourselves by claiming “we agree with property dualism [which is unintelligible] when we claim that thoughts are properties of brain tissue but have characteristics completely unexplainable by reference to brain tissue (or anything else that’s physical), but we disagree with physical reductionism [which may be invalid but at least it’s intelligible]. So much for Objectivists on the Dissent board getting practice in arguing their philosophy.

 

Did you even bother to read the short link that Merlin provided (where epiphenomenalism was merely one of many theories about property dualism, and not necessarily the correct one)?

 

Yes, I did. I don’t take anything on Wikipedia at face value. I guess you and merlin do.


Post 62

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 10:16pmSanction this postReply
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Tom, Dick and Harry are not fools.
Tom, Dick and Harry are all people.
Therefore, all people are not fools.



Another point I didn't have the chance to post earlier is that your minor premise is invalid -- or rather, nonsensical gibberish -- for the following reason:

Both of your premises can be converted to singular propositions. For example, the major premise is merely a compound form of the following three propositions:

"Tom is not a fool. Dick is not a fool. Harry is not a fool."

Alas, when we convert your minor premise to singular propositions, the quantifying particle on the predicate must STILL be carried over; viz.,

Tom is all people; Dick is all people; Harry is all people.

Sorry, but that's the way conversion works -- the rules governing treatment of the predicate's extension don't change just because you might like them to. "Interpret away" all you want; a sentence like "Tom is all people" is logical gibberish. If "Tom is all people. Dick is all people. Harry is all people" are gibberish singly, to compound them in one proposition joined by "and" won't make them not-gibberish.

So much for attempts to quantify the predicate.

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Post 63

Friday, August 1, 2008 - 6:44amSanction this postReply
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Claude Shannon wrote:
All attempts to deny that “property dualism” amounts to anything other than “brain tissue determines thoughts – or is the ‘cause’ of thoughts -- because “thoughts” are a property of “brain tissue” unintelligible. If you wish to call the only intelligible version of property dualism “physical reductionism”, that’s fine. Then you can make even bigger fools of yourselves by claiming “we agree with property dualism [which is unintelligible] when we claim that thoughts are properties of brain tissue but have characteristics completely unexplainable by reference to brain tissue (or anything else that’s physical), but we disagree with physical reductionism [which may be invalid but at least it’s intelligible]. So much for Objectivists on the Dissent board getting practice in arguing their philosophy.
That's your unsubstantiated opinion. At the most general level, property dualism says there are some entities that have both physical and mental properties -- humans and many other animals -- and there is no such thing as a purely mental or non-material entity. The full relationship between brains and thoughts is not known, but physical reductionism is the least feasible and contradicts property dualism. So much for your attempts at rational debate. By the way, what do you affirm -- idealism, materialism, substance dualism or other?


Post 64

Friday, August 1, 2008 - 7:50amSanction this postReply
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Thomistic Catholicism teaches that individual happiness comes from the freely chosen adherence to God's law, not violence, blind faith or predestination.
The point is that you're not free to disobey God's law, even if you disagree with it and choose not to adhere to it. You suffer the punishment just the same. That's what a commandment is. You must do what you're told.
One can only take this so far, of course. Abraham the would be child-killer is admired by all these faiths. Judaism doesn't call for "unquestioning" obedience, since not belief, but adherence matters. Yeshiva students question and debate everything.
Yes, but their questioning and debating concerns the nature of God's law, not the necessity of adhering to it. If God gives you a commandment, you can't question it; you can't get God to agree to cut you some slack or convince him that it's a bad idea. You must obey or suffer the consequences.

- Bill

Post 65

Friday, August 1, 2008 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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Regarding my syllogism:

Tom, Dick and Harry are not fools.
Tom, Dick and Harry are all people.
Therefore, all people are not fools.

Claude wrote,
Another point I didn't have the chance to post earlier is that your minor premise is invalid -- or rather, nonsensical gibberish -- for the following reason:

Both of your premises can be converted to singular propositions. For example, the major premise is merely a compound form of the following three propositions:

"Tom is not a fool. Dick is not a fool. Harry is not a fool."

Alas, when we convert your minor premise to singular propositions, the quantifying particle on the predicate must STILL be carried over; viz.,

Tom is all people; Dick is all people; Harry is all people.
Claude, did you really think that when I said Tom, Dick and Harry are all people, I meant it individually and not collectively? And if I meant it collectively, as I obviously did, then the second premise CANNOT be converted to singular propositions. If you interpret the premises the way I intended, the reasoning is sound.

- Bill

Post 66

Friday, August 1, 2008 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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Claude, did you really think that when I said Tom, Dick and Harry are all people, I meant it individually and not collectively?

It's irrelevant what you meant. What matters is what you actually posted. What you posted was "A, B, & C are all people." An "A" proposition has its subject fully distributed to the predicate; what applies to the aggregate, applies to each individual within that aggregate -- check your logic books (if you have any). So the above proposition can be converted "A is all people", "B is all people", and "C is all people." The only way to make these intelligible is to remove the quantifying particle from the predicate and go back to the proposition "A, B, & C are people." Then, of course, your original syllogism would make sense, although it would be invalid -- both premises, as I pointed out, would be particular.

Nice try, though.

Seems to me you have problems expressing yourself clearly; that is, problems relating what you mean (or claim you mean) to the form of the expression; so, I'm not surprised you're an Objectivist. Have you ever thought of becoming a teacher?

Better yet, have you ever thought of teaching Objectivism?

And if I meant it collectively, as I obviously did, then the second premise CANNOT be converted to singular propositions.

Changes to the way formal logic works are only allowed in that non-existent la-la land known as Galt's Gulch. Time to wake up, smell the coffee, and join the real world.

Post 67

Friday, August 1, 2008 - 3:42pmSanction this postReply
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At the most general level, property dualism says there are some entities that have both physical and mental properties -- humans and many other animals -- 

And I've already pointed out that by calling (B) a property of (A), everything that we can say in principle about (B) must be reducible to some aspect of (A). That's what makes something a property of something else.

Properties are effects; the substances of which they are properties, the causes. Thus, property-dualism leads to epiphenomenalism. 

and there is no such thing as a purely mental or non-material entity.

According to your unsubstantiated opinion. You've merely defined "mental" and "non-material" in such a way as to disallow its independent existence. Big deal.

Substance is that which persists through change. The mind has a number of properties -- sometimes called "faculties" -- such as "will", "intellect", "passion", "wonder", "awe", "concentration", "daydreaming", "understanding", "imagination", "intentionality", etc. yet it is one and the same mind that engages in these different activities, or forms. Thus, following Aristotle, the mind is the underlying substance -- the thing that persists through all these possible changes -- and it takes on form, or is "informed" -- by exercising these faculties.

My own view of the problem is similar to that of Sir Karl Popper and Sir John Eccles. Read "The Self and Its Brain" co-authored by the two of them. The general name of their position is "Interactive dualism"; i.e., "mind" and "brain" are two different things, not standing in a a cause-effect or substance-property relation, that interact with each other: mind affects its brain; brain affects its mind.

Eccles (a neurophysiologist and Nobel Laureate for his work on synapses) was quite convinced that the personal "I" is capable of independent existence and survives bodily death. Popper (a philosopher mainly interested in science) was uninterested in that question and, to my knowledge, made no statements about it one way or the other. However, Popper argued for the objective, independent existence of products of the mind: scientific theories, works of art, etc. His notion of mind-body interaction took the form of positing three separate worlds that interact -- with cause-effect possible between any two, as well as within each world -- World 1 is the world of physical objects and events (including living organisms); World 2 is the world we each experience subjectively as mental events -- thoughts, dreams, conclusions, questions, etc.; World 3 contains objects (or "meta-objects") such as scientific theories (which are not physical objects or events, nor are they merely the subjective mental events of the individual scientist(s) who created them).

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popperian_cosmology for a brief introduction.


Post 68

Friday, August 1, 2008 - 5:51pmSanction this postReply
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Spinoza was a non-materialist atheist:

"Spinoza contended that "Deus sive Natura" ("God or Nature") was a being of infinitely many attributes, of which extension and thought were two. His account of the nature of reality, then, seems to treat the physical and mental worlds as one and the same. The universal substance consists of both body and mind, there being no difference between these aspects. This formulation is a historically significant solution to the mind-body problem known as neutral monism. The consequences of Spinoza's system also envisage a God that does not rule over the universe by providence, but a God which itself is the deterministic system of which everything in nature is a part. Thus, God is the natural world and He has no personality."

(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/01, 6:07pm)


Post 69

Friday, August 1, 2008 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "Claude, did you really think that when I said Tom, Dick and Harry are all people, I meant it individually and not collectively?" He replied,
It's irrelevant what you meant. What matters is what you actually posted.
So, there's no way someone could say that "Tom, Dick and Harry are all of the people in existence," and reasonably be understood as meaning that, collectively, they're all of the people in existence. What the speaker would have to mean, according to you, is that each one of them, individually, is all of the people in existence, viz., "Tom is all of the people in existence, Dick is all of the people in existence and Harry is all of the people in existence." Is that what you're saying? If it is, it's bizarre!

- Bill

Post 70

Saturday, August 2, 2008 - 2:50amSanction this postReply
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So, there's no way someone could say that "Tom, Dick and Harry are all of the people in existence,"

Now you're changing the sentence again. You originally wrote "Tom, Dick, and Harry are all people" not "Tom, Dick, and Harry are all of the people in existence." There's no way that the first sentence can be construed as merely an elliptical form of the second. If you meant the second, then you should have written it that way to begin with.

and reasonably be understood as meaning that, collectively, they're all of the people in existence.

Not when the person making the statement brags that he has a degree in philosophy, has taken many courses in logic, is a "seeker of truth" according to others, and posts on a blog called "Rebirth of Reason."


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Post 71

Saturday, August 2, 2008 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "So, there's no way someone could say that 'Tom, Dick and Harry are all of the people in existence and reasonably be understood as meaning that, collectively, they're all of the people in existence."

Claude replied,
Now you're changing the sentence again. You originally wrote "Tom, Dick, and Harry are all people" not "Tom, Dick, and Harry are all of the people in existence." There's no way that the first sentence can be construed as merely an elliptical form of the second. If you meant the second, then you should have written it that way to begin with.
Perhaps, but I thought it was clear from the context. I reworded it slightly for clarification, only because I couldn't understand why you were objecting to it. The obvious purpose of the original proposition was to express a universal statement equivalent to the proposition "Everyone isn't a fool"? What else could I have meant, when that proposition was the one that we were originally debating? Recall my statement:

Suppose there are only three people in existence: Tom, Dick and Harry. And suppose I say that Tom isn't a fool, Dick isn't a fool and Harry isn't a fool. If I wanted to summarize, I could say quite literally that "Everyone (i.e., Tom, Dick and Harry) isn't a fool."

Moreover, since the conclusion of the original syllogism was obviously a universal statement, the premise leading to it had to be, so why would you think that it meant something different? Are you so insensitive to context that you can't follow it from one post to another?

". . . and reasonably be understood as meaning that, collectively, they're all of the people in existence."
Not when the person making the statement brags that he has a degree in philosophy, has taken many courses in logic, is a "seeker of truth" according to others, and posts on a blog called "Rebirth of Reason."
Brags? If you recall, I was simply correcting another of your misstatements. After all, it was you who, in Post 39, made the following presumptuous remark: "I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that you’ve never taken a course in formal logic. I never met an Objectivist who has." So, by simply correcting you, I have now become a "braggart"?

At any rate, returning to the issue at hand, I take it that you now agree with the syllogism, viz.:

Tom, Dick and Harry are not fools.
Tom, Dick and Harry are all of the people in existence.
Therefore, all of the people in existence are not fools.

Since I am using the terms in the premises unequivocally, the conclusion "All the people in existence are not fools" can only mean that no one is a fool.

- Bill




Post 72

Saturday, August 2, 2008 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
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Claude Shannon wrote:
And I've already pointed out that by calling (B) a property of (A), everything that we can say in principle about (B) must be reducible to some aspect of (A). That's what makes something a property of something else.
Physical reductionism again?
Thus, property-dualism leads to epiphenomenalism.
Your repeating it doesn't make it so.
and there is no such thing as a purely mental or non-material entity.
According to your unsubstantiated opinion.
The substantiation is that there is zero empirical evidence for it.
Thus, following Aristotle, the mind is the underlying substance -- the thing that persists through all these possible changes -- and it takes on form, or is "informed" -- by exercising these faculties.
Wrong. A man is a substance. Mind, or soul, is not a substance per Aristotle. Soul is a form. Substances are compounds of matter and form.
My own view of the problem is similar to that of Sir Karl Popper and Sir John Eccles. Read "The Self and Its Brain" co-authored by the two of them. The general name of their position is "Interactive dualism"; i.e., "mind" and "brain" are two different things, not standing in a a cause-effect or substance-property relation, that interact with each other: mind affects its brain; brain affects its mind.
Such interaction is compatible with property dualism.
Eccles (a neurophysiologist and Nobel Laureate for his work on synapses) was quite convinced that the personal "I" is capable of independent existence and survives bodily death. Popper (a philosopher mainly interested in science) was uninterested in that question and, to my knowledge, made no statements about it one way or the other.
Eccles conviction is arbitrary with zero empirical evidence. It's unfalsifiable, using a term of Popper. Also, Eccles was a devout theist.


Post 73

Saturday, August 2, 2008 - 3:16pmSanction this postReply
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Jetton wrote:

Physical reductionism again?

Yep. Property dualism is simply physical reductionism in disguise. "Physical substance (A) has two properties: (X) which is physical; and (Y) which is mental. With further scientific research (and more government funding) we will eventually discover the microscopic physical causes of (Y) which it obviously has since it is a property of a physical substance. Our calling it a 'mental' property is simply a slippery (though socially acceptable within some circles) way of saying that we just don't know what the underlying physical cause is."

Such interaction is compatible with property dualism.

Only according to your unsubstantiated opinion. Properties are effects; substances are their causes. Properties don't interact with their own substances -- that would make the subject, in some way, a property of the property. Color is a property of light; it doesn't "interact" with its own light source.

You've glommed on so tightly to property dualism for some reason that you'll make up anything -- including notions that contradict your own assertion -- to stay with it. I wonder why? I don't recall Rand claiming that she was a property dualist.

The substantiation is that there is zero empirical evidence for it.

Well, too bad. "Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack" as they say in science. There's no empirical evidence for intelligent life on other planets, yet that doesn't make SETI an irrational enterprise. The most that "lack of empirical evidence" allows you to say in this instance is "there's a lack of empirical evidence"; not "I know for certain that mind cannot exist without a brain."

It's unfalsifiable, using a term of Popper. Also, Eccles was a devout theist.

And Rand was a devout atheist...since the age of 12 according to her. As for being unfalsifiable -- assuming that is actually the case -- Popper would say "So what? That a truth might be unfalsifiable means simply that it is not scientific; not that it is false. Lots of things can be true without being falsifiable."



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Post 74

Sunday, August 3, 2008 - 6:29amSanction this postReply
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I wrote: "Such interaction is compatible with property dualism."

Claude Shannon replied:
Only according to your unsubstantiated opinion.
It isn't merely my opinion. Anomalous monism is a kind of property dualism and affirms causal interaction between the mental and the physical. (link)
You've glommed on so tightly to property dualism for some reason that you'll make up anything -- including notions that contradict your own assertion -- to stay with it. I wonder why? I don't recall Rand claiming that she was a property dualist.
I didn't "make up" anything nor contradict myself. Rand's not claiming it doesn't make it false.



(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 8/03, 8:08am)


Post 75

Sunday, August 3, 2008 - 5:52pmSanction this postReply
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In reply to Merlin, Claude wrote,
"Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack" as they say in science. There's no empirical evidence for intelligent life on other planets, yet that doesn't make SETI an irrational enterprise. The most that "lack of empirical evidence" allows you to say in this instance is "there's a lack of empirical evidence"; not "I know for certain that mind cannot exist without a brain."
Well, we do have empirical evidence that intelligent life can exist on a planet with the environment to support it, so there's no reason to assume that it could not exist on another planet with a similar environment. But we have no empirical evidence that a mind can exist without a brain.

A mind or consciousness requires a means of perception and cognition. It requires sensory organs to apprehend the external world and a brain to process and store sensory information. Perception must also take a particular form (e.g., visual, auditory, tactile, etc.) which is determined by the nature of its sensory receptor(s). The perception doesn't have to be in the form of one of our five senses (bats perceive via sonar, and it's conceivable that a radically different species from another planet might possess a hitherto unknown form of perception) but it must have some particular form; otherwise it would not exist. A formless perception, like any formless action, is a contradiction in terms.

For example, the act of running differs in form depending on the animal that's performing it. Man runs on two legs, a horse on four, an insect on six), but the act of running must take some particular form, one which is determined by the animal's unique physiology. The same is true of an act of perception. A disembodied mind or consciousness would have no sensory receptors with which to perceive the external world. Nor would it have a brain to process and store perceptual information. Disembodied awareness, like disembodied running, is a contradiction in terms.

Merlin wrote,
Anomalous monism is a kind of property dualism and affirms causal interaction between the mental and the physical.
I disagree with this theory. In order for two things to interact, they must exist independently of each another. But the mind no more interacts with the brain than vision interacts with the eye. In order for vision to interact with the eye, vision would, in some sense, have to exist independently of the eye, which it obviously does not. Vision depends on the eye. The same is true of the mind vis-a-vis the brain. Since the mind depends on the brain for its function, it does not and cannot "interact" with it. The mind is the conscious aspect of the brain's function, just as vision is the conscious aspect of the eye's function.

- Bill

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Post 76

Sunday, August 3, 2008 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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Claude,

I've deleted some of your posts in the moderator queue, and will continue to do so until you start posting in a polite and civil manner.  Bill and Merlin may look past your insulting demeanor, but I won't.


Post 77

Sunday, August 3, 2008 - 7:21pmSanction this postReply
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Bill Dwyer,

I've read very little about anomalous monism, but I believe your argument is misdirected. I believe the kind of interaction anomalous monism means is between the mind-brain and other body parts such as hands or legs.

You wrote:
In order for two things to interact, they must exist independently of each another.
Then how do you account for, say, a bicep contracting and stretching the tricep?

Thank you for showing Claude's SETI argument to be a poor analogy.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 8/04, 5:10am)


Post 78

Sunday, August 3, 2008 - 8:49pmSanction this postReply
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Physical Monism - The Bodily as Given

I have been reluctant to put forth my monist theory until it is published in some form. Here are some preliminary notes, for which I've started a blog:

Materialism is not a primary. It is the learned theory that bodies are comprised of inanimate elemental substances in the chemical sense. But knowledge of matter is not an immediate given. That of which we are directly aware is the bodily which I call the physical. That physical bodies are comprised of matter is a complex scientific theory, not a metaphysical given.

Read more here.

If you accept my stipulation of the difference between the bodily/(physical) and the material, I think my thoughts are clear. I would enjoy any comments.

Post 79

Sunday, August 3, 2008 - 10:05pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

From your blog page...

Can you say a little bit more on this part, "...which is a Randian entity, perceived directly, but ion some Kelleyan perceptual form."

As to this: "Matter is not epistemologically prior," I assume you mean that each individual perceives entities as entities before grasping the concept of matter (or the concept of entity). Sometime, early in their life, they will grasp matter as a concept distinct from things like ghosts, spiritual values, ideas, etc. But that individuals may go their entire lives without learning about a theory we call Materialism. Am I following you correctly there?



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