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Post 40

Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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Hi Claude,

I have a degree in philosophy and have taken many courses on logic. So I'm familiar with the view of logicians which you've quoted from your logic text. It is true that they favor "No S is P" as a way to remove any ambiguity from a proposition intended to express a universal negative. And I agree that the best way to express such a proposition is "No S is P" rather than "All S is not-P."

Admittedly, "All S is not P" can in some contexts be construed to mean that not all S is P. For example, "All politicians are not crooks" does not mean that no politician is a crook. It means that not all politicians are crooks. Here the context would indicate that the speaker does not intend his statement to be construed as a universal negative.

However, that's colloquial usage. If one takes the statement literally -- which is why I said "strictly speaking" -- the statement "All politicians are not crooks" says that all politicians are excluded from the class of crooks, i.e., that no politician is a crook. To be sure, no one would read it that way, because that is not what people typically mean when they make that statement. But if we ignore colloquial usage, and focus simply on the form of a proposition, "All S is not-P" says that all the members of class S are not in the class of P.

I wrote, "The context in which she grew up is not the most important thing. If it were, then Rand would have held the same views as her parents."
Non sequitur. Context doesn’t imply, let alone, require, determinism.
But I thought you were saying that the context in which one grows up is the most important thing for determining one's values. Is that not what you were saying?
We also have no evidence as to what, precisely, her parents thought about issues such as "capitalism", "communism", "egoism", "altrusim", etc. So how do you know that Rand did NOT hold similar views as her parents?
I thought we were discussing religion and its relationship to art. Her parents were not atheists -- the Russian culture at that time was awash in mysticism and collectivism -- and, even though her parents opposed the Bolshevik revolution, they would not have understood or endorsed anything so radical as laissez-faire capitalism.

I wrote, "The most important thing is a thoughtful, independent mind -- a mind that is willing to transcend its own upbringing."
Minds don’t “transcend” their upbringing. They build on top of old thought structures.
I transcended mine. I was raised as a Catholic, and am now a staunch opponent of Catholicism. How is that "building on top of old thought structures."?
Both Judaism and Christianity value individualism and independent thinking. Rand took advantage of those values from her parents and her society.
Not true. Both Judaism and Christianity demand unquestioning obedience to God and endorse the doctrine of original sin and inherited guilt. And both threaten eternal punishment in hell for disobeying God's commandments. To set an example, God tells Moses to have a man stoned to death for working on the Sabbath, and Moses does as he is told. So much for the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." Thou shalt not kill, except when God tells you to!

“If I were to speak your kind of language, I would say that man’s only moral commandment is: Thou shalt think. But a ‘moral commandment’ is a contradiction in terms. The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational, and reason accepts no commandments.” -- Ayn Rand



Post 41

Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 11:49amSanction this postReply
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“If I were to speak your kind of language, I would say that man’s only moral commandment is: Thou shalt think. But a ‘moral commandment’ is a contradiction in terms. The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational, and reason accepts no commandments.” -- Ayn Rand




HEAR HEAR!!!
It just cannot be stated enough, even [or perhaps moreso] of Objectivists.... so inculcated is the notion, in whatever form over the millenniums given, of morals as being in some form or other commandments, it is so difficult to FULLY grasp this essential given by Rand....

Post 42

Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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I have a degree in philosophy and have taken many courses on logic. So I'm familiar with the view of logicians which you've quoted from your logic text. It is true that they favor "No S is P" as a way to remove any ambiguity from a proposition intended to express a universal negative. And I agree that the best way to express such a proposition is "No S is P" rather than "All S is not-P."

You had no hyphen in the original post and now you add a hyphen, as if it were just some minor afterthought, or as if no one would notice.

In a literal reading of "Every S is not P", the negative adverb "not" is understood as part of the copula, not as part of the predicate term. It means "Every S isn't P" or "Every S is-not P".

When you deny the copula, you deny the proposition, which is the reason "Every S is-not P" = "Not every S is P".

The idiosyncratic meaning that you had in mind (which you humorously refer to as “the literal meaning”) –i.e., "Every S is not-P" -- requires that you be explicit and insert the hyphen.

I wrote, "The context in which she grew up is not the most important thing. If it were, then Rand would have held the same views as her parents."

Non sequitur. Context doesn’t imply, let alone, require, determinism.

But I thought you were saying that the context in which one grows up is the most important thing for determining one's values. Is that not what you were saying?

I never used the word "determining." You used it and then tried to attribute it to me.

We also have no evidence as to what, precisely, her parents thought about issues such as "capitalism", "communism",

"egoism", "altrusim", etc. So how do you know that Rand did NOT hold similar views as her parents?

I thought we were discussing religion and its relationship to art.

That's covered by the word "etc."

Her parents were not atheists -- the Russian culture at that time was awash in mysticism and collectivism -- and, even though her parents opposed the Bolshevik revolution, they would not have understood or endorsed anything so radical as laissez-faire capitalism.

Nothing like second-guessing the long-dead parents of a long-dead author.

I wrote, "The most important thing is a thoughtful, independent mind -- a mind that is willing to transcend its own

upbringing."

Minds don’t “transcend” their upbringing. They build on top of old thought structures.

I transcended mine.

Of course. And I levitate nightly, as well as astral-travel to venus on weekends.

Both Judaism and Christianity value individualism and independent thinking. Rand took advantage of those values from her parents and her society.

Not true. Both Judaism and Christianity demand unquestioning obedience to God

Both Judaism and Christianity stress free will and voluntarism; i.e., you OUGHT to observe the tenets of the religion in the same way that you OUGHT to observe the laws of a nation, but it ultimately has to be freely chosen on your part--just as you ultimately have to choose to observe the laws of a nation. The key word is "observe" rather than “submit” or “obey.”

"Reason" and "free will," as participating in the "divine mind", are central parts of Jewish and Christian theology. The "unquestioned submission" nonsense you're prattling about is secular, anti-religious propaganda (similar to the propaganda I criticized some time ago on the apparent historical conflict between science and religion).

and endorse the doctrine of original sin and inherited guilt. And both threaten eternal punishment in hell for disobeying God's commandments.

Both subscribe to the notion of repentance and forgiveness on the part of God and man. Additionally, there is no "hell" in Judaism, and adherents atone to God once a year (Yom Kippur), not only asking forgiveness for transgressions the previous year, but also, in essence “voiding” the contract they made last year with God and rewriting it for the coming year!

Whatever you might make of this tradition, it has nothing to do with the "unquesitoned obedience" you were fantasizing about.

The "original sin" you speak of was the original act of the exercise of free will. As Milton wrote in Paradise Lost:

Of Mans First Disobedience, and the Fruit
Of that Forbidden Tree, whose mortal taste
Brought Death into the World, and all our woe,
With loss of Eden, till one greater Man
Restore us, and regain the blissful Seat,

Original sin was an original act of disobedience - free will - not sexuality. The "inherited guilt" you speak of is bodily death: the cost of having exercised free will.

Additionally, though the cost of this disobedience was the inheritance of bodily death this act of free will was also responsible for creating physical nature: the "loss of Eden" Milton speaks of above was the cleaving apart of "outer physical nature" from "inner subjective experience"; two things that were, apparently, one thing in "Eden." Again, Milton:

So saying, her rash hand in evil hour
Forth reaching to the Fruit, she pluck'd, she eat:
Earth felt the wound, and Nature from her seat
Sighing through all her Works gave signs of woe,
That all was lost.

Eve eats the apple from the Tree of Knowledge, yet Milton says "Earth felt the wound..."So in the story of the fall, physical nature fell from Paradise as much as Man did, because the two – man/nature -- were originally one. (And by the way, there are facts of linguistic history confirming that mankind in antiquity did not, in fact, distinguish "outer nature" from "inner experience" to the extent that we do today.)

So all of man's productive work -- cathedrals, symphonies, science, even theology -- are the result of an initial act of free will -- an initial act of disobedience -- that cleaved both man and physical nature from a paradisal state of unity. Science then becomes the "study of Fallen Nature by Fallen Man"; the attempt to repair or reassemble the original unity.

Furthermore, Christianity claims that salvation -- moral purification and victory over bodily death -- can be achieved only through "accepting" (i.e., voluntarily observing) Christ. Whatever one makes of that, "acceptance” is clearly different from "submission.”

To set an example, God tells Moses to have a man stoned to death for working on the Sabbath, and Moses does as he is told. So much for the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." Thou shalt not kill, except when God tells you to!

I know of no such story in the Old Testament. Perhaps you could find the exact reference? There is a story from Leviticus regarding Moses and a blasphemer whom God instructed Moses to stone to death.

Anyway, to pick this or that story from the Bible that offends your hyper-refined sensibilities about anything religious is pointless, as (i) the Bible itself is a palimpsest, having had many authors over a long period of time until it was canonized and "completed", as it were, meaning that everyone is aware that it contains contradictory statements; and (2) there are plenty of stories, parables, sayings, etc., that are high, noble, inspirational, etc., which is why so many people read it daily. You’re probably confusing scripture with a textbook on philosophy, written by one author, in which internal consistency is a goal. Anyway, the 3rd book of the Torah, "Leviticus", was essentially a rule-book for the priesthood (which is why it was incorporated, and also why it appears smack in the middle of the Torah). For most modern readers, its importance is merely historical; e.g., it also has references to the necessity of making animal sacrifices in the temple, which no one is about to do today.


Post 43

Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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“If I were to speak your kind of language, I would say that man’s only moral commandment is: Thou shalt think. But a ‘moral commandment’ is a contradiction in terms. The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational, and reason accepts no commandments.” -- Ayn Rand

Commandments in ethics serve the same purpose as axioms in epistemology. They are unquestioned starting points for further moral reasoning and action.


Post 44

Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 12:02amSanction this postReply
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And I agree that the best way to express such a proposition is "No S is P" rather than "All S is not-P"

It is not the best way; it is the only way...unless, of course, you sneak in the hyphen second time around as you have just done. Your original assertion was that "All S is not P" was the negation of "All S is P."

You may cite your source(s) for this assertion. Surely, you must have at least one text or treatise on logic lying around from those many courses you took.

Post 45

Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 4:40amSanction this postReply
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Claude needs to wash his hair - he has too many nits.....;-)

Post 46

Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 4:55pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "And I agree that the best way to express such a proposition is 'No S is P' rather than 'All S is not-P.'"

Claude replied,
You had no hyphen in the original post and now you add a hyphen, as if it were just some minor afterthought, or as if no one would notice.

In a literal reading of "Every S is not P", the negative adverb "not" is understood as part of the copula, not as part of the predicate term. It means "Every S isn't P" or "Every S is-not P".

When you deny the copula, you deny the proposition, which is the reason "Every S is-not P" = "Not every S is P".

The idiosyncratic meaning that you had in mind (which you humorously refer to as “the literal meaning”) –i.e., "Every S is not-P" -- requires that you be explicit and insert the hyphen.
My apologies for being unclear. I wasn't trying to be slippery or evasive. I didn't at the time think that it made any difference and inadvertently inserted the hyphen, without thinking. But I now see the distinction that you are making, and it's a good one. It's the difference between saying that "Every S is non-P" and saying that "Every S is not P." In colloquial English, these two statements have different meanings. The first means that no S is P, and the second, that not every S is P. But "strictly speaking" (in non-colloquial English) the two mean the same thing. Let me explain:

Take the statement, "Everyone isn't a fool." In colloquial English, all this means is that not everyone is a fool. But consider the same statement in literal (i.e., non-colloquial) usage: Suppose there are only three people in existence: Tom, Dick and Harry. And suppose I say that Tom isn't a fool, Dick isn't a fool and Harry isn't a fool. If I wanted to summarize, I could say quite literally that "Everyone (i.e., Tom, Dick and Harry) isn't a fool." What I am then saying is that no one (not Tom, not Dick and not Harry) is a fool.

You also wrote,
You may cite your source(s) for this assertion. Surely, you must have at least one text or treatise on logic lying around from those many courses you took.
My source is my own reasoning as presented above. As I said in my original reply, "I'm familiar with the view of logicians which you've quoted from your logic text. It is true that they favor 'No S is P' as a way to remove any ambiguity from a proposition intended to express a universal negative." I know of no logic text that disagrees, including the ones that I have. But these texts are referring to standard colloquial English, which is not what I was referring to when I said "strictly speaking." I hope that my meaning is now clear.

- Bill

Post 47

Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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Take the statement, "Everyone isn't a fool." In colloquial English, all this means is that not everyone is a fool. But consider the same statement in literal (i.e., non-colloquial) usage:

"Colloquial" means pertaining to words or expressions more suitable for speech than writing; in informal, conversational style. Treatises on FORMAL logic - the art of deductive reasoning - would not be interested in sloppy, casual, spoken discourse. You are welcome to reference any one of your many texts on logic that claim otherwise.

Suppose there are only three people in existence: Tom, Dick and Harry. And suppose I say that Tom isn't a fool, Dick isn't a fool and Harry isn't a fool. If I wanted to summarize, I could say quite literally that "Everyone (i.e., Tom, Dick and Harry) isn't a fool."

Wrong. You could say it, but you wouldn't be literal about it; you'd simply be expressing yourself unclearly. The only valid way of expressing "Tom is not a fool; Dick is not a fool; Harry is not a fool" in a single proposition -- casual or not -- is with an "E" proposition: "No one is a fool."

Additionally, even from the standpoint of grammar, your "colloquial" sentence is invalid: "not" is an adverb; an adverb modifies verbs, participles, adjectives, or other adverbs; it doesn't modify nouns. In the sentence "Everyone is not a fool", the adverb "not" would never be understood as coalescing with "fool" because "fool" is a noun...adverbs don't coalesce their meaning with nouns...except under a very special circumstance: i.e., you have to force the coalescence between the adverb and the noun (or the noun phrase) by means of a hyphen; viz., "Everyone is not-a-fool."

That said, rules of logic trump rules of grammar. Even if you replace the noun phrase "a fool" with the adjective "foolish," the sentence "Everyone is not foolish" still means "Not everyone is foolish." When the copula is negative, the predicate does not get distributed to each predicate term unless the subject is singular in meaning (and not just singular in grammatical form, as is the word "everyone"); i.e., "John is not foolish."

Regarding the use of the hyphen, I find it shocking that someone claiming a degree in philosophy should not have known the difference between "Every S is not P" and "Every S is not-P." With difficulty, I forgive you. Just don't let it happen again.

What I am then saying is that no one (not Tom, not Dick and not Harry) is a fool.

That may be what you meant, but it isn't what you actually said.



Post 48

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 1:14amSanction this postReply
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Claude wrote,
"'Colloquial' means pertaining to words or expressions more suitable for speech than writing; in informal, conversational style. Treatises on FORMAL logic - the art of deductive reasoning - would not be interested in sloppy, casual, spoken discourse. You are welcome to reference any one of your many texts on logic that claim otherwise.
I agree, which is why logicians seek to eliminate the ambiguity by the appropriate clarification. What I meant by "colloquial" here is simply non-literal. It is my contention that taken literally, the statement, "Everyone is not a fool" means that no one is a fool, because it says that every member of the class of human beings is not a fool -- that Tom is not a fool, Dick is not a fool, Harry is not a fool . . . etc. Admittedly, the statement is ambiguous, because it could mean either that no one is a fool or that some people are not fools, depending on whether the statement is interpreted literally or non-literally. Formal logic seeks to eliminate the ambiguity by identifying which meaning is intended and translating it accordingly. So if my meaning were intended, formal logic would translate it as an E proposition -- "No one is a fool." If your meaning were intended, formal logic would translate it as an O proposition -- "Some people are not fools."

I wrote, "Suppose there are only three people in existence: Tom, Dick and Harry. And suppose I say that Tom isn't a fool, Dick isn't a fool and Harry isn't a fool. If I wanted to summarize, I could say quite literally that 'Everyone (i.e., Tom, Dick and Harry) isn't a fool.'"
Wrong. You could say it, but you wouldn't be literal about it; you'd simply be expressing yourself unclearly. The only valid way of expressing "Tom is not a fool; Dick is not a fool; Harry is not a fool" in a single proposition -- casual or not -- is with an "E" proposition: "No one is a fool."
Okay, I think I see what you mean by "literal." You mean unambiguous, which is not what I meant by it.
Additionally, even from the standpoint of grammar, your "colloquial" sentence is invalid: "not" is an adverb; an adverb modifies verbs, participles, adjectives, or other adverbs; it doesn't modify nouns. In the sentence "Everyone is not a fool", the adverb "not" would never be understood as coalescing with "fool" because "fool" is a noun...adverbs don't coalesce their meaning with nouns...except under a very special circumstance: i.e., you have to force the coalescence between the adverb and the noun (or the noun phrase) by means of a hyphen; viz., "Everyone is not-a-fool."
I agree with your point about grammar -- "not" is an adverb, not an adjective -- but I still don't see how it necessitates that the statement in question can only mean that some people aren't fools. It is true that if you hyphenate "not-a-fool," it removes the ambiguity and clearly conveys the meaning that no one is a fool, but I still don't see that without the hyphenation, the statement can only mean that some people are fools. Consider the following syllogism::

Tom, Dick and Harry are not fools.
Tom, Dick and Harry are all people.
Therefore, all people are not fools.

If I am using the terms in the premises unequivocally, then the conclusion "All people are not fools" can only mean that no one is a fool.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 7/31, 8:35am)


Post 49

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
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Claude Shannon wrote (post 37):

If you're not a materialist, then you grant the existence of non-material entities; if you grant the existence of non-material entities, then you have no justification to deny outright the existence of a non-material God.
Non sequiturs. Property dualism rejects materialism (a monist ontology) and holds there are two kinds of properties --  physical and mental.  Belief in God is a form of substance dualism and a mystic leap of faith.


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Post 50

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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Claude wrote,
Both Judaism and Christianity value individualism and independent thinking. Rand took advantage of those values from her parents and her society.
I replied, "Not true. Both Judaism and Christianity demand unquestioning obedience to God."
Both Judaism and Christianity stress free will and voluntarism; i.e., you OUGHT to observe the tenets of the religion in the same way that you OUGHT to observe the laws of a nation, but it ultimately has to be freely chosen on your part--just as you ultimately have to choose to observe the laws of a nation. The key word is "observe" rather than “submit” or “obey.”
The law says, pay your taxes or go to jail. How is that voluntary?! It's a form of coercion. Yes, I "choose" to pay them in order to avoid the punishment, but that doesn't mean it's voluntary, any more than choosing to give my money to a mugger in order to avoid being shot is voluntary. In both cases, I'm forced to part with my money against my will. In the same way, one is forced under threat of punishment to obey God's commandments. That too is not voluntary. I gave the example of God's commanding Moses to have a man stoned to death for working on the Sabbath. You replied,
I know of no such story in the Old Testament. Perhaps you could find the exact reference? There is a story from Leviticus regarding Moses and a blasphemer whom God instructed Moses to stone to death.
The stoning for working on the Sabbath is in Numbers 15:32-36. Stoning is also prescribed for adultery (Deutronomy 22:23-24), for a woman's not being a virgin on her wedding night (DT 22:13-21), for disobeying one's parents (DT 21:18-21) for worshipping other gods (DT 17:2-5; 13:5-10), and for cursing the King (1 Kings 21:10). The Biblical emphasis on obedience to authority is undeniable.
Anyway, to pick this or that story from the Bible that offends your hyper-refined sensibilities about anything religious is pointless . . .
So you think that to object to these barbaric punishments reflects a hyper-refined sensibility?! Wow!
. . . as (i) the Bible itself is a palimpsest, having had many authors over a long period of time until it was canonized and "completed", as it were, meaning that everyone is aware that it contains contradictory statements; and (2) there are plenty of stories, parables, sayings, etc., that are high, noble, inspirational, etc., which is why so many people read it daily.
Well, if you can just cherry pick whatever you want, ignoring the manifold atrocities that God commits against his own people, then how can the Bible have any kind of religious authority?

I said that religion endorses the doctrine of original sin and inherited guilt. And both threaten eternal punishment in hell for disobeying God's commandments. You replied,
Both subscribe to the notion of repentance and forgiveness on the part of God and man.
Repentance and forgiveness for what? For disobeying God's arbitrary commandments!! If you don't repent, you are punished. The repentance is coerced.
Additionally, there is no "hell" in Judaism . . .
That's not what I've read. (See: http://www.askmoses.com/article/135,164/Does-Judaism-believe-in-Heaven-and-Hell.html). In any case, there is in Christianity.
Original sin was an original act of disobedience - free will - not sexuality. The "inherited guilt" you speak of is bodily death: the cost of having exercised free will.
Whose free will? Not the free will of those who've "inherited" the guilt. Inherited guilt is a contradiction in terms. Guilt cannot be inherited; it can only apply to a freely chosen action.

- Bill




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Post 51

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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Everyone is not a fool" means that no one is a fool, because it says that every member of the class of human beings is not a fool

(Sigh!) No, it does not mean that. It doesn't mean it "literally" (whatever you mean by that term); it doesn't mean it "non-literally". "Everyone is not a fool", illustrated by means of Euler's circles (a/k/a Venn diagrams), would consist of a big predicate circle labeled "fools", and a smaller, PARTIALLY OVERLAPPING circle labeled "everyone." Whether literally or colloquially, it is invalid to separate the two circles completely. That arrangement could ONLY be described by the statement "No one is a fool." Period.

You're just going to have to admit you were wrong, sweetpea, and stop the wiggling around you've been doing with weasel words like "literal", "non-literal", and "colloquial." I've already forgiven you, so what the hell is your problem?

Regarding your syllogism example,

Tom, Dick, & Harry are not fools. (an "O" statement; i.e., particular negative);
Tom, Dick, & Harry are people. (an "I" statement; i.e., particular affirmative);
ergo, All people are not fools (an "O" statement; particular negative - when the copula is negated, "all", "each", and "every" are signs of particularity, not universality).

Your syllogism is invalid: both premises are particular; hence, no valid conclusion can be drawn. A valid conclusion requires that at least one premise be universal.


Post 52

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 11:55amSanction this postReply
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Property dualism rejects materialism (a monist ontology) and holds there are two kinds of properties --  physical and mental.  Belief in God is a form of substance dualism and a mystic leap of faith.

"Property dualism" is unintelligible, and is simply a rehash of the philosophy of John Searle.

Properties are completely deducible from the nature of the substance in which they inhere, or to which they adhere, since - by definition - they are properties OF the substance. Absolutely NOTHING can be deduced about mind or mental effects from an analysis of brains. No amount of neurosurgery or tissue samples from Ayn Rand's brain, when put under a scanning electron microscope (or any other tool) would allow anyone to deduce anything about a mental property: "Yes, I can see from the little twist of this dendrite over here, that the patient is going to type out the words 'Who'; 'who' is a perfectly discernible mental property of that little twisted dendrite. Then over to the left a little, I see a squiggly axon, and any good property-dualist can immediately see that this inevitably leads to the mental property taking the form of the word 'is. And finally, these two neurons, side-by-side, lead to the mental property taking the form of the words 'John Galt'. With further research, and another injection of government grant money, my team and I will eventually find the physical bit of tissue responsible for causing the mental property taking the form of the question mark."

The "property dualist" position is simply absurd. Properties are ultimately completely DETERMINED by the nature of the substance OF WHICH they are properties. "Color" is a property of light, matter, and the physical structure of the eye, all acting in concert, and can be completely explained deterministically by a study of light, matter, and the physical structure of the eye. "Weight" is a property of matter and is completely explainable, deterministically, by reference to mass and gravity. "Hardness" is a property that is completely explainable deterministically by an analysis of matter; etc. NOTHING mental can be predicted or explained by reference to some underlying matter of which mind is supposedly a property. That's simply a glitzy form of determinism known as "epiphenomenalism": "the mind may be mental, but it is ultimately an effect caused by the brain; as such mental effect, it is merely an 'end phenomenon', and it can cause nothing further. Furthermore, since it is an effect of a physical cause (just as all properties are effects of physical causes), a future analysis of the cause (that is, the physical brain) will, one day, allow us to predict and retrodict with certainty, the mental imagery, concepts, thoughts, dreams, etc., produced by any particular brain."

If true, then it must also be true for the theory of property-dualism; it, too, must be the "property" (i.e., end-effect) of an ultimately physical cause (i.e., the brain). If so, then there's no way to falsify the theory even in principle. The position throws out science and any notion of objective truth ("My brain-matter has a property taking the form of the property-dualism theory; your brain-matter has a property taking the form of substance-dualism", etc.).


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Post 53

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "It is my contention that taken literally, the statement, "Everyone is not a fool" means that no one is a fool, because it says that every member of the class of human beings is not a fool -- that Tom is not a fool, Dick is not a fool, Harry is not a fool . . . etc. Admittedly, the statement is ambiguous, because it could mean either that no one is a fool or that some people are not fools, depending on whether the statement is interpreted literally or non-literally. Formal logic seeks to eliminate the ambiguity by identifying which meaning is intended and translating it accordingly. So if my meaning were intended, formal logic would translate it as an E proposition -- "No one is a fool." If your meaning were intended, formal logic would translate it as an O proposition -- "Some people are not fools."

Omitting the context of my statement, Claude replied,
(Sigh!) No, it does not mean that [that no one is a fool]. It doesn't mean it "literally" (whatever you mean by that term); . . .
I think I've explained what I mean by it pretty clearly.
it doesn't mean it "non-literally". "Everyone is not a fool", illustrated by means of Euler's circles (a/k/a Venn diagrams), would consist of a big predicate circle labeled "fools", and a smaller, PARTIALLY OVERLAPPING circle labeled "everyone."
If you interpret it the way that you insist on doing, yes; what I'm disputing is that that is the only valid interpretation.
You're just going to have to admit you were wrong, sweetpea, and stop the wiggling around you've been doing with weasel words like "literal", "non-literal", and "colloquial." I've already forgiven you, so what the hell is your problem?
Claude, are you capable of voicing your disagreement without resorting to condescending sarcasm? And what is "I've already forgiven you" supposed to mean?? How have I wronged you in this discussion? I've gone out of my way to be civil and cordial, and this is the reception I get.
Regarding your syllogism example,

Tom, Dick, & Harry are not fools. (an "O" statement; i.e., particular negative);
Tom, Dick, & Harry are people. (an "I" statement; i.e., particular affirmative);
ergo, All people are not fools (an "O" statement; particular negative - when the copula is negated, "all", "each", and "every" are signs of particularity, not universality).

Your syllogism is invalid: both premises are particular; hence, no valid conclusion can be drawn. A valid conclusion requires that at least one premise be universal.
First of all, that wasn't my syllogism. You misquoted me (intentionally?). The second premise was not "Tom, Dick & Harry are people." It was "Tom, Dick & Harry are ALL people." As such, the syllogism is perfectly valid.

T, D & H are not fools
T, D & H are all people
Therefore, all people are not fools.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 7/31, 1:54pm)


Post 54

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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=========
What I meant by "colloquial" here is ...
=========

Any conversation which requires one or the other participant to start a sentence with this 7-word string is either dishonest or, at least, wrong-headed. One of the participants in a conversation requiring this word-string is either being dishonest or wrong-headed -- which means not aimed at a mutual understanding. Think about it.

Colloquial is common meaning/common use. When you have to go through the extra step of explaining what you mean by "colloquial" (or by "common meaning") -- then you have inadvertently admitted that by common meaning you mean something that's not common. But that's a contradiction. When someone argues with you against the common ground that you really do hold with him, then he is not being honest or he is aimed at deception (not at understanding).

Ed

p.s. I haven't read this whole thread, but if I had to pick which of the 2 main participants in this debate is the one who has got to be being dishonest (because someone has got to be being dishonest here), then I would pick Claude over Bill. I know it better than with others that Bill is passionately concerned about chasing after the truth.


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Post 55

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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Claude Shannon wrote:   
Properties are completely deducible from the nature of the substance in which they inhere, or to which they adhere, since - by definition - they are properties OF the substance. Absolutely NOTHING can be deduced about mind or mental effects from an analysis of brains. 
I agree with the last sentence, but property dualism doesn't claim the contrary.

Is indulging in contradictions a habit of yours?

NOTHING mental can be predicted or explained by reference to some underlying matter of which mind is supposedly a property. That's simply a glitzy form of determinism known as "epiphenomenalism":
Many property dualists agree. Epiphenomenalism is only one sort of property dualism.
a future analysis of the cause (that is, the physical brain) will, one day, allow us to predict and retrodict with certainty, the mental imagery, concepts, thoughts, dreams, etc., produced by any particular brain."
How do you know? Anyway, that's reductive physicalism, which in incoherent with property dualism.
If so, then there's no way to falsify the theory even in principle. The position throws out science and any notion of objective truth
False, but it is true of "non-material entities."


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Post 56

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 3:37pmSanction this postReply
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Claude,

Properties are completely deducible from the nature of the substance in which they inhere, or to which they adhere, since - by definition - they are properties OF the substance. Absolutely NOTHING can be deduced about mind or mental effects from an analysis of brains.
Properties are only in principle completely deducible from the nature of the substance in which they inhere. Gravity is a property of mass, but not completely deducible from the nature of mass. There's no mechanistic explanation of gravity, even if you say that there has got to be (in order for gravity to exist or to be true).

Properties are ultimately completely DETERMINED by the nature of the substance OF WHICH they are properties.
You're just saying that everything is a something (that everything's got identity), and trying to make that truism sound like it matters to the question at hand -- about whether things ever emerge. But there's no "wetness" in a molecule of water, even if wetness emerges when several of these non-wet molecules coalesce. In the same manner there isn't "mental-ness" somewhere in an inactive physical brain -- even if mental-ness emerges from an active one.

NOTHING mental can be predicted or explained by reference to some underlying matter of which mind is supposedly a property. That's simply a glitzy form of determinism known as "epiphenomenalism":
Did you even bother to read the short link that Merlin provided (where epiphenomenalism was merely one of many theories about property dualism, and not necessarily the correct one)?

If true, then it must also be true for the theory of property-dualism; it, too, must be the "property" (i.e., end-effect) of an ultimately physical cause (i.e., the brain). If so, then there's no way to falsify the theory even in principle. The position throws out science and any notion of objective truth ("My brain-matter has a property taking the form of the property-dualism theory; your brain-matter has a property taking the form of substance-dualism", etc.).
If you had carefully read the short link that Merlin provided, then you would recognize that you are merely arguing against reductive physicalism here (where the brain physically "causes" the common phenomenon we typically refer to as "mind"). In no way does that amount to a rebuttal of property dualism, per se.

Do your homework next time.

Ed

Post 57

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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My post above crossed with Merlin's and it says, basically, the same things (because great minds think alike, I suspect  ;-)) -- only I go a step further and express my frustration with Claude in a partially-insulting manner.

Ed


Post 58

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 6:25pmSanction this postReply
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"Both Judaism and Christianity value individualism and independent thinking. Rand took advantage of those values from her parents and her society.

I replied, "Not true. Both Judaism and Christianity demand unquestioning obedience to God."

Only concretes exist. Roman Catholic doctrine and most Jewsih teaching assert that faith and reason do not conflict. Salvation in Catholicism is radically individual. As opposed to the literalist fundamentalist traditions of isl@m and certain protestant sects, Thomistic Catholicism teaches that individual happiness comes from the freely chosen adherence to God's law, not violence, blind faith or predestination. One can only take this so far, of course. Abraham the would be child-killer is admired by all these faiths. Judaism doesn't call for "unquestioning" obedience, since not belief, but adherence matters. Yeshiva students question and debate everything.

It seems strange to debate so Talmudically the niceties of negation, but to make such crude generalizations about belief systems millennia old. I understand the general intention behind the statement. But the you two understood the general intention behind the "not all A is P" matter. That merited two pages of careful analysis, but centuries of scholastic debate is dismissed in four extremely overbroad and in many cases false words, "unquestioning obedience to God."

Post 59

Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 4:35pmSanction this postReply
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If you interpret it the way that you insist on doing, yes; what I'm disputing is that that is the only valid interpretation.

 

Formal logic is not a matter of “interpretation.” You may, of course, cite professional logicians who claim that “All S is not P” can sometimes mean, if one feels like it and so wishes to interpret it, “No S is P”. I doubt you'll find anyone exceprt you to support your opinion.

 

As for your syllogism (sorry I misquoted it earlier), it is still invalid. In Aristotelian logic – that is to say, logic – you cannot quantify the predicate. A proposition like “Tom, Dick, & Harry are (all) people” is invalid for syllogistic reasoning. The predicate term never takes any particle of quantification such as “all” or “some.”

 

The reason it is invalid is that “Tom, Dick, & Harry are all people” makes two assertions; in Aristotelian logic – that is to say, logic – a proposition makes one assertion.


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