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Post 60

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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I better... what?

Ethan, is that a threat?

I apologize to people who deserve it (as I have done several times).

For the record, for all those who did not call me filthy names, dishonest, etc., who felt they were offended by me back then because they thought they were included in a blanket statement, I apologize.

How's that?

(btw - I even remember mentioning several times that I thought the posters on RoR were good people. Once again, I highly recommend reading.)

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 4/28, 12:27pm)


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Post 61

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
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"you better" meant that if you were serious about aplogising. I leave the threat to you, as you used on the Atruism vs Freedom thread. but...

You know what Michael, save your apologies. From the dishonest, they are seldom sincere. You are a deceiver and twister. Your record is clear, especially on the Altruism versus Freedom thread.

Whats more, you are just plain mean. You had a lot of friends here, and we were obviously taken in by your facade. The facts of your real nature are clear to anyone who has the endurance to read what you have written on this site. Your calous disregard for people who treated you as a friend and your unwillingness to openly admit you errors speaks volumes to the content of your mind and your sense of life.

Good Bye

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 4/28, 12:33pm)

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 4/28, 12:42pm)


Post 62

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 12:37pmSanction this postReply
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I just *had* to sanction that tennis thing (Post 38, Post 40). I love it when I see two people share excitedly and positively about something they love and excel in, even if I don't understand one iota of it!

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Post 63

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 1:18pmSanction this postReply
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More unsubstantiated opinions, Ethan?

More smear crap.

Michael


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Post 64

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 1:58pmSanction this postReply
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Ciro, you disappoint me. If you really think RoR is no better when it comes to name calling, I don't think you're being very objective. And if you think MSK is innocent, you're blinding yourself to the truth.

MSK, you shouldn't speak from a position of ignorance. The disagreements between Lindsay and I were not over what Objectivism is, but on where our priorities should be.

This is at least the second time you've tried to insinuate that most Objectivists can't agree on the philosophy, and you're just one of them. It's ridiculous. While I'm sure there are plenty of disagreements on derivative issues, it's an exaggeration (putting it mildly) to compare it to your own forms of disagreement.

Off the top of my head, here are some ideas you hold that do not align with Objectivism.

1.) You think turning the other cheek, and other Christian principles, are compatible with Objectivism.
2.) Your misunderstand the nature of volition.
3.) Your distinction between normative and cognitive is all wrong.
4.) Your understanding of rights is all wrong.
5.) You don't understand the right to life.
6.) You've suggested being altruistic is fine if it makes you feel good.
7.) You misunderstand emergency situations, and use them to promote altruism.
8.) You think price-gouging is real, and should be illegal.

I'm not sure I agree with Ethan that you're dishonest. I've seen dishonest people here. They try to make their lies convincing. Your statements are so profoundly confused, dishonesty alone cannot explain it. Only muddled thinking, general confusion, and a chaotic worldview could explain it. There might be dishonesty as well, but it's clearly not the main issue.

But here's the bottom line. Aside from promoting anti-Objectivist ideas, you've been incredibly hostile for a long time. Not just to me, but to everyone. You insult the motives of anyone who disagrees with you. Every discussion you enter ends up turning into ugly insinuations and name-calling.

It's enough. You provide no benefit to this forum anymore. I'll put you on moderation, in case you ever have something positive to contribute, but I'm not expecting much.

Post 65

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I'm so impressed.

Fred

Post 66

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 5:17pmSanction this postReply
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I'm not familiar with the context for many of the theses nailed to MSK's door; anyone have specific links (other than children/parent rights)?

Is he being moderated for differences of ideas? Or for having a scuffle with Ethan?


Post 67

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
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Aaron, have you read the entire Altruism Versus Freedom thread? I can provide a link. There were others, but that  is a good place to start.

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Post 68

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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I just *had* to sanction that tennis thing (Post 38, Post 40). I love it when I see two people share excitedly and positively about something they love and excel in, even if I don't understand one iota of it!
Thanks, Jenna! But Michael is the only one of us who excels at tennis, of course! And "excel" is probably too mild a term for it. Sometimes, we don't realize what virtuosos we have in our midst. I didn't know that Glenn Fletcher was a professor of physics either. Michael undoubtedly thinks more of his art than of his tennis at this stage, but it's still a pleasant surprise to see this kind of stellar excellence in otherwise unassuming folk on our very own RoR. Sure beats the hell out of all that other nastiness, no?!

- Bill


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Post 69

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 6:04pmSanction this postReply
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Joe, Linz thinks that you are a thief, based on his morality you are not an honest person , I really don’t see what you both agree on . In addition to that , If I think that you are not a thief, I will disappoint Linz as much as I disappointed *you* for believing that MSK is innocent-- and that your forum is not better than solo. I think that the main problem here is not about name calling, but it is about having people with different ages , and different experience of life discussing the same issues, which have different meaning to each of them. It will never work.
If for example doctor NB’s quote : “Romantic Love is for grown ups”, is read by a young man, the quote can be an incentive for the young person to act right and feel good about himself, BUT, if read by an old man, his thinking could be Nah…Viagra is… for grown ups. Now take these two persons and let them discuss objectivist ethics, and see how much they agree on any issue.

The problem with the young is that it is hard for them to understand that we have a free will only because there is a deterministic universe.

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 4/28, 6:38pm)


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Post 70

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 7:27pmSanction this postReply
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Ciro,

From my experience with Lindsay, I think he's aware of what it means to be a thief, understands Objectivist morality, etc. I don't think you'll catch him saying something like altruism is compatible with Objectivism.

The disagreements you cite have nothing to do with Objectivism. They have everything to do with Lindsay's feelings. Lindsay feels that he deserves ownership of my work, including my software and website. He feels it strongly. Enough so that he's convinced himself (and others) that it does belong to him, despite the facts. That's not Objectivism. That's emotionalism and rationalization.

As for whether Lindsay or I would be disappointed in you for those things, I suggest that you're using the wrong standards. You're trying not to offend people, instead of seeking the truth. You should look at the facts. One fact is that I own my property, and the only side to steal anything is Lindsay and Co. (who admitted to stealing my software, but then claimed that it was okay since it would really help them out). The other fact is that MSK has been more the belligerent to others.

I'm not saying MSK deserves everything he gets, nor do I expect you to come to the same conclusion. But if you can't recognize his own contributions to the hostility towards him, you are evading.

I also don't expect you to think my forum is better than other's. You can make your own value judgment. But if you think the hostility is the same on both, you're not paying attention.

Finally, I think I'll disagree with most of the rest of what you wrote too. While very different people may have different value judgments, Objectivist ethics is universal and easily agreed upon. Your confusing agreeing on moral principles with agreeing on individual application.


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Post 71

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 9:49pmSanction this postReply
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I apologize to all for the hostility - even to Ethan.

I allowed myself to be baited and I am trying to eschew that kind of reaction in my behavior.

However, I fully disagree with the characterization of my ideas and my "world view."

I request everybody (even those who have written me) to set this issue aside and get back to the ideas - and help make RoR a good strong place to be.

Michael

(Edit - for the record: http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/ArticleDiscussions/1646_12.shtml#249)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 4/28, 10:42pm)


Post 72

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 11:11pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan- Thanks. Dean had directed me to it before, but always to just the first page, which was pretty innocuous. I just waded through it (I'm not eager to read any 12000 word posts as an encore!). There is something to think somewhat about there, though that thread was truly a sad read - fiery emotions, bucketfulls of shit slung and friendships broken. In any case I would love to see apologies for the insulting hyperboles - MSK to those where there was insinuation of evil or murderers, and likewise others to him for calls of fascist/communist/piece-of-shit. Alas, I fear not everyone will soon be singing kum-ba-ya, but you can hope.

I did see and sanction maybe ten diamond-in-the-rough posts in the 350 or so. I was thankful to see Ed, Rick and Mike E. for some levelheaded insights, WSS for his offbeat but valuable ones, Luke for remarkably hardassed but good early posts (before it got personal), and Ashley and Bill Perry for writing something to laugh aloud at after all that.

There was also a very sane call near the end of the thread. Rather than moderation, the responsible personal choice whether to ignore someone - 'killfile' assisted or not - still seems the most flexible way of dealing with such volatile situations.

EDIT: Had posted without a refresh of this thread. Thanks MSK for the new apology post.

(Edited by Aaron
on 4/28, 11:16pm)


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Post 73

Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 9:02amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

I agree with you that no one should be criticizing any written material without first reading all of it, carefully.

This applies, in equal measure, to Ms. Hsieh's 12,000 word opus; to any articles in the Journal of Ayn Rand Studies; to The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics; and to A Theory of Justice by John Rawls (which you may recall that Ayn Rand reviewed in print, despite her proclamation that she hadn't read it and didn't intend to).

The problem with discussing and debating the Dialectical Dishonesty thread is that most of the people who actually took the time to read the ENTIRE thing were those who either don’t care about him or Diana and had an extra 30-45 minutes to kill or those who already dislike Chris or his work and like Diana and her work.

I can guarantee that NONE of Diana's recent critics (with the possible exception of MSK who has no problem with evading facts) has actually read this (LONG) blog and has analyzed it to the point where they can understand all of the evidence presented.

Don't assume that Ms. Hsieh's recent critics have uniformly failed to read her blog entry carefully.  For instance, I've read it twice.  And the piece may take well over 45 minutes, if you pay close attention to everything that's being said.

My personal assessment: the only points of substance that I would have anything useful to say about can't be addressed without naming names and violating more confidences than Ms. Hsieh has already.  And anything beyond that would be an exercise in pig-rasslin'.

Don't assume, either, that someone who has read carefully before critiquing must not have really read the item in question, or must be evading what he read, because he disagrees with your interpretation of it.

Robert Campbell


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Post 74

Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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"Don't assume, either, that someone who has read carefully before critiquing must not have really read the item in question, or must be evading what he read, because he disagrees with your interpretation of it."

Beyond taking up the issue of who owns private emails I have yet to see any of the critics mount a serious defense based upon the actual content of Diana's (incredibly long) blog entry. All of you are welcome to come to SOLO to present such a case if you have one. The issue of private emails is certainly an interesting (and important one), but it is secondary and ultimately amounts to an argumentative diversion when arguments regarding the actual blog entry are absent.

This topic is not particularly important to me. I have no relationship with either Diana or Chris, but when I see people like Robert B. making comments and being critical of things that they admit to having no intention of actually reading (and which are easily accessible on two well known websites including SOLO) I am going to call them on it. The same general tactics have been used by Chris’s defenders on this and other websites. If your friend is innocent of any wrongdoing he deserves a much better defense then the one he’s been given so far.

- Jason


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Post 75

Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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Jason, I think you're overlooking a basic feature of (English) jurisprudence, which is that there has to be a sufficient case made even to justify bringing charges to trial. The sheer fact that Diana wrote at length doesn't mean she presented a case which deserves to be taken seriously.

Ellen


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Post 76

Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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Jason, please note that in post #21, I made absolutely no comment as to the substance of Hsieh's latest charges. I commented on three matters of general principle, matters that others raised here:

* the general copyright status of private correspondence;

* John N's comment about what constitutes sufficient "evidence" when making public charges about the characters of others; and

* whether it is useful for Sciabarra (or anyone under personal attack) to divert his attention away from productive pursuits in order to answer yet another personal denunciation from sources whose apparent life mission is to issue at least one such denunciation per day.

May I point out that none of these issues requires specific familiarity with the content of the latest screed.

Regarding the third point above, let me be emphatic. Some people have apparently chosen to make amateur careers out of issuing moral-philosophical denunciations of others. At least, they appear to do little else than concern themselves, in a very public way, with the moral status of others. But my own experience with these people is that no responses -- no matter how many, in what level of detail, or with what measure of fact and logic -- EVER convince them to concede any error, let alone exonerate the accused. Rather, replying merely feeds these trolls, prompting them to issue an avalanche of subsequent charges based on the new communication, where immorality and irrationalism are detected in every comma.

I pose four challenges to those who have criticized me for refusing to read every new installment of this jihadist frenzy:

1. Based on the morality of self-interest, please explain to me what I, or anyone, could hope to gain personally from reading every new diatribe and screed that these people choose to issue.

2. Please explain to me why and how charges levelled against the characters of people I barely know -- all concerning disputed matters of private conduct among themselves and/or deceased third parties -- have a damned thing to do with MY life, well-being, and happiness.

3. Please explain to me exactly when I would possibly have the time to do my own work, or to have a life (i.e., activities NOT conducted online) if I were obliged to parse and judge every single post by every single partisan opining about the moral status of people who, to me, are casual acquaintances and, often, complete strangers.

4. Finally, please explain why it's "evasion" for me to refuse to divert my attention away from private, productive, rewarding pursuits and onto the private characters of remote acquaintances and strangers -- but why it is NOT "evasion" to make the moral status of others one's personal obsession.

I won't leave you in suspense about my views. My perspective is to ask the Randian question:

"What would Roark do?"

Call that simplistic, but I think a Roark would be focused on his own life, work, and values, rather than on the moral status of others far removed from his life.

I also think a Roark would not be intimidated by those who labeled him an "evader" for refusing to sacrifice that personal focus, in order to become an "enabler" of their second-hander obsessions.


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Post 77

Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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1. Based on the morality of self-interest, please explain to me what I, or anyone, could hope to gain personally from reading every new diatribe and screed that these people choose to issue.

2. Please explain to me why and how charges levelled against the characters of people I barely know -- all concerning disputed matters of private conduct among themselves and/or deceased third parties -- have a damned thing to do with MY life, well-being, and happiness.

3. Please explain to me exactly when I would possibly have the time to do my own work, or to have a life (i.e., activities NOT conducted online) if I were obliged to parse and judge every single post by every single partisan opining about the moral status of people who, to me, are casual acquaintances and, often, complete strangers.

4. Finally, please explain why it's "evasion" for me to refuse to divert my attention away from private, productive, rewarding pursuits and onto the private characters of remote acquaintances and strangers -- but why it is NOT "evasion" to make the moral status of others one's personal obsession.


You hit it on the NAIL, utterly and devastatingly! This is why I have decided, after maybe a week of speaking my mind, to now IGNORE something which has less importance to me than feeding my pet turtle (I'm feeding him for 30 years. I'll feed that "Blogging" topic specifically for at most a week). I have many, many, many days in my life left.

Gotta go, I'm doing some RPG geek gaming competition today. But thank you for stating this. It needs to be said.

"What is that you preach,
What is that you teach...

Crawl back to your grave,
Crawl back to your dark days,
Crawl back to your Stone Age..."
--The Fenwicks (Their album Eudaimonia is stellar)

Post 78

Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 12:16pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote the following and intended to post it on this thread yesterday but I was afraid it would look like I was directing it towards MSK and Ethan (which I wasn't) who were engaging in some verbal jousting at the time. So I posted it under banter. But it looks like this thread is getting back to the subject at hand so I've decided to now post it here.

For the record, I haven't read PAR or PARC, Russian Radical or any of NB's books. I may someday but they are not on the top of my reading list which is quite long and continues to grow. My focus has always been on the philosophy of Objectivism and not on the personalities of various Objectivists (though, like most, I do have some interest in Ayn Rand's life.)

I started to read Diana's "Dialectical Dishonesty" but didn't finish it because of the very reasons given by Robert Bidinotto above. Yes, I have better things to do with my time.

All that being said, here's my little limerick. Make of it what you will.

There once was a monkey named Ulysses

who liked to throw around feces,

but much to his despair,

the only ones who would care
were other monkeys throwing around feces.

(Edited by Bob Palin on 4/29, 12:23pm)


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Post 79

Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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"1. Based on the morality of self-interest, please explain to me what I, or anyone, could hope to gain personally from reading every new diatribe and screed that these people choose to issue."

I never suggested any obligation on your part to read it. However, in order to claim that something is a "diatribe and screed" you DO need to have first hand knowledge of it. Otherwise you are merely making assumptions.

"2. Please explain to me why and how charges levelled against the characters of people I barely know -- all concerning disputed matters of private conduct among themselves and/or deceased third parties -- have a damned thing to do with MY life, well-being, and happiness."

Nothing. But then again, it was you who decided to comment on the subject.

"3. Please explain to me exactly when I would possibly have the time to do my own work, or to have a life (i.e., activities NOT conducted online) if I were obliged to parse and judge every single post by every single partisan opining about the moral status of people who, to me, are casual acquaintances and, often, complete strangers."

This is a repeat question and I'll give you a repeat answer. You only have an obligation to parse and judge those posts that you plan on commenting on.

"4. Finally, please explain why it's "evasion" for me to refuse to divert my attention away from private, productive, rewarding pursuits and onto the private characters of remote acquaintances and strangers -- but why it is NOT "evasion" to make the moral status of others one's personal obsession."

I have never suggested that you are guilty of evasion. You are guilty of commenting about subjects of which you have no knowledge.

"I won't leave you in suspense about my views. My perspective is to ask the Randian question:

"What would Roark do?"

Call that simplistic, but I think a Roark would be focused on his own life, work, and values, rather than on the moral status of others far removed from his life.

I also think a Roark would not be intimidated by those who labeled him an "evader" for refusing to sacrifice that personal focus, in order to become an "enabler" of their second-hander obsessions."


Interestingly enough I made precisely the same comments in a thread started by Jody Gomez two days ago on SOLO. But based on your first post which was filled comments about "SO-LOW", and about the seriousness of the accusations I would argue that you certainly weren't taking the "I don't think of you" approach. In fact, you took the opportunity to blast people who are nothing more then "remote acquaintances and strangers" that have been critical of you in the past.  You did take time out of your self interested life to do that.


- Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 4/29, 12:29pm)


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