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Post 20

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
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Check out this article from my local paper:

Why Not?: Increasing Minimum Wage Would Be Right Thing to Do

DAVID SHREVE
GUEST COLUMNIST
Oct 29, 2006


Charlottesville. Should Virginia join the 23 states that have already approved minimum-wage increases above the $5.15 federal rate, and the six others likely to do so on November 7? Minimum-wage opponents, part of a shrinking minority, like to suggest that only the market should determine this compensation, and that government-mandated wage rates do little more than reduce job opportunities for the least skilled and least well-paid American workers. The unintended consequences, we are told, far outweigh the benefits connected to the marginal increase in hourly pay. Indeed, economics textbook examples appear to always substantiate this claim, based on the simple contention that in competitive markets where workers are not exploited on the basis of skin color, gender, or national origin and where there are many employers seeking to hire the same workforce, any involuntary pay raise -- such as a new minimum-wage mandate -- would only price these workers out of their jobs.

Textbooks Ignore Many Factors

The real economy, however, includes critical factors that these textbooks almost always ignore or shunt aside unrealistically. Too many employers, for example, remain willing to exploit the historically diminished bargaining power of women, African-Americans, and recent immigrants. Indeed, much racism and sexism continue to be difficult to erase because it rests on this kind of corrupt bargain, by which some protect their wealth or enrich themselves at least partly at the expense of others. Many other employers operate in markets where full employment does not prevail or where there are few other enterprises with which to compete for the hiring of the regional workforce. In these cases, the prevailing wage is often lower than an efficient, market-clearing standard, and a mandated raise therefore can improve economic prospects for all.
Experience also teaches us that the demand for workers is based upon the demand for the goods and services they produce, and not the price at which these workers are hired. When employers actually do compete for workers in a non-discriminatory, full-employment environment, this is why the principal ill effect is price inflation, not diminished job opportunities. Yet even this response need not take place in most of these circumstances, for what appears to be nothing more than an additional cost is typically offset by increased productivity, increasingly stable and profitable markets, lower training costs and lower employee turnover, and diminished social burdens.
Since the federal minimum-wage rate peaked in 1968 at approximately $7.60 (in current dollars), at a time when national unemployment was 3.5 percent and both profits and hiring in the service and retail sectors were rising, there is no mathematical rationale for denying the more productive employees of 2006 the same level of compensation. Despite this, irrational and all-too-customary price increases might be provoked from employers.

Economic Reasons for Raise

Proponents of the new minimum wage might be wise to consider only modest increases. But there is no reason -- economic, mathematical, or moral for Virginians to oppose a modest minimum-wage increase. To do so would be to deny the genuine and widespread economic and social benefits that would come to all Virginians by placing a greater share of general earnings into the hands of those most likely to spend it.
Indeed, such an increase would only spur additional economic activity and create additional job (and profit) opportunities where textbooks and nearsighted economists would forecast substantial job losses. And if the mandated increases cannot be revisited on a regular basis to adjust for obvious and permanent increases in the cost of living, tying increases to a median, non-supervisory wage rate (instead of the Consumer Price Index) would likely be a good way to offset the effects of inflation without triggering new and irrational price increases.
Should Virginia establish a new minimum-wage standard? Yes, by all means, for it is both the morally and economically correct thing to do.
David Shreve is an assistant professor working on the Presidential Recordings Program's Johnson Project at the University of Virginia's Miller Center of Public Affairs.


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Post 21

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 1:46pmSanction this postReply
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A woman is genetically, psychologically and physically inclined to bear children.  It's in her programming.  And it ain't always on purpose.  Sometimes no matter how much planning she has done, it just happens.  Yes, us girls have the legal option (right now anyways) to abort.  That option will go away if the religious right has their way.  While technology has given us ways to prevent and end pregnancy, childbearing is still part and parcel of being female.  Motherhood is in the nature of women.  It is not something she should be forced to control.  When you tell me "you will lose your job if you bear a child" you are penalizing me for doing what the female was designed to do.  You are coercing me to go against my nature and punishing me if I choose not to go against my nature. 

I'm not sure that "misadventure" is an appropriate term to apply to parenting.  Luke, did you intend to convey negative connotations?  In addition, I don't see how we can seriously make comparisons between soccer games, warehouse remodeling, and giving birth. 

(Edited by Ms. Deanna Delancey on 10/30, 1:51pm)


Post 22

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 2:09pmSanction this postReply
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When you tell me "you will lose your job if you bear a child" you are penalizing me for doing what the female was designed to do.  You are coercing me to go against my nature and punishing me if I choose not to go against my nature.

It's not just women. If I get cancer, sure it's not something I can control, but if it affects my performance, my employer would be well within his rights to terminate me. Your use of the term "coercion" above misses the mark. You, and all women, are free to choose whether or not to have children. But are you really advocating that you should be allowed to force someone to pay you regardless of performance and attendance. I believe you are "blanking out" in regards to coercion.

I know it might be troublesome to you, and I think most employers would voluntarily enact programs giving their female employees time off, paid or otherwise. But how can you honestly advocate the initiation of force, and do it from an individual rights standpoint?


Post 23

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 6:37pmSanction this postReply
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This statement is laughably ignorant. It is a jumble of half-digested, incoherent and unintegrated ramblings on economics from someone who has little more than a passing familiarity with the subject. He writes:
Too many employers, for example, remain willing to exploit the historically diminished bargaining power of women, African-Americans, and recent immigrants. Indeed, much racism and sexism continue to be difficult to erase because it rests on this kind of corrupt bargain, by which some protect their wealth or enrich themselves at least partly at the expense of others.
This statement is nothing more than an arbitrary assertion with no supporting evidence or any explanation as to its meaning. What, for example, is meant by "exploit" in this context? What "historically diminished bargaining power" is he referring to? What does this mean in concrete terms? He says that employers "enrich themselves at least partly at the expense of others." What is meant by "at the expense of others"? If the employment relationship is voluntary, both parties benefit; otherwise, they wouldn't enter into it.

Furthermore, the incentives in a free-market are against racism and sexism, precisely because competition among workers and employers tends to eliminate it, provided there are no barriers to it, such as minimum-wage laws and other impediments to free-labor competition like compulsory unionism, coercive labor legislation and dangerous picket-lines, which prevent competition from non-union workers.

He continues,
Many other employers operate in markets where full employment does not prevail or where there are few other enterprises with which to compete for the hiring of the regional workforce. In these cases, the prevailing wage is often lower than an efficient, market-clearing standard, and a mandated raise therefore can improve economic prospects for all.
This is the exact opposite of the truth. If employers are operating in markets where full employment does not prevail, then that means that there is a surplus of labor, in which case, the prevailing wage is higher than an efficient market-clearing standard, not lower. A legally mandated raise, far from improving economic prospects, would make them even worse than they already are!
Experience also teaches us that the demand for workers is based upon the demand for the goods and services they produce, and not the price at which these workers are hired.
It is true that the demand for workers is based (at least in part) upon the demand for the goods and services they produce. An increase in the demand for these goods and services, all other things being equal, will increase the demand for the workers needed to produce them, and shift the demand curve for labor to the right. It is also true that the demand for workers is not based on the price at which they are hired, since demand in general depends not on price but on factors other than price, such as tastes and preferences, the availability of substitutes, or the price of complementary goods and services.

Nevertheless, by focusing on demand, the writer introduces an economic red herring, because what is relevant here is the affect of price on the quantity demanded, not on demand itself. And it can fairly be stated that the price of labor does affect the quantity of workers who are hired. The higher their price, all other things equal, the fewer will be employed, just as the higher the price of a product, the fewer of its units will be purchased. Economists make a clear distinction between demand and quantity demanded, one to which the writer is apparently oblivious.
When employers actually do compete for workers in a non-discriminatory, full-employment environment, this is why the principal ill effect is price inflation, not diminished job opportunities.
Competition for workers in a full-employment environment does not cause inflation if there is no corresponding increase in the money supply. Unless the funds available to hire workers increase across the board, employers cannot increase their expenditures on labor in one sector of the economy without decreasing it in another. A general rise in nominal wages is impossible without an increase in the money supply.
Yet even this response need not take place in most of these circumstances, for what appears to be nothing more than an additional cost is typically offset by increased productivity, increasingly stable and profitable markets, lower training costs and lower employee turnover, and diminished social burdens.
Not if the additional cost is mandated by the government, for employers will not willingly pay higher prices for factors of production unless they anticipate that the additional cost will be offset by increased productivity.
Since the federal minimum-wage rate peaked in 1968 at approximately $7.60 (in current dollars), at a time when national unemployment was 3.5 percent and both profits and hiring in the service and retail sectors were rising, there is no mathematical rationale for denying the more productive employees of 2006 the same level of compensation.
If there are people willing to work for less than the minimum wage and employers willing to hire them, then that means that the supply of and demand for unskilled labor is such that employers don't consider it worth the mandatory minimum, in which case, imposing a minimum-wage law will cause unemployment to be greater than it otherwise would be.
Despite this, irrational and all-too-customary price increases might be provoked from employers.
"Irrational" price increases?? Merchants charge what the market will bear, and will only increase their prices if their marginal revenue is below their marginal cost, in which case, it is eminently rational for them to raise their prices at least to the point at which their marginal revenue equals their marginal cost, because by doing so, they will be adding to their total profit. If, however, their revenue is equal to their marginal costs, it would be foolish for them to raise their prices, and there would certainly be no incentive for them to do so, because in that case, even though their marginal profit would increase, their total profit would decline. This can be seen on a diagram of cost and revenue curves, which can be found in virtually any introductory microeconomics text.
Proponents of the new minimum wage might be wise to consider only modest increases. But there is no reason -- economic, mathematical, or moral for Virginians to oppose a modest minimum-wage increase.
On the contrary, there is every reason, economic, mathematical and moral to oppose a minimum-wage increase, even a modest one.
To do so would be to deny the genuine and widespread economic and social benefits that would come to all Virginians by placing a greater share of general earnings into the hands of those most likely to spend it.
This is typical Keynesian blather which views saving as hoarding -- as a withdrawal from the spending stream. But savings are invested and thereby spent on capital goods, which are the bedrock of job creation.
Indeed, such an increase would only spur additional economic activity and create additional job (and profit) opportunities where textbooks and nearsighted economists would forecast substantial job losses.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! What unbelievable arrogance, coming from a non-economist who has the audacity to call economists nearsighted and to tell them what they presumably don't know about their own discipline, and this after demonstrating his own stunning ignorance of the subject.
And if the mandated increases cannot be revisited on a regular basis to adjust for obvious and permanent increases in the cost of living, tying increases to a median, non-supervisory wage rate (instead of the Consumer Price Index) would likely be a good way to offset the effects of inflation without triggering new and irrational price increases.
Absolutely incredible!
Should Virginia establish a new minimum-wage standard? Yes, by all means, for it is both the morally and economically correct thing to do.

David Shreve is an assistant professor working on the Presidential Recordings Program's Johnson Project at the University of Virginia's Miller Center of Public Affairs.
Assistant professor of what? How curious that he doesn't tell us.

- Bill


Post 24

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 8:49pmSanction this postReply
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Ms. Delancy,

"I don't see how we can seriously make comparisons between soccer games, warehouse remodeling, and giving birth."

What of the babies of the warehouse owner, and her employees, and their families? Surely all of their unplanned babies count for something too?

Here's the thing: NO ONE OWES YOU A JOB UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Value for value is what trading is about. Forcing someone to "employ" you at the point of a gun when they've decided differently is immoral.

"You are coercing me to go against my nature and punishing me if I choose not to go against my nature."

I'm sorry, I've just lost the will to try to take you seriously.

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Post 25

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 10:49pmSanction this postReply
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Deanna,

You have to realize that the natural function of males is to get loud and abusive in capital letters and to call you a possible out-blanker, even though, from your avatar itself, they should see that what they are dismissing is what you yourself obviously regard as one of you highest callings and values. Although they may be technically correct in arguing that we can't solve the possible problem of mothers having to choose between their children and their jobs by instituting welfare programs and labor regulations, you are absolutely right that there is a huge difference between soccer matches and pregnancies, and an analogy to cancer is not only weird (since women do get cancer too) it is perverse, in so far as it compares a child to a tumor.

The truth is that Rand did not have or want children, so it was never a developed part of Objectivism, The Philosophy of Ayn Rand. She pretty much seems to have viewed family itself as a necessary evil, and she paid little more than lip-service to motherhood. If you look at the poll question results, and consider the fact that Objectivism has been around for over 40 years, yet no one here claims to have been raised Objectivist, you might be tempted to draw certain conclusions. Motherhood and child-rearing are not just side issues of reality. And so far as they remain just a side issue to an intentionally chosen way of life, that way of life is doomed to demographic deletion.

Properly, Objectivism should address biological issues in toto from the viewpoints of human nature and evolutionary and ecological science. You may have noted that there is an on-going string here that is very concerned with life-extension. Is there just as much an interest among Objectivists about life-creation?

As an ethical matter, Objectivism should glorify motherhood, yet also warn women that since they are much more powerful than men, they must also be much more careful than men. In a totally free society, the question of the responsibility of a man to raise children he conceives out of wedlock would seem to be an open one. As it lays now, while a woman can terminate a pregnancy (something I regard less as a right than as a tragedy) rather freely, she can also sue a man for child support should she decide to raise a child that he has begotten, even if he protests that he had a pre-existing agreement with the woman that she would not put that burden upon him. To a certain extent, one can also argue that a man who fathers children whom he chooses not to support is like a litterbug on a much more perilous scale. Children are just not the sort of thing that one goes around casually discarding. It is because women are different from men and that pair-bonds are special that society, over millennia, has developed the conventions of common-law marriage, adoption, alimony, and child-support. Since the large-scale entry of women into the workplace is less than a century old, and since voluntary single-motherhood is an even more recent development, institutions and accepted mores to deal with single working mothers are not settled matters explicitly worked out in the same way as, say, property and criminal law.

As it currently stands, you are not going to find any sympathy here in forcing employers to treat single mothers specially. Even in the case where a woman is raped and then chooses to bear the child, no Objectivist is going to claim that this places any special burden upon an employer. Likewise, while, in the traditions of our past, family and religious charities would have been expected to step in to help raise a child, family and (yikes!) churches or even secular charities are not things that are going to attract the attention of many dog-eat-dog each-man-for-himself capitalist egoists. But market based ameliorations and solutions can be thought up. Intelligent young children get scholarships nowadays if they volunteer for military service. Something of the sort might be possible for the support of poor children and orphans. A child might go to a co-op home-school and then attend college on the assumption that he will pay for his education afterwards as a loan, but a loan arranged privately rather than Federally. Keep in mind that much of the cost of raising a child is artificially inflated through our currently socialized health and education systems. If retired adults could teach children without having to be certified, licensed, stamped, inspected...well, you get the idea. From my sister's experience, I'll bet that perhaps the worst and most expensive necessity of childrearing will be the time and resources spent on keeping a child properly diapered. My sister made a joke about free-range babies. I don't know how much was simple humor and how much a desperate longing.

In any case, there are many issues, such as concern for the environment, "alternative lifestyles," animal-welfare, child-rearing, and so on that Rand did not care about, but which Objectivists should take seriously. And these issues will be better addressed than they have been if Objectivists do turn their attention upon them. Maybe you could start a string with a few paragraphs asking how your concerns might be addressed?

Shame on anyone for belittling a mother, a passionate valuer and newcomer to rational egoism! Mothers and children come first.

Ted Keer, 31 October, 2006, NYC

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Post 26

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 4:54amSanction this postReply
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Deanna asked:

I'm not sure that "misadventure" is an appropriate term to apply to parenting.  Luke, did you intend to convey negative connotations? 

Who in hell sanctioned Post 21?

Yes, I did intend negative connotations.  An adventure has a planned start and finish with rational precautions taken before the fact.  A misadventure lacks those rational elements.  Any fool who copulates can become a parent and engage in a misadventure.  See my article "Questions and Motives" to learn of a coworker's inadvertent conception to learn more about this.  By contrast, an Objectivist who copulates takes necessary precautions and considers how every act can become a cause yielding an effect.  Thus, for an Objectivist, parenting becomes an adventure.

Since you choose to appeal to genetic determinism, two can play that game.  I should just as well excuse men who cheat on their wives due to their "programming" to do so.  What you miss is the human power of choice which is the root of reason and the source of the Objectivist concept of the sovereign individual totally self-responsible for his own life.

Like Mike Erickson, I have difficulty taking you seriously when you make such arguments.

Ted wrote:

The truth is that Rand did not have or want children, so it was never a developed part of Objectivism, The Philosophy of Ayn Rand. She pretty much seems to have viewed family itself as a necessary evil, and she paid little more than lip-service to motherhood. If you look at the poll question results, and consider the fact that Objectivism has been around for over 40 years, yet no one here claims to have been raised Objectivist, you might be tempted to draw certain conclusions.

Ayn Rand's mother openly declared motherhood a horrible burden as noted in the documentary Ayn Rand: A Sense of Life.  I have no doubt this early negative exposure influenced Ayn Rand's own views to some degree even if she never said so openly.  That said, we clearly have enthusiastic parents on this site in the RoR Parenting forum.  Furthermore, I know of some Objectivists who have raised their children with Objectivist values who in turn grew into Objectivist adults.  The offspring of ARI supporter Michael Berliner and TAS supporter Marsha Enright come to mind.

The bottom line: Do you love children enough to become able and willing to pay the price to bear and raise them?  If yes, then do it.  If not, then do not.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 10/31, 5:04am)


Post 27

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Keer,

"Shame on anyone for belittling a mother, a passionate valuer and newcomer to rational egoism! Mothers and children come first."

Good Lord! What office are you running for?

Post 28

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 8:14amSanction this postReply
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Dog Catcher?

Post 29

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 11:56amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Ted.  If you're the dog catcher, then I must be the dog.  Woof, woof!

Post 30

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
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I'm not advocating being paid regardless of performance or attendance.  And neither does FMLA.  FMLA is for job protection only.  It says that an employer with 50 or more employees must allow a woman to take up to 12 weeks of absence due to childbirth or adoption and still have a job to return to.  It does not say the employer must pay that woman for those 12 weeks nor does it say that the employer should provide benefits during those 12 weeks (except that her access to group insurance be maintained - note access, not employer contributions toward).  If the woman's performance or attendance have historically been sub-par then the employer should have already dealt with those issues.

Post 31

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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Actually there have been a number of studies that have shown no adverse impact from the minimum wage
and that it has made the difference between getting
a leg up and not for many workers. You market
fundies might want to take a look at Robert Kuttner's
Everything For Sale, in which he discusses where he
sees markets working and where he doesn't. The idea
that every working relationship is voluntary and nonexploitative because the alternative is starvation is nonsense. If you haven't expereinced serous discrimination
as a disabled or older person or person of color or gender
discrimination, then frankly your opinion that it doesn't
exist is meaningless. There are groups like the Center
for Budget Priorities that actually have made studies
that point to serious failings in the market and of GOP
governmental policies. The various Civil Rights Laws in
employment, housing, public accomodations, etc. would
not have had to been enacted if the market was taking
care of everything, obviously it isn't. What's interesting
about the discussion here is the pathetic moralistic blathering intended to smother dissent. Rand is like an anti-Marx to the true believers here. No nuances, no grays, no exceptions, etc., nothing resembling real life.
Ok, boys, sorry for the interruption, please resume
Bible studies.


Post 32

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 1:10pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Lord said:
What's interesting about the discussion here is the pathetic moralistic blathering intended to smother dissent.
No one is trying to "smother dissent".  They are just applying the principle that one should understand something before one dissents against it.


Post 33

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 1:18pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn, would you believe that there are economists who
have another point of view on this matter ? That not
everyone sees the laissez-faire viewpoint as a self-evident
truth ? Kuttner is Harvard educated up the gazoo and I'll
certainly match his or Galbraith's credentials against Dwyer or the other posters here. I'm not even saying I agree with that viewpoint but what is extremely annoying is the lockstep mentality that I see here. Ridicule, sarcasm,
moralistic hot airism are not pretty sights. And I see a
whole lot of that on this & other objectivist-libertarian
so-called sites.


Post 34

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 2:06pmSanction this postReply
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Jack:
I'm not impressed by someone's academic credentials.  Many academics use their erudition to justify their premises, which they arrived at through their feelings.  They're just better at debating than the average person.  Also, if you pick the most stupid idea that exists out there in "idea space", it was most likely created by a highly educated person.

As to "Ridicule, sarcasm, [and] moralistic hot airism", I think that this thread has been quite cordial.  As to the "lockstep mentality"; this is an Objectivist site.  Most people here accept the basic principles of Objectivism.  So, why would you expect them not to agree with each other?

(Edited by Glenn Fletcher on 10/31, 2:07pm)


Post 35

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 2:49pmSanction this postReply
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and as for Galbraith - even he, with all of those credentials, came to realize he was wrong about his socialist views, that they are not true in the real world......

Post 36

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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You may not be impressed with their credentials but I am because I can appreciate the effort and hard work that
it takes to obtain that sort of position. But more importantly I respect the hard reasoning that has gone
in to Kuttner's works as well as many others. I understand
that this is a site for like minded people but I was just curious as to the reaction that dissent would get and it's
about what I expected. I'll be the judge as to how "cordial" people here are, some are and some aren't
and the cordiality is for those of like mind.
We will have to agree to disagree.


Post 37

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn, I responded to your second email to me but it never showed up. I have a great deal of respect for the
hard work and intelligence it takes to procure an academic post in today's highly competitive world.
More importantly I appreciate the content of the arguments of Kuttner and others.
"Cordiality" here is certainly a mixed bag. Some people
are ok if you agree with them and others are just nasty
& profane as I experienced on another thread.
I was curious to see the reaction to a dissent from
sacred dogma and it's about what I expected.
No one really likes dissent from their assertions.
So we agree to disagree. 


Post 38

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 4:01pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, that's not true, Galbraith never repudiated his
social democratic views.


Post 39

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
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I'm not advocating being paid regardless of performance or attendance.  And neither does FMLA.  FMLA is for job protection only.  It says that an employer with 50 or more employees must allow a woman to take up to 12 weeks of absence due to childbirth or adoption and still have a job to return to.
But either way it's still about forcing someone to do something against their will. True freedom also means the freedom to make wrong decisions, decisions that might not be in one's self-interest (drug laws anyone?).


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