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Friday, October 27, 2006 - 7:05amSanction this postReply
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Commensurate with this comes the need to repeal laws regarding "acceptable" housing.  People living on low wages need affordable housing even if it does not meet some bureaucrat's "standards" for "safe" housing.  Local regulations forbidding boarding houses, etc. just make it harder for poor people to find shelter.

Minimum wage laws simply reflect the deeper problem of the voting public deceiving itself into believing it can legislate natural laws of economics out of existence.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 10/27, 7:06am)


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Friday, October 27, 2006 - 7:57amSanction this postReply
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"..there should be no Minimum Wage Law."

Agreed. Unfortunately that would be only a drop in the bucket:

http://www.elinfonet.com/fedlaws.php

Post 2

Friday, October 27, 2006 - 9:11amSanction this postReply
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It is amazing how hard it is to argue with people about this.  It is as if you need to give them a book on economics.  Rather than teach social indoctrination, schools should give every student a solid grounding in basic economics.  This is as important as Math, Science, History, and English is.

Post 3

Friday, October 27, 2006 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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Good post, though I would also add that the minimum wage necessarily causes inflation as well, as all those 5.15 an hour employees think they'll have an extra $2 per hour to buy things, except the people that make all those other things are also making $2 more, which essentially negates any wage increase on the jobs that werent outright eliminated.

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Friday, October 27, 2006 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,
I don't want to hijack this thread.  I wonder if you'd be willing to open a new thread explaining your opposition to each of those federal employment laws?


Post 5

Friday, October 27, 2006 - 2:59pmSanction this postReply
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In my high school Economics class, we recently learned that free enterprise is, "producers, consumers, and the government working together in an open market" or some garbage like that. Hahaha.

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Post 6

Friday, October 27, 2006 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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Great article Wesley! I was just about to submit a similar one myself, but you beat me to it -- stole my thunder, as it were! :-) That's okay. Yours is more succinct and to the point and has a somewhat different emphasis and focus, which I enjoyed. Rather than post another article on the same topic, I'll add mine to the comments section, even though there's definitely some overlap:

The minimum-wage law has long been favored by both political parties. Virtually no one in the media nor anyone in the political arena considers it a bad law. Yet a curious paradox surrounds its almost universal acceptance, and that is the tacit assumption that we must somehow not raise it “too” high – that there is a maximum minimum-wage law, which no one bothers to identify. California's minimum wage was recently raised to $8.00 an hour, up from $6.75, and some cities in California have exceeded even that, notably San Francisco at $8.82 an hour. Right now, only 6 states in the union have no minimum-wage laws, but they're still subject to the federal minimum, whereas 18 have minimum-wage laws that exceed the federal standard.

A minimum wage is what economists call a “price floor," because it places a floor under the price of labor, preventing it from falling below that level. Farm price supports are another example of a price floor. To the extent they are effective, all price floors create a surplus of the good or service being bought and sold, because they prevent the price from falling low enough to clear the market. Since it's in the interest of the producer to sell his product or service, he will typically drop the price if the supply exceeds the demand. And as the price declines, people will be willing and able to buy more of it.

In the case of labor, the sellers are, of course, the workers; and the buyers, the employers. In an effort to sell their labor services, workers tend to underbid their competitors if they can't find a buyer. However, if a law is passed making it illegal for them to engage in price competition with other workers, then not only will they be less able to find a buyer for their labor services, but average wages will be higher, which means that employers won't be able to hire as many workers. Thus, there will be a surplus of labor, another word for which is "unemployment." The higher is the minimum wage relative to the market clearing price of labor, the greater is the level of unemployment.

Suppose, for example, that a minimum-wage law were passed making it illegal for anyone to work as a secretary for less than $30.00 an hour. Those businesses that couldn't afford to hire secretaries at that wage would be forced to lay them off and/or not hire any new ones. There would, of course, be some highly skilled and experienced secretaries who were worth $30.00 an hour or more. So, they would continue to be employed and to find new employment. But any secretary who wasn't worth $30.00 an hour, because he or she was just starting out and didn't have as much experience or expertise, wouldn't be able to find a job doing that kind of work, which would prevent the new and inexperienced worker from ever acquiring the job skills necessary to command a wage of $30.00 an hour.

Such a law would discriminate against the least skilled, least experienced workers by making it impossible for them to compete against those who were already well established in that field and had acquired the necessary skill and experience to command that high a wage. A law that made it illegal to work as a secretary for less than $30 an hour would discriminate against the very people it was intended to help, namely those who otherwise would not be offered $30.00 an hour because they didn't yet have the requisite qualifications and were not, therefore, worth hiring at the mandatory minimum.

The minimum-wage law is a perfect vehicle for limiting labor competition, which is why such a law is so heavily favored by labor unions. In South Africa under apartheid, a minimum-wage law was endorsed by white unions, because it prevented competition from black workers who were willing to work for lower wages. A minimum-wage law passed in 1933 under the National Industrial Recovery Act was estimated to have thrown 500,000 African Americans out of work. (See Only One Place of Redress: African Americans, Labor Regulations & The Courts from Reconstruction to the New Deal by David E. Bernstein, 2001)

Since the ostensible purpose of a minimum-wage law is to raise the wages of the least skilled workers in society, the law is a study in irony, since it has the effect, not of raising their wages, but of lowering them all the way to zero by pricing these workers out of the labor market. The minimum-wage law is a dramatic illustration of the law of unintended consequences. Rather than giving the least skilled workers in our society a better paying job, it deprives them of a job altogether.

The minimum-wage law also violates the rights of the least skilled workers to bargain with their prospective employers and to negotiate a contract by mutual consent to mutual advantage. In other words, the law sabotages freedom of competition in the labor market and in the product market, by preventing competing workers from lowering their demand for wages, and competing firms from lowering their costs of production and therefore the prices of their products.

Any worker who is willing to perform the same service as a competing worker, but for a lower price is morally entitled to the job, if the employer is willing to hire him. Yet, if the lower priced offer is below the minimum-wage, the employer is forced to hire the more expensive candidate, thus denying to the competing candidate the right to earn the job by offering the employer a greater value in return for the service. This moral transgression and callous assault on the rights of competing workers is completely overlooked in discussions of the minimum-wage law. It is time that opponents of the minimum-wage reclaim the moral high ground. A minimum-wage law is not only uneconomic; it is also immoral, because it violates a worker's bargaining rights and denies employment to the most deserving candidates.

- Bill

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Friday, October 27, 2006 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
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it is also immoral, because it violates a worker's bargaining rights and denies employment to the most deserving candidates.

It is claimed by those who support this, that such workers have no bargaining rights [other than in theory, perhaps], but are at the mercy of the employer - thus the needing of this floor......


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Friday, October 27, 2006 - 5:44pmSanction this postReply
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I have my doubts about economics in #3.  Inflation requires an increase in the money supply, and minimum-wage laws don't affect this one way or another.  If you get a $2 raise you really do have an extra $2 to spend.  Some combination of

- employers (i.e. stockholders, usually)
- workers who lose their jobs because of the law
- consumers who pay more for the product of higher-wage workers

have correspondingly less.  Thus no change in the money supply and no inflation.

Peter


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Post 9

Friday, October 27, 2006 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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I have my doubts about economics in #3.  Inflation requires an increase in the money supply, and minimum-wage laws don't affect this one way or another.
Similarly, increased oil prices do not cause inflation, even though the price of oil factors into most goods, whether through shipping or manufacturing costs. If the price of oil and goods associated with it rise, people will simply buy less. Since no change in the money supply has occurred, there is no inflation. Although, rising oil prices could be said to drive inflation if the Fed were to observe the economic letdown associated with rising oil prices, and subsequently increase the money supply in an attempt to kickstart the economy.  But that is another matter entirely...


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Friday, October 27, 2006 - 8:28pmSanction this postReply
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It is as if you need to give them a book on economics.
You most likely do!


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Post 11

Friday, October 27, 2006 - 8:47pmSanction this postReply
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Deanna, although I was not familiar with all the laws listed, a cursory examinatioin leads me to believe that they are all violations of free association, which has been upheld by numerous courts as a right protected by the due process clause of the 14th amendment. More importantly, these laws are all a violation of the principles of liberty and individual rights.

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Post 12

Friday, October 27, 2006 - 10:09pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote that the minimum-wage law "is also immoral, because it violates a worker's bargaining rights and denies employment to the most deserving candidates.

Robert Malcolm replied,
It is claimed by those who support this, that such workers have no bargaining rights [other than in theory, perhaps], but are at the mercy of the employer - thus the needing of this floor......
This reply misses the point entirely. The minimum-wage law prevents a worker from bargaining with a prospective employer, because it prevents him from offering to work for lower wages in order to get hired. Bargaining doesn't simply consist of asking for higher wages; it also consists in asking for a job. In bargaining with an employer, one is competing with other workers who are themselves bidding for the same job. In such cases, one bargains with the employer by making a counter-offer in competition with other applicants, either by offering to do the same work for less money or by offering more or better services for the same money.

Unions and the labor legislation that supports them have all but eliminated individual bargaining, replacing it with collective bargaining in which workers are denied the right to bargain individually with employers or prospective employers. Unions have traditionally been opposed to free labor competition, as evidenced by their use of the picket line to keep out competing workers, and the standard practice of resorting to physical intimidation, coercion and violence against competing workers whom the unions pejoratively label "scabs." Yet these tactics, which amount to an assault on workers' rights, are condoned by law, as little is ever done to prohibit unions from resorting to violence and intimidation against competing workers.

Contrary to leftist propaganda, unions, labor legislation and minimum-wage laws are not pro-worker or pro-labor. They are anti-worker and anti-labor. Unions do not compete against employers or "the bosses"; they compete against other workers by their willingness to work for lower wages and to offer the employer a better deal -- which is something that unions and labor legislation seek to prohibit. In much the same way, minimum-wage laws interfere with the rights of workers -- the right to compete for the business of employers.

Leftists claim that historically, in the absence of unions, the individual worker was the victim of an unequal exchange with the capitalist in which he lacked the power in bargain for wages above subsistence level. The assumption underlying this charge is that during the industrial revolution, the British economy was largely monopolistic or oligopolistic – that employers were not competing for the labor of workers and that workers had no employment alternatives.

In fact, as Professor Clark Nardinelli observes, “the British economy was highly competitive in the first half of the nineteenth century." The main evidence for this comes from census and factory returns. These returns indicate that the economy included an indefinitely large number of small firms. The typical business was small in most major occupations. A survey of the economy in 1851 indicates that few firms had more than 100 employees, even in industries using machinery. Small companies with fewer than 10 employees were common in many major industries. (Clark Nardinelli, Child Labor and the Industrial Revolution, Indiana University Press, Bloomington & Indianapolis, 1990, p. 72.)

If competition existed, then it can be inferred that firms paid competitive wages. As economist John Bates Clark points out, competition among employers for workers virtually guarantees that the employer must offer a wage corresponding to the worker’s marginal productivity. Individual employers cannot depress wages or working conditions for any significant period of time, because they must compete for labor by paying wages and/or offering working conditions at least at the level of the next highest bidder. The relatively low wages and poor working conditions during the industrial revolution were due not the arbitrary power of the employer under laissez-faire capitalism but to the relatively low level of productivity at that stage of economic development. (John Bates Clark, The Distribution of Wealth: A Theory of Wages, interest, and Profit, MacMillan, New York, 1914 [1899], p. viii.)

It is sometimes argued that the employer has greater bargaining power than the worker, because he has more reserve funds and can hold out longer. But if a lack of reserve funds reduces bargaining power, then why, asks Morgan Reynolds, "were real wages nearly always rising under non-union capitalism? …Why did workers with great savings receive no higher wage than those with zero savings, even though they could 'hold out longer'? Why did large firms pay higher wages than small firms…?" (Cf. Morgan O. Reynolds, Power and Privilege: Labor Unions in America, Universe Books, New York, 1984, p. 60.) The answer is that, in the absence of monopsony, employees have alternatives, which require employers to compete for their labor.

Moreover, any time a worker has even one other employment alternative, as the factory workers certainly did in the nineteenth century, he or she has the power to bargain for higher wages. If the employer offers a wage that is not competitive, the employee has the option of working elsewhere.

Unions, labor legislation and minimum-wage laws are the real enemies of bargaining power among workers, just as they are the real enemies of workers' rights.

- Bill

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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Ms Deanna,

"I wonder if you'd be willing to open a new thread explaining your opposition to each of those federal employment laws?"

I don't think a lifetime is enough for one person to discuss all of the federal employment laws. Perhaps you could narrow it down a little?

In general I believe laws regulating "employment" assume a class distinction which I think is artificial. A trader is a trader, whether what he is trading is goods, services, or labor. Laws should be general, protecting against fraud and coercion, not specifically stacked in favor of one "class" of people against another. As well as creating another specialized class of non-productive "protectors" and "administrators".

See Ludwig Von Mises "Bureaucracy".

Post 14

Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 2:14amSanction this postReply
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If they keep raising the minimum wage, they'll basically price most folks out of decent regular jobs. And being one of those folks, I'm dead set against the minimum wage as it implies I'm owed a wage that must fit a one-size-fits-all method, which is horse puckey. If Bill down the street does a better job than me, he ought to get a better wage. But if I do better than John, I should have a better wage than him. All the minimum wage promotes is slothfulness at the workplace. I bet if the minimum wage was taken away, among the scores of other legal 'nanny' laws, we would probably see more productivity in the workplace, better wages over all [since the other nanny laws would be done away with to offset the change], and just a better chance for everyone to find a job that fits his/her skills.

-- Bridget

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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Mike and Jonathan,
Thanks for your replies.  I'm not sure I understand "free association" and what that entails.  And I'm not getting the "class distinction", either.  (Not trying to be argumentative, but to understand.)  In the list of employement laws on the site posted, FMLA stood out to me, first.  I don't think it's wrong for a woman to expect her job to still be available if she needs leave to give birth, recover and establish a routine for that child in the home.  Since that is in the nature of a woman, I would consider that part of her individual rights.  Denying her this would infringe upon those rights, and isn't Objectivism about protecting individual rights?

(Now I've officially hijacked, and I'm deeply sorry!)


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Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 11:15amSanction this postReply
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Deanna wrote:

I don't think it's wrong for a woman to expect her job to still be available if she needs leave to give birth, recover and establish a routine for that child in the home.  Since that is in the nature of a woman, I would consider that part of her individual rights.  Denying her this would infringe upon those rights, and isn't Objectivism about protecting individual rights?

Women can choose whether or not to bear children.  Why should an employer spend extra money just to accommodate the parental desires of his employees?

I should add that men can request time from work also to bond with their newborn infants.

Just because a woman "can" have a baby does not mean she "ought" to have a baby or "must" have a baby.  By consequence, an employer has no "duty" to an employee regarding issues of that employee's parental misadventures.

Why stop at childbirth?  Why not "reasonable accommodations" to grant leave to parents for babysitting or educational outings or soccer games?

An employer pays an employee to do a job without excuses -- period.  Any employee who wants to dabble in activities that interfere with one's ability to produce values for the employer had better jolly well think twice!


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Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 11:42amSanction this postReply
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Denying her this would infringe upon those rights
Not actually. You are assuming that one has a right to a job. Since a job is something that must be provided by another person, any supposed right to a job, would necessarily entail the right to another man's life. Imagine that I show up on your doorstep and demand that you pay me money in return for my performing a service. If you believe I have a right to a job, this is perfectly acceptable (never mind the fact that someone's real rights are being violated). So no it is not a right for a woman to do whatever she wishes and remain employed. As far as free association, just think of having the right to choose who you associate with voluntarily. Whereas laws protecting certain people, no matter how well intentioned, mean initiating force and denying individuals the right to make that choice.


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Post 18

Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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Ms. Deanna,

(Now I've officially hijacked, and I'm deeply sorry!)"

You have not hijacked the thread, your comments illustrate the principles involved perfectly well. Please pardon me if my remarks seem particularly blunt. I know many people, family and acquaintances, who I am very fond of and who have the same view of "rights" as you have.

You say:

"I don't think it's wrong for a woman to expect her job to still be available if she needs leave to give birth, recover and establish a routine for that child in the home. Since that is in the nature of a woman, I would consider that part of her individual rights."

A perceived need of yours does not create an obligation for others to fulfill that need. With respect to employers, an employer is someone who is willing to trade a portion of his profits in exchange for the values gained from other entities necessary for the success of his enterprise. Take the example of one of these entities is a supplier of parts. What would you say if a supplier informed the businessman "I have to shut down for three months to remodel my warehouse. During that time I will not deliver any parts. I demand that when I'm finished remodeling my warehouse that we continue business as usual. You are not allowed to find an alternate supplier except on an interim basis." Now depending on the relationship the buyer and seller of parts had before hand they may work something out and continue in business, but only by agreement based on mutual benefit and past history. But for an outside entity to apply coercion to the situation requires the mafia or the federal government to be involved. Surely you can see that the supplier of parts has no "right" to demand that a customer continue doing business with him in those circumstances. It is no different if the "supplier" is supplying parts or labor services of some kind. The only thing that makes it seem different is if you are conditioned to recognize "class" distinctions of "labor" and "management" with labor having special rights and management (or employers) having special obligations. And the government in the position of "parent" regulating the transactions skewed in favor of the "needs" of labor. The more special "rights" labor has in the US the more companies will go outside of the US for their labor. Or find ways to do without that labor. Absolutely predictable. So you're creating a situation where it is easy to keep a job if you ever get one, but very, very hard to get one in the first place. Unless you work for a temporary agency who will take half of your earnings. Deservedly because they are taking on most of the risk of employing you.

With regards to rights in general, Mr. Dwyer perhaps will provide links to previous threads regarding the difference between "positive" and "negative" rights.

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Post 19

Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 2:51pmSanction this postReply
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With regards to rights in general, Mr. Dwyer perhaps will provide links to previous threads regarding the difference between "positive" and "negative" rights.
I don't have them at hand; perhaps someone else does. In any case, I don't much care for this classification or terminology, according to which, a positive right is the right to someone else's labor or property, whereas a negative right is a right to one's own labor or property. Why isn't the latter called a "positive right," since it implies a right to something positive -- to that which one owns. In any case, it is obvious that this classification was created by someone who favored so-called positive rights over so-called negative ones.

In case anyone here would like an example of a "positive" right, a plantation owner's "right" to the labor of black field hands is a "positive right," because it denies to the field hands the right to refuse service. Similarly, a right to health care is a "positive right," because the health-care providers (e.g., the doctors and nurses who provide the care and the taxpayers who are billed for it) have no right to refuse to provide service to whoever needs it. Still another example of a positive right is the military's right to the service of young men and women, even if they choose not to enlist, since the conscripts have no right to refuse to serve their country.

Anyone who has the audacity to refer to these so-called rights as "positive" is someone who believes in and supports involuntary servitude, another name for which is "slavery." Let's call a spade "a spade," shall we?! Yet there is no dearth of academics and other intellectuals who are quick to endorse a whole catalogue of "positive rights" from the right to a job, to the right to a decent wage, to the right to fair housing, to the right to a public education, and on and on. Conveniently ignored in this list of so-called positive rights is an answer to the question: "Provided BY WHOM?! By economic slaves whose forced labor and the fruits thereof are considered natural resources to be exploited by the political equivalent of antebellum plantation owners.

It is time to jettison the terminology of "positive" versus "negative" rights. Positive rights are neither positive, nor are they rights. What they are is an egregious violation of truly positive rights, namely, the rights to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness and property.

- Bill

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