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Post 20

Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 7:53amSanction this postReply
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Here's a quite troubling article on a subject related to how a nation deals with ACCUSED criminals:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N23410381.htm


Post 21

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:59pmSanction this postReply
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My Secret Friends in the Adminis...(Oops, I've Said Too Much...)


John,

Constitutional guarantees and civil rights (i.e., the rights of citizens within a domestic context) neither apply to enemy combatants seized overseas nor with activities intercepted out of the country conducted with foreign nationals overseas. The detention at Guantanamo of people seized in non-uniformed combat is neither proscribed by the U.S. law, the U.S. constitution or in contravention of an treaty to which the U.S. is party. The NSA wiretapping might be governed by our treaties with foreign governments, but except for that potentiality, foreigners in foreign countries have no rights for their conversations to be protected. The content of these wiretapped conversations may then only be used against any Americans under the use of immanent threat, a long established grounds for law-enforcement and military action without warrant or declaration of war, or must then be subject to judicial review. Since both the Guantanamo detentions and the NSA wiretaps have been subject to judicial review and have been authorized by congress, I see no grounds upon which to view them as either extra-legal, unconstitutional, or any violations of anyone's civil liberties.

Further, Andre, your post is simply a repetition of allegations and evaluations, without producing any single fact, new or repeated:

"amoral, unprincipled, fascist... detaining without charge, denying habeas corpus, torturing... extreme criminals... wildly violate the constitution, federal law, the Uniformed Military Code, and Geneva Conventions with little restraint... [vs. wildly with much restraint?] covering-up their activities... intimidation of any whistle-blowers...[like when Putin told Bush how to knock off every investigative reporter at the NYTimes?] dishonestly, cowardly, foolishly named "war on terror,"... Nazi... pseudo-war... extreme incompetence and confusion... illiberal, un-American, sneaky, secret fashion..."

I'll grant the incompetent, cowardly, and foolishly named bit. But I expect you may have been dragged of by jack-booted thugs before you read this email...

John & Andre, I understand if either of you simply doesn't like Bush, or thinks that he has handled this war badly. But I don't see the point of accusing him of things he hasn't done. I am sitting here giggling when I read your words. I know that Andre and I share a mutual contempt for our isl*mic enemy. I assume the same with you, John. I have gone so far as to decide neither to capitalize nor spell out their name in these posts in contempt for what I see as little more than a dirty word. Maybe you should do the same with "shrub?"

as for:

"let's not forget all the stuff Bush et al do that we don't know about yet"

I haven't yet forgotten about the fact (that I don't yet know about) that he drinks the blood of Christian babies and that he uses what's left over to make matzoh, that he's a secret chicken-f*cker - oh, wait, that was the caricaturized Objectivist on South Park, that he's actually a space alien...

I will admit, that if it turned out that we were indeed torturing illegal combatants caught on foreign soil, it would not make me loose to much sleep. But I wish, (God, how I wish) that your wild allegations were true, (or, rather, close to true) rather than what is apparent, that we are holding back and allowing our hands to be tied for nothing other than altruism and cowardice in the face of domestic criticism. Either Bush is an evil genius, or an incompetent dunce. I doubt he's an evil genius whose convinced he's an incompetent dunce, but who can't manage to accomplish much else.

If either of you wants to draw this out further, I am still open to hearing about the violations of the rights of American citizens on American soil. Back under Pinochet there were mothers marching to ask where their poor Marxist sons who had been "disappeared" had gone. The names of these people was and is a matter of record. Please just name to me one such American citizen and I will accept your claims. Otherwise, just please go out and vote Democrat if you must. I will not let my secret friends in the adminis...(oops, I've said too much...)

Ted

Post 22

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 4:01pmSanction this postReply
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I am still open to hearing about the violations of the rights of American citizens on American soil
Ted,
It seems to me, that implicit in your statements is the notion that rights are not something that are inalienable and posessed by every man, but rather priveleges that are granted only to citizens whose Governments recognize these rights. Your contention that enemy combatants have forfeited their rights may be true, but is hardly relevant. I don't think you'll find anyone here who disagrees that criminals who happen to be American citizens similarly forfeit their rights, and are thus subject to incarceration and similar measures. I also don't think you'll find anyone who believes that these same people shouldn't have the right to certain proceedings designed to ensure due process etc, before being labeled a criminal and stripped of their rights. There has to be a process to determine who the bad guys are before holding them indefinitely without trial. Simply declaring someone an enemy combatant and denying their right to habeus corpus, in my book, is wrong.
~Jonathan


Post 23

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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Ted wrote:

John & Andre, I understand if either of you simply doesn't like Bush, or thinks that he has handled this war badly. But I don't see the point of accusing him of things he hasn't done.


???? Ok you are throwing me a curve ball here I see. What I stated was indeed the truth. Everything I stated in those three examples are verifiable and the President has admitted on public record himself. So no Ted, he has done them. The memo signed by Attorny General Gonzales was leaked and is now public record which stated interrogation methods should stop short of organ failure or death. The man is still Attorney General. Does that not mean Bush has sanctioned torture or has refused to hold those accountable for allowing torture to occur? The Military Commissions Act does state the language I posted. The President and the Secretary of Defense has the power to declare anyone an enemy combatant and deny them due process. Doesn't that send a chill down your spine reading that law?

I know that Andre and I share a mutual contempt for our isl*mic enemy. I assume the same with you, John.


Yes your assumption is correct. But I don't want my country to turn into a police state like some of these countries in the Middle East like Egypt or Pakistan.

...the NSA wiretaps have been subject to judicial review and have been authorized by congress


No they haven't! Congress authorized a FISA court to allow for secret wiretaps as a warrant but they did not authorize the NSA to do so without a FISA warrant which is exactly what the NSA has done. And even if congress authorized warrantless wiretaps they wouldn't have the authority to do so anyways. And judicial review does not mean a judge just looks over some papers and says yup, I've reviewed them! Judicial review means the Judicial branch has the power to stop the executive branch from violating constitutional law. It means they can repeal a law passed by the legislature deemed unconstitutional. And the Supreme Court did rule that the detainees in Guatanamo Bay have been held in violation of the Constitution. So what more proof do you want?

please go out and vote Democrat if you must.


Hey now, I didn't say I'd do that!

Post 24

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 8:39pmSanction this postReply
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Back under Pinochet there were mothers marching to ask where their poor Marxist sons who had been "disappeared" had gone. The names of these people was and is a matter of record. Please just name to me one such American citizen and I will accept your claims.


Ok so let me get this straight. It's perfectly OK for the President to have the power to make people disappear because he hasn't used that power now given to him yet?

Post 25

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 2:22amSanction this postReply
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To further this along, anyone wishes to bet that, in the event the Republicans lose the election, there won't be declared before the end of his term an 'emergency' requiring presidental authority of declaring martial law? - or will there actually be a 'changing of the guards' to an opposite pogram?  [just to play Devil's Advocate here]
(Edited by robert malcom on 10/26, 2:24am)


Post 26

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 9:49amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan Fauth & John Armaos - Read the article on CONTEXT that Joe posted.  That is the difference between enemy combatants/non-citizens and domestic criminals.  One action is done on a small scale in order to rob or kill or gain some individual benefit to the criminal, the other (say, a Terrorist attach) is an attack upon the entire Nation, its people, infrastructure, and morale.  See 9/11 for what can happen.  No domestic criminals ever did anything close to that.  First of all, they don't want to die.  Second, it gains them nothing.  Again, the CONTEXT matters a great deal here! 

Post 27

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
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Yes your assumption is correct. But I don't want my country to turn into a police state like some of these countries in the Middle East like Egypt or Pakistan.
The basic principle of a free society is that a person is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This means that there must be objective procedures in place to determine guilt or innocence. It also means that it is better to let a few guilty people go free than to imprison innocent people. It's a basic philosophical principle.

The belief that people are innocent until proven guilty is the base of a free society. The belief that people are guilty until proven innocent is the base of a dictatorship.

For some months, I have accused the war hawks of arguing for a dictatorship. They prove me right again and again.


Post 28

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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Kurt, read my post again. How do we determine who is an enemy combatant? Just by declaring them so?

Post 29

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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It also means that it is better to let a few guilty people go free than to imprison innocent people.
I agree with this.


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Post 30

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
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Not Infinite Justice & Absolute Freedom, but Sufficient Justice & Real Freedom.

Jonathan is correct to see that I do indeed make the distinction between natural rights which all men have, whether they are born under a dictatorship or in a cave, and political rights, which they must act to protect by establishing and maintaining for themselves a proper political state. Once done, the individual gives up his own unfettered natural right of individual self-defense (vigilantism, vendetta, shoot on sight) and submits (with proper caveats and limits) to the political protections of the army and police, the courts, and so on.

All political states, being finite entities with finite natures and powers, have finite jurisdictions, and the rights they protect are not unlimited in spatial or temporal scope. A state is a finite entity which can and should only be expected to make certain finite guarantees, rather than trying to establish eternal and universal justice. All laws have their jurisdictions in space - once you are in Singapore, don't expect not to get caned for vandalism. All laws have their temporal limits. Don't cry rape 20 years after the fact and expect protection.

If two nations have a treaty establishing the treatment of each other's citizens, that treaty gives the citizens of those countries further guarantees. But contrariwise, the State Department posts travel advisories specifically because it knows that it cannot guarantee the safety of every American everywhere at every time, such as in Lebanon during the Hezbollah War. Of course, Americans who foolishly cavorted there with or among our enemies did scream bloody murder, and our government, lest the Democrats join in a-wailing, foolishly rescued them, making them wait hours - hours mind you! - for poor accommodation in un-air-conditioned cargo holds - the horrors, the horrors! - to get passage out of that land.

I am neither an anarchist nor an absolutist. Both schools make the fallacious argument that because they can come up with an argument - "But Rand said you shouldn't be cutting my throat, Mr. Akbar, gurgle, gurgle" - that they have instantiated something. But political rights can only be established within finite limitations, only at some real cost, and not by mere assertion, whim, or fantasy. Words and arguments alone instantiate nothing. Only effort, war, vigilance and - yes - compromise within a political realm instantiate actual justice and freedom. Not infinite justice and absolute freedom, but sufficient contextual justice and real political freedom.

During war, using powers that have been established by Congress, it is proper for our government to take such actions as monitoring, through overseas conduits, communications with suspected terrorists and enemies, even if the people calling them happen to be calling from the United States. This information could not be used properly in domestic civil or criminal proceedings against citizens for non-war related matters. Even when it is used, it is still subject both to Judicial and Congressional review and oversight, as it should be. The Congress is not ignorant of the NSA program, it established the NSA. The Federal Courts, even when they have been denied jurisdiction under the Constitution and by the Congress, over the disposition of the Guantanamo detainees, have had no problem lording it over the administration, a true abuse of the Court's power which no one in the media cares to bring to our attention, and about which, like the fact that we have indeed found WMD’s in Iraq, the Administration has curiously chosen to remain silent, rather than to protest vigorously.

Crying wolf over unsubstantiated allegations of abuse and potential abuse makes it all the more difficult to be taken seriously when one has real claims with actual hard facts backing them up to present. (Abu Ghraib is not a counterexample to my arguments either, but a proof of them, since when real concrete abuses are found they are addressed.) The Pinochet example was not meant to advocate a police state within the U.S. It was meant to show that in that case, there were real concrete victims with real names, while in the current argument, no one has named any actual person whose domestic civil rights have been abrogated. We have just heard abstract floating accusations. If someone is a rights violator, then there must be some specific individual whose rights have been violated. One cannot (except, of course, for RICO & Antitrust) simply be called a "criminal" without any specific crime being adduced. But in the current situation we have all sorts of accusations being made about "crimes we don't even yet know to have occurred."

All I want is a few specific unredressed civil rights violations, such as the Waco & Ruby Ridge raids, the kidnapping of Elian Gonzales by the ATF, the illegal possession by the Clintons of the FBI dossiers of over 700 Republicans, the wiretapping and surveillance of MLK by the Kennedys & J. Edgar Hoover, or any other such concrete cases. Otherwise, allegations that a cabal of Neo-Cons is planning a putsch might make an interesting short story for the New Yorker, but are not claims which rise beyond the arbitrary and thus unanswerable.

Ted Keer, 26 October, 2006, NYC


(Edited by Ted Keer
on 10/26, 7:53pm)

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 10/26, 10:07pm)


Post 31

Friday, October 27, 2006 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan - Ted explained it well, but essentially the fact remains that it is entirely reasonable to do the following:

My store was broken into and a guard was murdered, and the police arrested a man whom the evidence indicates is guilty.  This was in Chicago.  Normal justice ensues.

I am in Afghanistan and getting shot at by an AK-47.  The fire is coming from a school, and we end up capturing the enemy after taking some casualties.  Enemy Combatant justice ensues.

In fact, by the Geneva convention, if he is not wearing a uniform, I could shoot him dead on the spot.


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Post 32

Friday, October 27, 2006 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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Once done, the individual gives up his own unfettered natural right of individual self-defense (vigilantism, vendetta, shoot on sight) and submits (with proper caveats and limits) to the political protections of the army and police, the courts, and so on.
So, if a criminal breaks into my house, I can't do anything in self-defense?
All political states, being finite entities with finite natures and powers, have finite jurisdictions, and the rights they protect are not unlimited in spatial or temporal scope. A state is a finite entity which can and should only be expected to make certain finite guarantees, rather than trying to establish eternal and universal justice.
So, then you are against military adventures to protect corporations abroad? That is what this war is all about.
All laws have their jurisdictions in space - once you are in Singapore, don't expect not to get caned for vandalism.
Exxon shouldn't expect protection if their assets are seized in the Middle East either.
During war, using powers that have been established by Congress, it is proper for our government to take such actions as monitoring, through overseas conduits, communications with suspected terrorists and enemies, even if the people calling them happen to be calling from the United States.
There has been no Congressional declaration of war. War itself requires a defined enemy. A war against Rogue State is winnable and fightable. A war against an abstraction--poverty, terrorism, drug abuse--is just plain silly.
Crying wolf over unsubstantiated allegations of abuse and potential abuse makes it all the more difficult to be taken seriously when one has real claims with actual hard facts backing them up to present.
All I have are personal testimonies from lots of people. What do they have to gain by making up such stories?
Abu Ghraib is not a counterexample to my arguments either, but a proof of them, since when real concrete abuses are found they are addressed.
This was only because this one got a whole lot of attention. People around the world see this stuff, too.
The Pinochet example was not meant to advocate a police state within the U.S.
But that is what you advocate. A person who eats potato chips and drinks beer every day can say that he doesn't advocate obesity. But his actions indicate otherwise.
It was meant to show that in that case, there were real concrete victims with real names, while in the current argument, no one has named any actual person whose domestic civil rights have been abrogated.
A quick look at Wikipedia finds actual names. Here are some of the most famous:

Ruhal Ahmed (British citizen)
Asif Iqbal (British)
Shafiq Rasul (British)
David Hicks (Australian)

The article below also indicates that there is no minimum age for being in Guantanamo:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2970279.stm

I don't really expect the war hawks to care about facts. I am posting this for the people who do.


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Post 33

Friday, October 27, 2006 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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Chris,

You know my policy on candy striping, and where that road has lead us before. I have been making brief respectful comments without directly addressing you personally, and am happy to communicate on that basis. But I will respond here only to your first and last points, and if you want a serious response from me in the future, then write a three paragraph essay telling us what your principles are, rather than just taking pot-shots at concrete points of mine.

Chris said:"So, if a criminal breaks into my house, I can't do anything in self-defense?"

This is well settled Objectivist doctrine, I don't think that any comment from me is even necessary. But I would say that while in a state of nature you can kill whomever you like (just watch out for his friends & family) in a political state, like the U.S., if you do kill someone on your property, the burden is upon you (however small a burden, if its a notorious armed madman) to show that you did act in self defense. In other words, of course you can always act, just don't expect not to have to justify your actions to the court afterwards.

As for the four names of residents/citizens of Commonwealth nations that you mentioned, their rights, if any, are determined by both the circumstances of their capture or detention, and by our treaties with their home countries. Yet none of their cases (so far as I understand) has anything to do with the original issue of the civil rights of Americans as I addressed in post 14, in the challenges made to my statement in John & Jonathan's posts 22-24, and in my answer to those challenges in post 30. If you are putting them forward as examples of people whose civil rights have been violated by the current administration, then actually post the evidence here, rather than referring us to another site. Your reputation is not that of Pierre de Fermat, that you can say you have a proof, but not enough room here to present it.

The one point you did make that I have no disagreement with is the fact that there has been no formal declaration of war by the congress, which morally compromises all our government's actions. Unfortunately, given the "war powers act" precedent, it seems that we will never again have an actual declared war. That's a matter for a different post.

Ted Keer,

Post 34

Friday, October 27, 2006 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
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Re Kurt's post #31:
In fact, by the Geneva convention, if he is not wearing a uniform, I could shoot him dead on the spot.
"It's in the Geneva Convention" is not an argument, more like an appeal to authority. Also, how exactly does the uniform factor in? The rest of your post was good though, but I draw a distinction between actions taken on the battlefield whilst bullets are flying, and the actions that we were speaking of. If your life is threatened, whether by an armed thug in Chicago, or an armed militant in Afghanistan, then you have every right to defend yourself, even going so far as to use deadly force. However, if the police arrive and apprehend the subject in the first instance, due process must ensue, correct? In the second example, what happens if the skirmish ends, and the enemy is captured? [continued below]

Ted, I didn't have any links to post, but I also wasn't planning on writing three paragraphs, so perhaps this is in vain ;-)!
I agree with John's post 24. If the President signed into law a measure which stripped us of our rights to free speech, I don't believe we have to wait until someone's rights are actually violated to protest such a measure. That being said, I know of no concrete instances of rights violations, American citizens or otherwise.

But I would say that while in a state of nature you can kill whomever you like (just watch out for his friends & family) in a political state, like the U.S., if you do kill someone on your property, the burden is upon you (however small a burden, if its a notorious armed madman) to show that you did act in self defense. In other words, of course you can always act, just don't expect not to have to justify your actions to the court afterwards. 
 Well said. The burden (however small a burden) should be on the goverment to prove that they are holding persons who have actually committed crimes.

~Jonathan


Post 35

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 6:00amSanction this postReply
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I also forgot about Maher Arar. He's a Canadian who had the misfortunate of having a layover at JFK. Here's his speech on the subject:

http://www.counterpunch.org/arar10272006.html


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Post 36

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 8:47pmSanction this postReply
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A Matter of our own Nation's Highest Law

Responding to Eichert's assertion that: "In fact, by the Geneva convention, if he is not wearing a uniform, I could shoot him dead on the spot." Jonathan Fauth responds "It's in the Geneva Convention" is not an argument, more like an appeal to authority.

Fauth is assuming (he is begging the question) that the supposed illegal combatant already has some sort of "natural right" [to wage war out of uniform?] not to be shot on sight that Eichert's hypothetical U.S. warrior must respect. Eichert (I assume) is not appealing to the Geneva conventions as an authoritative justification for executing irregulars without trial, he is claiming (I assume) that the Geneva Conventions are no hindrance of our executing them out of hand. It is Fauth, not Eichert, who thinks that their is some implied right that the Genevea convention contravenes. Again, outside of the context of political protections, whether civil or treaty protections, there is no right of a foreign person that our nation is unqualifiedly obliged to recognize.

It might be blatantly absurd and self-defeating for us simply to lash out and exterminate every foreigner, willy-nilly, who has no legal relation to our polity. The constitution forbids States and private citizens from negotiating treaties with foreign sovereignties for the same reason that our nation deals (should deal) with foreign warriors not as individual criminals, but as agents of a foreign power.

Nations deal with nations. Only when we choose to admit foreign asylum seekers, at our discretion, and as regulated by law, do we treat with foreigners as individuals and not as agents, wards, or subjects of the state from which they come. A nation is good for its citizens in so far as the civil rights it guarantees them correspond to the natural rights that their natures endow upon them. But natural rights are the rights of nature - of the nasty, brutish, and (hopefully) short state in which man finds himself when he has no established polity to defend him. Natural rights are not established by our wishes, or by anybody's arguments. They are established by the establishment of a proper government.

On the field of war, all is fair. Some of the more civilized nations of this world signed on to the Geneva Conventions as an indecent compromise that saves face - a type of "honor" among thieves. In so far as a Senate has ratified and a President has signed a treaty, such as the Geneva Conventions, then that treaty is the law of this land, and we must obey it, not out of respect for our treaty partners or the purported rights of their citizens, but as a matter of our own nation's highest law.

Ted Keer, 30 October, 2006, NYC
(Edited by Ted Keer
on 10/31, 12:06pm)


Post 37

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 6:12amSanction this postReply
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Ted's got it right

Post 38

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 8:01amSanction this postReply
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On the field of war, all is fair.
And you have simply declared war all by yourself. This is a blank check.

Of course, war has not been declared in the USA. The Constitution says that only Congress can declare war. But if an incoherent, recovering druggie can "find Jesus" become President, then anything is truly possible.
Fauth is assuming (he is begging the question) that the supposed illegal combatant already has some sort of "natural right" [to wage war out of uniform?] not to be shot on sight that Eichert's hypothetical U.S. warrior must respect.
Actually a person is not an illegal combatant until they have been convicted in a court of law. "Illegal combatant" is in fact an anti-concept. It is a jury which decides whether or not someone has broken the law.
It might be blatantly absurd and self-defeating for us simply to lash out and exterminate every foreigner, willy-nilly, who has no legal relation to our polity.
Well, duh!
They are established by the establishment of a proper government.
We need to get one of those. We certainly don't have it now.
In so far as a Senate has ratified and a President has signed a treaty, such as the Geneva Conventions, then that treaty is the law of this land, and we must obey it, not out of respect for our treaty partners or the purported rights of their citizens, but as a matter of our own nation's highest law.
Unfortunately, the Congress, the President, and the courts have no regard for the highest law. It's called the Constitution. Therefore, it is truly a state of anarchy. They are in fact anarchists.

(Edited by Chris Baker on 10/31, 8:09am)


Post 39

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 9:13amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Chris, as usual, for injecting the sole note of sanity in this discussion. The other two folks are
strictly from outer space. But what else is new ?


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