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Friday, May 26, 2006 - 10:28amSanction this postReply
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--Learning Curve and Humility--

Luke, Objectivists have a tendency toward grandiose plans which involve going from being frozen in concrete and never having raced before to trying to run the four-minute mile from nearly a standing start.

Regarding writing a comprehensive combined theory and practice book of this kind, that requires an enormous amount of ability if you want people to actually read it and have their lives changed. Rand herself went from writing in notebooks and about Hollywood movies to short stories and plays to a less ambitious novel with a narrow theme and a novella to ultimately a vast, ambitious novel.

Yours is an ambitious project which requires the seamless integration of three things: i) a sweeping and total command of Objectivism, ii) a great deal of writing ability, iii) proven ability to persuade and reach a non-Objectivist audience.

What you or an author of such a book would need in order to make this successful is to first hone and prove his ability to succeed on a smaller canvass - being able to communicate and convince non-Oists on individual points in individual essays such as op eds or persuading them of the need for the Oist concept of self-esteem. (If there were multiple authors it would be even harder because of clashing styles, different knowledge levels, hurt feelings, and an additional effort of trying to coordinate a 'committee' of writers.) You need to become a successful and published writer first, even if only on a small scale. But it must be for non-Oists, not merely websites and blogging for the choir. (Totally different writing style; totally different use of examples).

One reason for Objectivism's lack of success over the years is grandiosity and arrogance: People who are in a far bigger hurry than Rand or any other successful writer. They don't master their craft. They rush in. They fail. They give up. They discourage other people from the possibility of success in changing the culture, explaining Objectivism in jargon-free ways, and in gaining an audience of millions. (This is as true of newsletters or magazines as it is of books.)

Same thing with starting any nationwide or international networks of clubs. Quite frankly, you need to crawl before you can try to walk. And you need to spend some time walking before you try to run like the wind.

I've seen grandiose projects like this by Oists at least a dozen times. Nothing smaller gets their juices flowing and so they are offended when you suggest starting with anything less "Roarkian". But facts are facts and without "learning your craft" and making mistakes and owning them and so one, no complex undertaking is likely to succeed, unless by luck or the falling into a coma of all one's competitors. When I point this out I simply get a terse rebuttal (best case-more likely I am simply ignored as a petulant old fogy). Then a year or two later the project quietly folds and no detailed explanation or admission of mistakes is offered. Every single time. And no awareness of the validity of my advice has occurred. And five or ten years later the next project starts. Whose gung-ho leader has not learned from (or heard of the preceeding...or my too-tame advice).

And I watch him or them repeat EVERY SINGLE mistake.


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Friday, May 26, 2006 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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Luke, I realize that in this project you have the innovation of getting people to discuss and critique chapter by chapter. That's somewhat of an improvement over many previous projects I've seen.

But the problem is that not many people on this list have the ability or interest to do this, I suspect. Or writing skill. Often I or others have posted substantive intellectual material and the discussion has quickly drifted off of focus. Or it's been greeted with silence. Moreover, the writing needs to be addressed to and critiqued by non-Oists. Oists are good at producing something which would convince them. No one else.

First tip: Don't ask Oists to critique something aimed at the general public. They will steer you in *exactly the wrong direction*.

Show it instead to high school students or co-workers or relatives and ask them if they can even -follow- it or if the highly abstract language gets a "Huh???" reaction.

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Friday, May 26, 2006 - 10:55amSanction this postReply
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Hi Luke,

I really like your idea. I'll make some contributions bit by bit, first here and then I'll join your list when I have a second.

Sunday             Why You Should Read This Book
This is the best way to start. It should be honest and attempt to grab the readers attention. I'll send you a few ideas on this.

Monday           Time and Energy -- Your Most Precious Commodities
This is important, but do you think it might be better to move it a little further ahead? Perhaps move the Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday pieces up and put after "Prepare for a Journey..."

Tuesday           Living Your Best Life Possible on Earth
Wednesday      Big Fat Liars and the Big Fat Lies They Tell
Thursday          Prepare for a Journey That Will Change Your Life

These three form the meat of the de-programming introduction. I have a few ideas I can send you on "Big Fat Liars...." I've been thinking about this topic when listening to all the political/societal problems on the radio each day. I can send you some stuff in a little while.
Friday              A Philosophy for Living on Earth
Saturday           Applying This Week's Lessons
These two provide the kick-off to the rest.

I agree with Phil in that you should get input from a non-objectivist audience. Maybe not right away, but before you get to far down the road. Objectivists will get what your saying and may not see what will hang up the everyday reader.

Ethan



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Friday, May 26, 2006 - 11:06amSanction this postReply
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"Envision using the suggested reading list of the Ayn Rand Institute -- 25 items -- as a subject of study for each chapter of such a book." One could do much better, I venture to suppose!

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Friday, May 26, 2006 - 6:06pmSanction this postReply
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Phil:

I definitely think your concerns are valid for large projects. However, I don't think that all of them necessarily apply to this project.
You need to become a successful and published writer first, even if only on a small scale.

Instead of looking at this book as one large project, why not look at it as 182 (26 weeks * 7 days) smaller projects. Luke could periodically publish some of the essays as individual works to gauge how well his writing is accepted by the intended audience.

Also, let's assume that the scenario you presented comes true and the project fizzles out before completion. Even if Luke only completes 25% of the project, he will have written 45 essays that could be utilized in some other form. The project is not a zero-sum game where the only successful outcome is the completion of the book.
Often I or others have posted substantive intellectual material and the discussion has quickly drifted off of focus. Or it's been greeted with silence.

I would love to get more involved with the intellectual conversations at RoR. At this point in my life, I have several other priorities that take precedence. However, I would have a selfish interest in seeing this project succeed. The first reason is that I would benefit greatly from reading such a book. The second reason is that I believe it has the potential to spread Objectivism into the mainstream culture. I think that, like myself, more people would be willing to commit time to this project, unlike online discussions. A concrete goal with an observable output is a great motivator.

Other thoughts:

1. Is this project the property of Luke or of RoR? If it is the property of RoR, would it be possible to use some of the essays from the RoR website in the book? I would guess that many of the topics Luke proposed have been addressed in some way on this site and could be used as base material. I would assume that RoR would still get permission from the authors to use their essays in the book.

2. Is the intended audience non-Objectivists, Objectivists or both? If as Phil suggests, these audiences both require a different approach, the decision on the intended audience will affect the rest of the project and should be fleshed out prior to starting. A good starting discussion might be what writing style will be most effective with the intended audience.



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Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 5:18amSanction this postReply
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I appreciate the comments, everyone.

The purpose of the book is to interest non-Objectivists in Objectivism.  The Yahoo! Group is categorized in the "Self-Help" area of that system rather than the "Objectivism" area for that express purpose.  I know Ayn Rand herself disliked the concept of "self-help" as a "sick joke" but I disagree.  I do not think that disagreement makes me less an Objectivist.

Plenty of worthwhile books have been written over the centuries that would qualify as "self-help" such as The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin.  People who read these sorts of books usually already accept implicitly the "benevolent universe premise" and the value of personal initiative.  Showing how one can embrace a fully secular world view that explicitly validates these premises would have a wide appeal.

The role of non-Objectivists on the list would be to ask questions that would help me to clarify and expand upon concepts they find difficult.  The role of Objectivists on the list would be to keep me straight on representing Objectivism as accurately as possible.  It is very important to note that Sunday of every week would focus on reading a specific selection from the Ayn Rand corpus as outlined in this article.  So the reader would get a heaping helping of Ayn Rand every week and then additional servings from Luke Setzer based on his own experiences with applying the ideas she advances in daily life.

Phil, I understand your concerns.  They have some merit and I will bear them in mind as I hammer at the project.  But if I let the kinds of risks you outline slow me or stop me, I would never accomplish anything worthwhile in any area of my life: I would never have become a NASA engineer; I would never have married a woman with a pretty face and a sweet disposition; I would never have reduced my body fat from 26% to 10%.  I notice you still have no formal RoR articles published on this site while I have many.  Sure, some have sunk, but others have soared.  Coincidence?  As the saying goes, "You can scratch with the chickens or soar with the eagles."  If I try to fly, I might fail, but I would rather try to be an eagle and fail than remain a nattering, scratching, pecking, clucking chicken my whole life and succeed.  I am not saying you are a chicken, but that is my guiding attitude and it has served me well this long in life.  Try it for size some time.  You might like how it fits.

Ethan, I like your ideas and plan to implement them.

Tibor, the ARI suggested reading list fits well with the overall thrust of the book and helps to quench potential criticisms from those circles.

Ryan, I appreciate any help you can offer.  I will retain copyright ownership of the book but intend to direct any revenues toward the club network after covering my publishing expenses.  It will all be original material by me though I may take brief passages from other authors under "fair use" laws to illustrate key points.

If anyone knows ways to bring this project to the attention of prospective readers so they join the list, please share or just spread the word yourself.


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Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
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> But if I let the kinds of risks you outline slow me or stop me, I would never accomplish anything worthwhile in any area of my life: I would never have become a NASA engineer; I would never have married a woman with a pretty face and a sweet disposition; I would never have reduced my body fat from 26% to 10%.

Luke, I agree that one should not be intimidated by a mountain in front of one. But that doesn't mean one just starts straight up as opposed to working out on smaller hills, building base camps, etc. And it's the particularly difficult nature of writing which breaks through and reaches totally new audiences that makes it more of a "multi-step" process than several of the things you name.

Even in the case of becoming an engineer, there are a lot of preliminary steps starting with H.S. algebra for example. My point is that in the history of Oist grand and sweeping projects, I have never seen one where people don't make the mistakes of i) rushing it, ii) being unprepared, iii) knowing the audience, iv) skipping steps.

[Aside: You're an engineer, not an experienced writer. Toastmasters is a great start but it's not writing in particular. Getting there requires working on a *lot* of training exercises from op eds to efforts at writing exercises which don't read like flowcharts to letters to the editor to poetry to exercises in biography, in description like Rand used to do, to many of the things she covers in her NFW book (have you read it?) and so on....You have many of the writing problems I had when I was a math and computer science person. I wrote (and still sometimes write) in too complicated or too technical or too abstract or convoluted a fashion....}

> I notice you still have no formal RoR articles published on this site while I have many.

My goal is not to write for Objectivists but for an audience thousands of times larger. Am I there yet? No. In a major way writing for Oists is -destructive- of that larger goal: you get used to jargon, a peculiarly abstract writing style, assumptions peculiar to that audience. So when you try to "breakout" you express yourself in a style that makes it seem like you are from Mars. (I'm using "you" in the plural and general sense, not applied to Luke in particular.)

I can't think of a single Objectivist writer other than Rand who does not make that mistake to a lesser or greater degree. (Maybe the two Brandens, who have had some public audience success, but I haven't read enough of the work of both to be sure.)

This is a TREMENDOUSLY serious and neglected issue.

It's brushed aside by Oists who keep on stubbornly banging their heads against the same old walls, unintelligently in the same old ways with only minor wrinkles. As opposed to a sea-change.

(If the wheel keeps squeaking, it probably needs more than a fresh coat of paint.)


(Edited by Philip Coates
on 5/27, 11:58am)


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Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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> I might fail, but I would rather try to be an eagle [Luke]

I agree. But even an eagle needs to master his training wings.

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Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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Agree, Phill - is why haven't yet published my manuscript on ethics and aesthetics, as it needs further rewriting to conform it to a wider audience, which really is whom I seek to address....

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Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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This is a great idea. (Many) people want to live a better life, and I should think that Objectivism could provide a better grounding for a self-help book.

Keep in mind that a self-help book is not a collection of philosophy essays. Does a person who is looking to improve their personal life need to learn that Kant was bad? Maybe... But certainly not right away. Does a person who is looking to improve their personal life need to learn how government interference in the economy destroys value? Probably... but not right away.

The trick will be to stay on-mission, and show how clear thinking and moral behavior will improve one's condition.





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Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 7:21pmSanction this postReply
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Jeffrey has a valid point.

The title of the book implies that it will be about applying Objectivism to one's life yet the Table of Contents is for a home study course in Objectivism.

My suggestion is to drop the politics and economics and current events. Focus on how to use Objectivism to lead a full and fullfilling life with just enough theory to justify the recommendations. Illustrate the ideas with stories and anecdotes.

Use lots of quotes from sources outside the Objectivist corpus so the reader can integrate the new ideas with some of his current thinking. This can be tricky. You want to maintain a sense of radicalism without getting rejected out of hand.

The home study course can come later.

Post 11

Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 5:36amSanction this postReply
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With all due respect to Jeffrey and Rick, I cannot talk sensibly about living a flourishing life without addressing the need for freedom of person and property.  Anyone who has ambitious goals and pursues them virtuously will soon hit the wall of government regulations and social chastisement.  Understanding their true nature and dealing with them effectively are crucial to long term success.

The same applies to art.  Understanding the basic artistic credo of romantic realism and its function as spiritual fuel becomes necessary to people who want to reach the zenith of human experience, eudaimonia.


Post 12

Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 6:48amSanction this postReply
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"First tip: Don't ask Oists to critique something aimed at the general public. They will steer you in *exactly the wrong direction*.

Show it instead to high school students or co-workers or relatives and ask them if they can even -follow- it or if the highly abstract language gets a "Huh???" reaction." wrote Phil.


Luke, I've given this a lot of thought and tend to agree with Phil. I suspect the feedback you get will be very usefull. Baby steps, polishing one section or module at a time will get you far.

Politics and economics are the result which people are going to have to conclude on their own. Otherwise they will have preconceived bias against, or for the book depending on their already formed political affiliations. Hook them with the personal enrichment and they will see the contradiction between the kind of life they want, and the faulty system that stands in their way.

As I told you via email several months ago, I think very highly of this project, and have every confidence that you have what it takes to see it through till the end. Well done. You have struck me as a man who is consistent in his vision. I applaud you for that.

John

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 8:53amSanction this postReply
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Yes, Luke, I understand the problem. It's one I struggle with constantly. Objectivism is an integrated philosophy. It's impossible to fully understand any one part without also understanding several other parts.

Therein lies the challenge. Particularly with the short attention spans common today.

If you want to bring new people aboard the John Galt Line, you need to lead them step by small step. Overwhelm them with the whole and they'll quickly return to their MTV.

Luke, you're an engineer. Most people are not. More people are visual thinkers than are verbal thinkers. That's one reason that Rand's fiction outsells her non-fiction. It should be possible to present the non-fiction visually without writing more fiction. And that visual presentation needs to be in easily digestible, bite-sized pieces.

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Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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#11(Luke):Anyone who has ambitious goals and pursues them virtuously will soon hit the wall of government regulations and social chastisement. Understanding their true nature and dealing with them effectively are crucial to long term success.


Maybe that's the trick. Rather than talk about politics or religion or art in the abstract, write about what they mean to an individual. What things should a person keep in mind when confronted with the irrationality in society? Maybe this can be in the format of "survival tips" or something like that.

The scope and tone of the book should match up with the intended audience (the mass self-help market, e.g. virtuous non-Objectivists who are looking for guidance to improve their life).


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Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 8:32pmSanction this postReply
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I appreciate all the feedback.  I look forward to interacting with you all on the Yahoo! list for this project.  Please invite your non-Objectivist friends and acquaintances to participate as I will need their input regarding clarity of concepts to newcomers.  If what I write makes no sense to them, it will likely make no sense to similar others either.

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Monday, May 29, 2006 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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I really like the idea of this in general; self-help focus, a broad outreach, 'applying lessons' - good stuff. Given that approach, however, a vital area is largely missing - interpersonal relationships. I only saw a cursory reference to these in terms of emotional payoffs and moral judgements. To reach a wide audience (especially self-help crowd?), I think you really a lot of focus on friendships and especially love and sex. These areas will be of huge interest to the population in general, and spending a lot of time on them from an Objectivist standpoint would be critical in creating something a broad audience will be interested in and relate to.


Post 17

Monday, May 29, 2006 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
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What Aaron said.

Ed
[I like folks who shoot for the moon; and merely land among stars -- only the unhealthily self-critical have a problem with that]


Post 18

Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 4:50amSanction this postReply
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I do plan to spend considerable time in those chapters on interpersonal relationships.  The earlier chapters on emotions and governing values will set the stage for the later chapters on reason and relationships.  I will need considerable inputs from the more extroverted and gregarious Objectivists when I write those chapters.  As an introvert, I naturally gravitate toward spending a great deal of time alone or in the company of my wife.  Even at work, I prefer to stay in my solitary cubicle rather than commence conversations with my colleagues.  So if anyone here can offer some gems of wisdom regarding friends, family, team players, coworkers, lovers, etc., please join the list.

I wrote "Roles and Rational Egoism" some time ago as a cursory start on that material.

Since Aaron mentioned love and sex, I have a special interest in hearing from more experienced people who have dated a great deal and had multiple lovers.  Ayn Rand offered heroes in her novels who engaged in meaningful serial monogamy without one night stands, etc. while the villains engaged in casual, meaningless, hedonistic sex.  I have noticed that some posters in this forum do not seem to look down on casual sex nearly as much as did Ayn Rand.  So nailing down the meaning and purpose of right minded sex based on actual experiences of Objectivists will prove a challenge.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 5/30, 4:55am)


Post 19

Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 11:37pmSanction this postReply
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Luke, I think it's a great idea with one small issue; that is one hell of a schedule we're set on here...every day, if I understand correctly, you write a post and we critique it...are you going to revise, based on the critiques, all while composing another post? I would suggest something a lot more reflective, such as a post every three days, or, if it's a serious subject, every week. There won't be any time for thought or discussion on the given post if you're under the gun for the next day already.



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