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Friday, January 20, 2006 - 6:34amSanction this postReply
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Nice article, Tibor.  I really liked the following line:
They believe that advancing their objectives, even those that are perfectly valid, ought to be done by using coercion against those whose cooperation they seek.
As an example of this, see the thread "Nickelodeon, Kellogg Targets of Lawsuit".

It was refreshing to read this article here, after seeing so many posts in which someone is trying to teach Objectivism to dragonfly.  You're wasting your time, folks, but it's your time.  And, at least you're not using coercion!

Thanks,
Glenn


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Friday, January 20, 2006 - 7:23amSanction this postReply
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Oh, amen, Tibor!  These same thoughts have been occupying me recently.  The theme of your article sums up why I dislike "activists" and wish we had another term for it.  In my mind, an activist is someone who tries to change something they personally don't like by using political force against someone.
 
The other night, someone called me, purporting to be "taking a survey".  After a few moments, it was apparent that they were looking for my support in their efforts to force Hollywood to produce less violent movies.  I really flew off the handle at him and told him that if he didn't like violent movies, he shouldn't go see them.

It seems to be a fundamental trait that these "activists" share, that if they disapprove of something, they seek to force a change.  Can't they just accept that in a free society, some people are going to do some things that they don't approve of? 

Forced reduction in advertising targeting children, forced clean air automobile standards, forced health care provision by employers, forced nondiscrimination, forced smoking bans in bars, on and on.  Part of the reason they get away with it is that people are reluctant to challenge force initiated against a company or an industry; they don't see it as a violation of individual rights, even though a company or an industry is nothing but a group of individuals.


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Friday, January 20, 2006 - 7:28amSanction this postReply
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Your charges against Conservatives are off-base.  You are probably describing Republicans. 

Both sides of the fence use force.  The argument against is not even made in political circles because most American's believe the Constitution grants rights.  It does not.  It limits government. 

I think Liberal's central flaw is sentimentality and a penchant for bogus science.


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Friday, January 20, 2006 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you for this thought provoking article. The Left extends a twisted kind of help to people who have been kicked around and badly mistreated, for example blacks and homosexuals, while the Right often refuses to acknowlege that the mistreatment occurred. As you explain, the Right's denial stems largely from its rebellion against the Left's coercion in support of its pet causes (coercion that the Right increasingly uses to promote its favorite causes). I particularly like your characterization of the Left as treating individuals as beasts to be beaten into submission, a characterization that is sadly all too accurate. 

Both the secular Left and the religious Right would strip individuals of moral dignity. A good example of this dehumanization by the Left is its treatment of homosexuals. Instead of just acknowleging that, for whatever reason, some men are erotically attracted to other men, and some women to women, and that this orientation is not necessarily bad, the Left  insists on defining homosexuality as necessarily and completely the product of physiology. The idea that homosexuality could be the consequence of emotional suffering and psychological confusion, and thereby influenced by past volitional choices, is declared out-of-bounds. Studies try to prove that homosexuality is exclusively an automatic physiological response, but I have the impression that this view is based more on considerations of "compassion" than of good evidence. But if this orientation actually can be shown to be, in some instances, the product of emotional suffering, then declaring this avenue of investigation verboten leaves the suffering unabated.

The religious Right is more supportive of the idea of volitional responsibility than is the Left. But its infatuation with the supernatural undermines the concept of man as thinking, choosing moral agent, to the point that people are seen as helpless pawns in a world of God's choosing. For example, point out to a religious Pro-Lifer that rights flow from the premise of volitional consciousness, and that the human brain only developes this capacity at say 8 months, and that therefore aborting a six week fetus is not baby killing. The response will be that any human life form is God's creation, never to be altered or destroyed. People are not really moral agents; they are extensions of God.


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Friday, January 20, 2006 - 6:39pmSanction this postReply
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It seems ironic that those saying teach tolerance are no more tolerant than the ones they accuse of intolerance.  
Political correctness is just another form of intolerance that originates from the left.


"The uncontested absurdities of today the the accepted slogans of tomorrow." 
  -  Ayn Rand


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Friday, January 20, 2006 - 9:12pmSanction this postReply
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Laurie,
forced clean air automobile standards
I like fresh air... when a stinky wreck of an automobile blasts out a plume of smoke into my intake and fills my cabin with half-burned oily air... then I've got to breath that into my lungs, and I really don't like that.

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Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 1:58amSanction this postReply
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Spot on, Tibor. I found these gems especially illuminative ...

==============
In short, modern liberals are congenital bullies. Despite their attempt to smear the religious Right and other conservatives with the charge that they are moralizers and intolerant, modern liberals are the most intolerant of them all. ...

They have no compunction about imposing their values, family or otherwise, on everyone around them-just watch their eager support of such laws as the Americans for Disability Act ...

Modern liberals don't get it-it is a sign of colossal lack of civility to deal with those with whom one disagrees as if  they were beasts, mindless brutes to be caged and tamed by force. ...

And that is worse than most of what those adversaries wrongfully champion.
==============

It's as if modern liberals are infantile narcissists, guaging all others as enemies of them -- because they, themselves, are enemies of all others. They would steal the clothes off your back, if it suited them. Our own Robert Malcolm has written about Trading vs. the Taking Syndrome, and these libero-communists are Takers through & through.

Looking into their own psyche, they think that we are all living in a dog-eat-dog reality (because they are) and that you have to grab everything with power -- that we can't ever be rational, and have mutually-advantageous interactions. You had eloquently stated this aspect of their thinking, with the phrase that sums their view of humankind: "beasts, mindless brutes to be caged and tamed by force." It's a wonder how they came to such a generalization of man, themselves (because they are "human") being mere mindless brutes! How contradictory!

Thank you, Tibor.

Ed



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Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,

For example, point out to a religious Pro-Lifer that rights flow from the premise of volitional consciousness, and that the human brain only developes this capacity at say 8 months, and that therefore aborting a six week fetus is not baby killing.
Don't care what your thoughts on abortion are, and ask that you not jump to any conclusions about mine, but you must be more scrupulous about fact.  A foetus at 7-8 weeks has all the brain cells the adult will have and it is at this point that brain waves are observed.

Don't know about volitional consciousness.  Don't suppose there is anyway to measure it in foetuses.  But I do know that many adults never master it.


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Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, let me clarify my point.

The pivotal issue concerning whether or not abortion is murder is: when does the fetus acquire rights? Only human beings have rights, in contrast to animals or plants, because only humans possess volitional consciousness---the capacity to initiate and actively direct thought. People require objective moral values to live, because they must live by making appropriate choices. Moral values are principles of proper human choice. Ethics is the application of moral principles to the field of interpersonal relationships, and individual rights are ethical principles. So individuals have rights by virtue of the fact that they require moral/ethical principles to live; they need moral/ethical principles because they are beings who must exercise volitional consciousness to live.

A fetus gradually grows and developes, acquiring at some point the essential prerequisite of being human: the capacity of volition. Prior to this stage of development, the fetus is not minimally human; it is pre-human. Once it acquires this volitional capacity, it acquires moral standing and rights.

When does the fetus acquire the capacity of volitional consciousness? I'm no expert, but Tibor Machan wrote elsewhere that nature endows this capacity with the formation of the cerebral cortex, at--as I recall--about 7 or 8 months. However, the timing isn't important for the purposes of this discussion. What is important is that before it developes a cerebral cortex, the fetus isn't human and so aborting this fetus is not murder. However, at the point at which it developes a cerberal cortex, the fetus becomes minimally human and acquires minimal rights that must be respected.


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Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 2:47pmSanction this postReply
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There are no conflicts of rights, else they could not be rights.   There are conflicts of interests, but interests are not rights.  As Rand pointed out [see Ayn Rand Answers], much to the consterntion of many, a human organism becomes an individual at birth.  "The fact of birth is an absolute - that is, up to that moment, the child is not an independent, living organism.  It is a part of the body of its mother.  But at birth, a child is an individual, and has the rights inherent in the nature of a human individual.  Until the moment of birth,the child is physically the property of the mother." [emphasis mine]   She made it very clear there was a crucial distinction between a potential and an actual, with the woman being an actual and the fetus a potential, and that rights of the woman as such are not diminished, because of the nature of rights being not in conflict, else they not be real rights.  Biologically, that fits, as consciousness - the activation of the conscious mind - takes place when the breathing begins upon birthing, and the fetus becomes on its own as an individual, and it is the mind, the consciousness, which make the person, the human being.



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Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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I started a new General Forum thread entitled, Start of a life.

I argue that neither consciousness nor wiring sufficient for consciousness is sufficient as a marker for the start of a life, but that viability as a separate biological entity is required, (conscious or not.)


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Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 11:05pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, viability will not do because it changes with technology. Only something that's a faculty or innate capacity or attribute will make a stable difference. The cerebral cortex develops around the 24th week of pregnancy. It is the seat of the mind (albeit at that point a very minimal one at that). It is what distinguished a human being from what can become one. The analogy is caterpillar and butterfly--the former is potentially the latter, just as the fetus is of the child. (For more on this, see Chapter 17, "Is Abortion Murder?" in my The Passion for Liberty [2003].)

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Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 11:13pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the comments, Tibor.

By viability I do not mean with technology, but “primitive” viability, meaning: If you took it out and slapped it, would it breath and live, or not? I agree with you that a “moving target” viability, varying with our technological opportunities, is untenable.

(It may be moot insofar as your threshold and mine occur at about the same time anyway.)

Jon


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Monday, January 23, 2006 - 12:35pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,

because they are beings who must exercise volitional consciousness to live.

 
On a deserted isle, yes. All manner of idiots survive within society without volitional thought. Context.

We agree on abortion. We disagree about how early the foetus can be called human. Birth is a convenient convention, but it may be incorrect. Rand herself says, "A piece of protoplasm has no rights-and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months."

Most people are not aware that the brain (what Dr. Machan is calling the cerebral cortex) continues to develop at the high rates typical of the foetus for a year or so after birth, until the basic physical layout and structures are completed.

By this measure it should be permissible to kill children up to the age of one.


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Monday, January 23, 2006 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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“By this measure it should be permissible to kill children up to the age of one.”

And this is my reluctance to using consciousness, or structures related to such. As science advances, this will remain a moving target. Viability, (unassisted by any technology, I can’t think of a good term for it,) within a range, will not move.

And it could go in the other direction, too. Consciousness, depending on how defined, could some day be found to emerge at one month. This will create the absurdity of saying a separate life has begun many, many months before it is capable of sustaining its own biological functions.

Jon



(Edited by Jon Letendre
on 1/23, 1:03pm)


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Monday, January 23, 2006 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
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Most people are not aware that the brain (what Dr. Machan is calling the cerebral cortex) continues to develop at the high rates typical of the foetus for a year or so after birth, until the basic physical layout and structures are completed
.


That is because, in par with other animals, humans are born premature - largely due to the necessity of getting the still developing brain out from within the female before the head becomes simply too large to pass thru.


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Monday, January 23, 2006 - 4:41pmSanction this postReply
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But Jon,

The same thing can be said for your measurement.  A new born can not survive without a lot of help.


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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 8:13amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

The same cannot be said. And newborns certainly do survive without any help. Developed fetuses pop out, breathe and live. Undeveloped ones pop out and instantly perish.

You had to know I don’t mean what you’ve suggested! Here, let me do it to you:

No man EVER reaches the threshold you have suggested. Because we rely utterly on the sun to drive photosynthesis without which there would be no organic material to eat, and on atmospheric oxygen without which we would all die within minutes, etc… Therefore, no one’s life has started yet. Until we get over these crutches that we rely upon for our existence, we are not individuals with the right to life. That’s fun. We’ll never get anywhere this way, but it sure is fun.

If there’s to be any chance at discussion, let’s at least TRY to understand each other instead of looking for absurd ‘gotcha’ interpretations.

Jon


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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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As with most anything else, there is a contimum - a Bell curve if you wish - regarding viability of a newborn.  In the usual course of events, certain hormonal emissions signal the ejection, whether 'at term' or by nature's rejection, which takes place all along the spectrum of the term.  As such, any time an 'artificial' ejection is done, as per before the normal time, it can well be considered as non-viable, subject to the variation of the contimum and/or aided by technology.  As such, then, at no time would there be considered any violation of rights, since rights pertain only to the actual - the woman - and not the potential, and as such the decision of the woman.

This is aside whatever emotionalism is induced to the viewing.

(Edited by robert malcom on 1/24, 9:46am)


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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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The development of the minimal capacity for reason within the fetus marks the starting point of a distinct human life, because that capacity primarily distinguishes human life from non-human and pre-human life.

Rand's position, as described by Robert Malcom (which was interesting to read because I have never thought of that argument), implies that the lack of physical seperation of fetus and mother obliterates the distinction between two lives, one living within the other. That is, until birth, the fetus really isn't a distinct life. But why isn't the fetus a distinct life? Medical science clearly proves that it is a seperate biological entity whose viability substantially depends on its own biological processes. But as soon as we concede that prenatal life features one life within another, the question arises: is the fetus a human life with moral standing that is unique to human beings? The answer has to be: yes, as soon as the fetus acquires the minimal capacity for reason that makes it minimally human. There is no conflict in rights between the mother and her fetus. Before the development of the minimal capacity for volition, abortion is not murder. Therefore, if the mother wants to abort, she has the responsibility to do so before it's too late, before the abortion becomes murder.(Similarly, if I sign a contract that requires that I make a payment prior to a certain date, I must take care to make the payment on time to uphold my rights under the contract.)

Jon's argument that human life begins with viability fails, I think, because the nature of human life is such that viability developes along a continuum. A fetus is prematurely ejected by nature, breathing and heart beating. But its ability to survive depends on human intervention. In some cases, the fetus might survive for seconds; in others for hours without intervention. In some cases, the intervention might consist of making sure the fetus gets nutrition from its mother. In other cases, intervention might involve technological feeding. Two years later, the baby still depends on adult care for its survival; and for several years following, the child needs adult care to survive and become optimally human. My point is that viability is not a distinct event that marks the beginning of human life.

Robert Davison points out that the capacity for reasoning developes in nature for a long time following birth. And even after a child developes the ability to form concepts, and then gradually deal in complexity, years of experience are necessary for the child to become a mature adult. Prior to adulthood, at all stages of human life, from say the 24th week through 15 to 18 years, the pre-adult gradually acquires more rights, commensurate with its capacity to think and live. The 24 week old fetus acquires the barest moral standing: the right to be spared intentional or negligent death. The baby acquires more rights, such as the right to explore and learn; the adolescent more rights still, and so forth.


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