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Post 20

Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 12:23amSanction this postReply
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Robert Winefield said:

"Not every follower of Islam is a potential-suicide-bomber"
 
Does that not depend on what Islam implants in the mind of the muslim? Islam obviously and evidently produces suicide bombers. How pious does one have to become before the seeds are planted? I think your statement is true, but it leaves little comfort. What about this statement:  Not every muslim is a supporter of suicide bombers? How deep into Islam does one have to go before, while not actually carrying out the deed oneself, one sanctions suicide-bombing, either explicitly, or implicitly through silence? There certainly seems to be a very large number who are silent. There certainly seems to be many terrorist incidents where others go "Oh gosh, we had no idea. He was such a peaceful loving happy man."

I think your statement is true, but I think the actual ratio of those who support it to those who don't would leave you little comfort.


Post 21

Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 2:30amSanction this postReply
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I know that a few people living in Middle East are not extremists but the victims of Islam. I think these people need to be rescued. So I think we should support these people to purchase the land they live in and have their land joined together. And then support them to establish a sovereign state of their own on that land, in which they can live in a secular society, have dem=ocr=acy, have the right to wear shorts and skirts, do not fear the religious Gestapo covering them up with hijab. If all the Muslim who longing for freedom rather than religion settled in this land, the rest of the Muslim world are only fit for segregation. It only deserves the treatment the way animals get --- do whatever you want to do in your nature reserve, but do not intrude into our human world .


Post 22

Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 6:43amSanction this postReply
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Hi Richard Wiig.

You know, what produces a suicide bomber is an interesting idea. The Japanese used to do this with airplanes in WWII.

I don't think they do that anymore. It would be interesting to investigate what made them do that and why they don't do it anymore.

The results of such thinking might be able to be applied to Islamic suicide bombers.

Michael


Post 23

Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
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Ed Hudgins has penned a fine piece that deals with the motives of Islamist suicide bombers in the July issue of The New Individualist.


Post 24

Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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Rick Giles wrote:

***
options regarding non-believers: convert, conquer, kill.

Those aren't "Islamic options", those are the only options for any philosophy of life and surely your very own!
***

Whatever happened to letting people be? So, if a person has a different philosophy of life than mine, I have to either: convince them mine is the right way; rule them because their philosophy is obviously inferior to my own; or kill them because I can not suffer them to live with their inferior mode of thinking. I'm sorry, but that's not what MY philosophy of life dictates.

Kevin

Post 25

Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 9:15amSanction this postReply
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Kevin, you just wrote:
Whatever happened to letting people be?
Amen.

The only rub seems to be that those people who should be let be are sitting on top of an awful lot of oil, so they are not being left alone. And we (the West) are giving them a wealth that they most likely would not have produced on their own. They buy guns - lots of guns and explosives - a great many of which are produced in the West with that wealth.

Michael


Post 26

Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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I think it is clear that there must be a multi-pronged strategy to deal with the issue we have at hand.  However, I don't agree it should be considered a "war" or "world war III or IV" or what have you.  The reason is that it is at a different stage than wars are fought, it is not coming as action from states, but from individual actors, albeit sometimes with state support of some kind.  This is a conflict that will need the sword on occasion as well as a willingness to let connectivity win the day.  Let me give some examples:
Iran - Recognize that Iran's new "president" is using his speeches on "death to Israel" for political reasons.  He wants to derail any attempts to connect Iran or soften tensions, and wants to curry favor with hard liners.  Why let him set the terms of the issue and force us to do his bidding?  Are you aware that a new supreme-court like body, which has veto power over the President, has been setup with the opponent he defeated in the election running it?  That would be like Kerry being appointed to the supreme court after Bush won the election.  Bottom line is that despite the sabre rattling and yes, support of terrorism, the best way to beat Iran is to connect them up, reduce tensions, give them some responsibility and respect on the world stage, and let their own people win it for us.  It actually will work.
Iraq - No reasoning with Sadaam and no way to connect him up, had to be taken down.  Botched occupation because we are not yet thinking that we have to do occupations, but we do, and we will also need Asia and India to help in the future (not with Iraq per se but with other efforts).  Even if the Sunnis dont join in, and keep up their rebellion, and it looks like we do have a shot at getting them too, we at the worst at least have two new states that are functioning reasonable well, Kurds in North and Shiites in South.  Don't expect them to adopt a constitution we would want right off the bat, that isn't going to happen, but it will be good enough that they can progress eventually.  2 out of 3 ain't bad.
North Korea - Kim has to go, by any means necessary.  However, it won't happen unless we engage China, and worrying about issues from the cold war so you can justify buying expensive subs we don't need to fight a theoretical war in Taiwan we won't ever fight isn't the way to do it.  What is more important, holding off Taiwan's inevitable merging with China or getting rid of Kim?  Kim is, and Taiwan will do what it does anyway.  Hong Kong is still doing Ok, and eventually it won't be all that clear who is joining who anyway, because China looks more to me like Taiwan was than Taiwan looks like China was.


Post 27

Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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Kevin,-

Whatever happened to letting people be? So, if a person has a different philosophy of life than mine, I have to either: convince them mine is the right way; rule them because their philosophy is obviously inferior to my own; or kill them because I can not suffer them to live with their inferior mode of thinking. I'm sorry, but that's not what MY philosophy of life dictates. 

If Objectivism is not the ruling philosophy of our times then we are all living on borrowed time.
If you don't want reason to rule then you compromise our future to those who do not want reason to rule. A compromise of reason to unreason is a defeat of reason to unreason.
Rick always right.



Post 28

Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 7:13pmSanction this postReply
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Rick,

If you don't want reason to rule then you compromise our future to those who do not want reason to rule.
Just because I want reason to rule doesn't mean that I have the right to FORCE people to adapt to my form of reason.  Sorry, Rick, but you're not right.

Kevin


Post 29

Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 8:32pmSanction this postReply
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FORCE? Did I say that? Did I say that? Did anybody hear me say that?

Post 30

Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
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LOL....sorry Rick, the irony is too delicious...it's funny how yesterday's post is lost in today's context...

Post 31

Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 6:50amSanction this postReply
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Rick,

Joe's right, totally missed the context there.  Sorry...is that blood I taste in my mouth?  No, it's just irony ;).

Seriously, though, what I still don't appreciate about your original post is that you try and equate Islam with every other  "philosophy for life" by saying we all have the same alternatives when dealing with the "non-believer".  I still have to vehemently disagree here, especially when two of those alternatives (conquest and killing) are essentially violent.  Wasn't it Rand who wrote an entire book about a group of people who recognized the futility of all three of those options and went away to the gulch where they could be free to pursue the lives they saw fit with the philosophy they say fit?

(In fact, let me go back and say that Islam is a "philosophy for death;" how about that?  Any clearer?)

Kevin


Post 32

Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

========
Botched occupation because we are not yet thinking that we have to do occupations, but we do, and we will also need Asia and India to help in the future ...
========

I disagree that we "have to do occupations" -- which is just an indirect way of saying that we "have to perpetually transgress sovereignty." Or, an indirect way to say that the only way to peace and prosperity, is through collectivism. I've heard that one before; it's never worked. Am I missing something? What new piece of the puzzle has been added (in order to make this kind of collectivism actually work in reality)?

Ed

Post 33

Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 9:20amSanction this postReply
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Ed, if you attack and destroy the country's regime, you can leave it in anarchy or stay and fix it up so that it becomes an ally, rather than another enemy in a few years.  The short term may look attractive to destroy then leave, but all that means is we have to keep doing it over and over again.  Historic references would be Germany after WW I, and the 1st Gulf War.  Success stories include Japan, Germany (after WW II), and to a lesser extent South Korea and the Balkans.

Post 34

Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 1:44pmSanction this postReply
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Kevin,-
Joe's right, totally missed the context there.  Sorry...is that blood I taste in my mouth?  No, it's just irony ;).
No worries mate.

what I still don't appreciate about your original post is that you try and equate Islam with every other  "philosophy for life"

Well of course. Us and them, baby. It's Objectivism or the road. Reason or un-reason.

 by saying we all have the same alternatives when dealing with the "non-believer".  I still have to vehemently disagree here, especially when two of those alternatives (conquest and killing) are essentially violent. 

Not true at all, not to say that violence isn't a legitimate option in defense of reason at one time or another.
Conquest is not essentially violent. Didn't I see something on SOLO about women using their bare breasts as munitions? Plain, reasoned persuasion is my favoured form of conquest.
Objectivism must rule! Preach Objectivism always and when necessary do so with words. By this I mean- conquer un-reason by making a good example of yourself to others.

 Wasn't it Rand who wrote an entire book about a group of people who recognized the futility of all three of those options and went away to the gulch where they could be free to pursue the lives they saw fit with the philosophy they say fit?

Bunch of frikin' quitters weren't they?


Post 35

Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 3:49pmSanction this postReply
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"Wasn't it Rand who wrote an entire book about a group of people who recognized the futility of all three of those options and went away to the gulch where they could be free to pursue the lives they saw fit with the philosophy they say fit?

Bunch of frikin' quitters weren't they?"

See the recently released AYN RAND ANSWERS THE BEST OF HER Q AND A for her elaborations on this.

Post 36

Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 11:06pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt, seems we've been down this path before, hasn't it?

:-)

===========
Ed, if you attack and destroy the country's regime, you can leave it in anarchy or stay and fix it up so that it becomes an ally, rather than another enemy in a few years.  The short term may look attractive to destroy then leave, but all that means is we have to keep doing it over and over again. 
===========

Kurt, you're assuming that sporadic, but persistent, destruction of unlawful regimes (something I advocate) -- won't teach folks manners. As if some folks can't even -- in principle! -- learn and grow (with a slew of hard knocks, courtesy of the US) toward what is better.

Making this assumption, that billions of humans are unthinking irredeemables (cattle, if you will), you are naturally led to propose a Team of Americans as the World's Police. And, while it's true that we currently know better about the best interests of most Middle-Easterners (better than they do themselves) -- this fact does not rationally justify the extreme increase in statism that world-policing entails. Only altruism does.

Your attempts to equate historically-successful interventionism (ie. Japan, post WWII) with current events are, in my view, left wanting. You want to drag these folks -- while they're kicking and screaming -- into that grand ideal "connectivity." If you can do it with your own resources, fine. My problem with this is that you can't -- you need my resources, too. You need to tax me for things I don't believe in -- and that is a horrendous violation.

I've already outlined how the free-market can "deal" with unlawful regimes (while making a profit at it!). You'll likely say -- in response -- that, as long as we spend a one or two trillion dollars on this problem now, that we would then get into a position where the "connectivity" became profitable for us. In other words, we are to have faith that the tax-funded force we yield now -- will economically yield a pot of gold at the end of a several decades (and perhaps a full century), 1-2 trillion dollar rainbow.

A 50-100% increase in the already-enormous, redistributed wealth in this country -- that is what your action plan entails. Run the numbers, man. Half a million soldiers continuously deployed (and taken out of our economy) for likely several decades, and guess who pays for their living expenses? For what? Connectivity. At whose expense? Ours. For whose benefit? Ours. Really? In the first decade? Well, no. In the first decade of our tremendously increased spending, it is they who will primarily benefit from our wealth and productivity. But, after a couple decades of enormous redistributions of our wealth, then ...

I just don't buy it, Kurt. Though I know that the leftist NeoCons will find ways to force me to buy this product.

Ed
Anti-Machiavello-NeoCon-Straussian


Post 37

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 6:45amSanction this postReply
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Yes, but this statement is erroneous:
Making this assumption, that billions of humans are unthinking irredeemables (cattle, if you will), you are naturally led to propose a Team of Americans as the World's Police. And, while it's true that we currently know better about the best interests of most Middle-Easterners (better than they do themselves) -- this fact does not rationally justify the extreme increase in statism that world-policing entails. Only altruism does.
 
First, its not people who are irredeemables in the slightest, in fact quite the opposite.  They can and will/would do it themselves, were it not for a small minority of bad actors.  It is also not an "extreme increase in statism" in the slightest.  The resources are already there, and it is not capital intense like the cold war was (i.e. we don't need multi-billion dollar equipment to do it).  It simply requires a re-alignment of resources. 

It is also something that 1) Is already happening and 2) Yes, can gain support from people of various philosophical persuasions, excepting the extremists.  It isn't a cute sci-fi short story like you wrote.

Much can and will also be done by the private sector - and is, but in certain conditions we have great threats, #1 now would be North Korea, that we are going to have to handle anyway at some point.  Lets do it in such a way that 20 years later we don't have another Kim to fight, but instead have a unit Korea as a trading partner.  Tell me which costs more again?





Post 38

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

==========
First, its not people who are irredeemables in the slightest, in fact quite the opposite.  They can and will/would do it themselves, were it not for a small minority of bad actors. 
==========

This is what I'm saying. Small minorities (of bad actors) can be dealt with with perpetual surgical strikes. That's why I suggested we get M.A.D. (market-assured destruction) about it -- and profit from their conscious unreasonableness.


==========
It is also not an "extreme increase in statism" in the slightest.  The resources are already there, and it is not capital intense like the cold war was (i.e. we don't need multi-billion dollar equipment to do it).  It simply requires a re-alignment of resources. 
==========

But that ("already there" resources) ain't no justification -- and the "human" resources aren't "already there" (they'd need to be at least doubled, and possibly tripled). You'll likely counter with appeal to other large countries to take up arms alongside us (as you have). I don't have the same trust you do -- that this will happen anytime soon. Anyway, I'm off-track now. The issue is the issue of nation-building, and I'm, in principle, against that.


==========
It is also something that 1) Is already happening and 2) Yes, can gain support from people of various philosophical persuasions, excepting the extremists.
==========

Well, call me an "extremist" then, an extremist for rational individualism.


==========
It isn't a cute sci-fi short story like you wrote.
==========

Yes, but it could be much more like what I wrote. Nothing, in principle, precludes involving the private sector on a grand scale. Nothing, in principle, precludes us from actually fiscally profiting (as opposed to going into debt) from the mistaken positions of unlawful regimes.


==========
Much can and will also be done by the private sector - and is, but in certain conditions we have great threats, #1 now would be North Korea, that we are going to have to handle anyway at some point. 
==========

Agreed.


==========
Lets do it in such a way that 20 years later we don't have another Kim to fight, but instead have a unit Korea as a trading partner.  Tell me which costs more again?
==========

Wrong question -- because my solution doesn't involve a net cost to Americans. It involves a rational cooperation amongst ourselves, to gain a net profit from the irrationality of others (that is, until they wise up and realize that their stupidity is increasing our wealth at their expense). Kill the cruel dictators and let the people decide. Drop Thomas Jefferson pamphlets everywhere. Sooner or later, these folks will burn with desire for peace, freedom and prosperity. This path doesn't have to involve any great cost to us (like it already has).

Ed
"Human good does not require human sacrifice."

Post 39

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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Ed, perhaps you are right, I certainly wouldn't mind trying, but it isn't up to me either.  Sometimes I get to the point where I feel as if it is futile to discuss something that is so far removed from anything I have influence on... 


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