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Post 20

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:20amSanction this postReply
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Michael,
You just did precisely what I said in my previous post. You are implying that Branden wants to use this quote as a definition for hero instead of a rule of thumb for pre-evaluation before bcoming hostile.
I disagree.  Branden clipped a quote from the Talmud.  As you probably know, most everything in the Talmud is dependent upon its context.  It is a very dense collection of writings with no apparent order to laymen.  How it connects to other writings is critical to gleaning the full meaning of the statement.  So if a Talmudic statement is presented shorn of its context, then it is not unreasonable to take it at face value.  I did so with one significant exception.  I took account of the fact that a prominent Objectivist presented the statement.

Andy


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Post 21

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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You wouldn't want to water down the hyperbolic last phrase because that's what makes it memorable. Even though he is not literally a fool.
No, Phil, I wouldn't.  But Branden's rendition of a teaching from the Talmud isn't hyperbole.  It's nonsense.  It would be unremarkable if he weren't Miss Rand's acolyte, but he is.  I'm not going to drop that context to account for his use of the word "hero".

Let's face it, if Branden were not who is, no one here would have paid the least attention to this statement.  Because he is who is, people here have vested this Talmudic quotation with a lot of weight.  Does that not support my point that we cannot dismiss his Objectivist background when considering his use of the word "hero"?

Andy

P.S.  I agree with you 100%, Phil, that this conversation can go down a long-winded tangential path on English usage that I have no more desire for than you do. ;-)


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Post 22

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:43amSanction this postReply
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Andy,

Here is the full context of that quote, directly from Nathaniel Branden's article:
Later still, when she saw that libertarians often supported their position with aspects of her philosophy, without necessarily subscribing to the total of Objectivism, she became angrier still and decided that all libertarians were “whim-worshipping subjectivists.”

Being a more balanced and reality-oriented teacher of Objectivism than Leonard Peikoff, David Kelley addressed libertarian groups with the aim of persuading them that Objectivism was the best possible foundation for their political beliefs. For this he was denounced by Peikoff as a traitor to Objectivism. Poor Leonard.

In any event, today libertarianism is part of our language and is commonly understood to mean the advocacy of minimal government. Ayn Rand is commonly referred to as “a libertarian philosopher.” Folks, we are all libertarians now. Might as well get used to it.

About ten years ago, I came across a saying from the Talmud that impressed me profoundly. I have not been able to stop thinking about it. I have often wondered what might have happened if I’d had the chance to discuss the idea with Ayn—if there would have been any way to break through. Who knows what might have been different in the years that followed?

The line that so impressed me was: “A hero is one who knows how to make a friend out of an enemy.”
Sounds to me like he was talking about how to approach spreading Objectivism (rule of thumb), not about redefining "hero" or trying to twist the words of the Talmud all out of shape.
 
His phrase for his take on this quote is "impressed with" not "adopted" or "redefined." Because he was impressed with a quote that suggested less hostility and stated a wish to to have discussed it with Ayn Rand, this brands Branden as an evil bastard who is trying to undermine Objectivism?
 
I don't get it.
 
I only see that happening if the context is dropped and words are put into Branden's mouth that he did not say.
 
Too Valliant-like for my taste.
 
Michael


Post 23

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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Hi John,
Jordan I was not talking about announcing it to the world. There are certain behaviors that deserve to be called out person to person however. That includes behaviors we comdemn and committ to change in ourselves!
Okay. Why announce your repudiation or condemnation of another person to that person?

Jordan


Post 24

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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Roger you'll get wrinkles that way.

Less extreme but real world examples of behaviors which are encountered in therapy, with many clients feeling justified in their actions include:

- The man who slept with his daughter and got her pregnant.
- The wife who continues to have unprotected sex with strangers she meets in bars, *and* also with her unsuspecting husband.
- The couple who force their children to adhere to fundamentalist religous practices, with observable mental damage.
- The executive who is embezling from his company.

And the list goes on. Obviously the criminal is reported. Not always though! But much of the absolutely wrong but non-criminal must be faced and judged too.

The Benefits and Hazards article itself is incorrect on many levels. Others have beaten that horse to death and I won't ressurect the debate here.

But this is less about therapy than about the real world. How do we deal with people whose behavior is not just mistaken but reprehensible? Is it our responsibility or in our interests to lead *anyone* to virtue?

John



Post 25

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
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Dennis, nice article.  I haven't read the books you quote from, but your argument makes a lot of sense.

There are lots of ways to skin a cat (if you'll pardon the expression).  Some ways work better than others, depending on the situation.  Rand's calling altruism "evil" was like a splash of cold water to me, and it got me thinking in ways that a more temperate presentation would not.  ("While altruism may be harmless if practiced in a certain limited way, one can also see it as a negative influence, because it can have the tendency to. . . ."  Yawn.)  In different situations, the in-your-face technique doesn't work so well, at least assuming one's goal is to persuade others.


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Post 26

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 9:09amSanction this postReply
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quote: Roark becomes a hero by making a friend of Toohey? Utter nonsense.

Roark becomes a hero by making a friend of Wynand.

Post 27

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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The problem is with, "A hero is one who knows how to make a friend out of an enemy."

It is so open ended it has no meaning. You can't tell someone to "get the IMPLIED CONTEXT" when there is none. It up to Branden, or any speaker, to be precise and supply the context.


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Post 28

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:30amSanction this postReply
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'A hero is one who knows how to make a friend out of an enemy.'

Phil wrote:

"A less ambiguous way to say this [is to make] it clear you are not talking about vicious monsters but those who are not evil but disagree with you and are open to reason."

As Phil likes concrete examples, I think have one that this speaks to this issue. I had a situation in which I was in a conflict with a guy. Namely, he was trying to "get his way" by imposing his demands. My first approach was to engage him in a rational discussion. However, in the process of trying to be reason with him, he became belligerent, duplicitous, denigrating toward me, and attempted to intimidate me. He even had the gall of saying, "Give me the benefit of the doubt. I'm a reasonable man," and "Nothing about what I'm saying is personal." 

For my part of the argument, I stayed away from character assaults and focused on trying to understand the apparent "logic" he was trying to sell me on, and gave him my logic of how I understood the situations we were disputing. I attempted to be honest as I could be. At the time, I gave him the benefit of the doubt despite knowing that he was lying about certain things. My rationality and honesty seemed to do little good in getting through to him. Actually, it seemed to me that he felt he had the upper hand as he became worse as the argument progressed. It seemed to me that he felt I had "put me in my place."

Well, here is an example of trying to make an enemy into a friend, but after this guy's Jerry Springer performance, I had zero respect for him and owed him nothing but moral condemnation. Despite his claims, he had not earned the benefit of my doubt for he had clearly demonstrated in this argument, and from previous behavior, that he could not be trusted.

How many chances do you give someone? In that this person was not a friend in the first place, he had one strike and that was it. He swung, missed, and then threw the bat at me. ;-)

-Walter



Post 29

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:37amSanction this postReply
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Jordan: "Okay. Why announce your repudiation or condemnation of another person to that person?"

I probably wouldnt. Unless it were someone I valued. If a friend or near friend were engaging in destructive behaviors I would call them out - the repudiating and condemning is not really my style :) I have been called out on some of my own behaviors in the past. If the goal was to get me to change, it worked. There were no warm fuzzies, just in your face reality.

John



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Post 30

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:55amSanction this postReply
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Adam goes for it , like a good Hitler Youth, and attempts to turn  in one of his own:

I have encountered reports of would-be psychotherapy clients in all 3 categories in the memoirs of psychotherapists. The third category - a client seeking to become a more effective political activist, for causes that an Objectivist would condemn - is very, very common; it accounts for a substantial fraction of actual psychotherapy clients in California. I would not be at all surprised if Nathaniel Branden had actually "worked" with the latter.

Nice job. Does your paranoia know no bounds? Nice job, working the rumour and conjecture mill. Didn't you ever get over the NBI days? Even NB did, well enough to be socially acceptable. Why can't you?  You better have the balls to face off with Nathaniel on this one, buddy boy.

rde
No? That's what I figured.


Post 31

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:07pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

You gave me a tongue-lashing for allegedly putting words in Branden's mouth, and then you turn around and do that to me ...
... this brands Branden as an evil bastard who is trying to undermine Objectivism?
I said nothing of the sort.  While it may be convenient to pigeonhole me, I'm in no one's camp.  I have zero interest in the Rand-Branden melodrama.  All I am interested in is what these people have had to say about Miss Rand's philosophy.  Naturally, that means I give most of my attention on that subject to what Miss Rand has said and written, and much less so to Branden mostly because of his commitment to the dubious enterprise of psychotherapy.

Back to the real problem:  I think that in a world that first the socialists tried to level and now the therapists are trying to do, the need to defend the concept of the hero is paramount.  I have pointed out a disservice to that worthy defense by a prominent Objectivist who should know better.  Whether that disservice was from neglect or intent, I don't know.  I'm not in the business of reading minds.  I do know that the disservice was done.

You said you agree with me about what a hero is.  If you also agree with me that it is a concept worth promoting, then I'm not sure what the problem is.

Andy


Post 32

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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Rich Engle: "Adam goes for it , like a good Hitler Youth, and attempts to turn in one of his own"

Rich...is this what you really meant to say and imply about Adam Reeds character?

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Post 33

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
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Rich Engle,

You ought to be writing for National Review. They have a tradition with that sort of thing:
"To the gas chamber, GO!"

(Edited by Adam Reed
on 8/25, 12:37pm)


Post 34

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Edit : Based upon Adam's response below I stand corrected and am myself guilty of misinterpretation.

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 8/25, 12:56pm)


Post 35

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

For the record I was NOT defending, cautiously or otherwise, either Nathaniel Branden's use of this mistranslation or the mistranslation itself.

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Post 36

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis, thank you very much.  For someone like me who's introduction to Objectivism comes primarily from encounters on this board, you have clarified something that has baffled me since the first day I clicked the link that got me here.

I was talking to a friend yesterday (a friend who would never come here of her own free will, I'm sure) about the frequent use of the word "savage" to denote Native Americans and black Africans in the discussion of a recent article.  As you might imagine, she was appalled and upset, but I tried to explain the context (see, I'm learning something).  The way I saw it, the folks that were flinging "savage" around weren't really being racist.  Yes, I'd say they were expressing their hatred.  And yes, they were using a racially charged epithet to express it.  But from what I could gather, their hatred extends far beyond racial lines, including everyone whom they judge to be committed to what they have defined as "irrationality."  In that context, the racially charged language is just a convenient vehicle for their opprobrium. 

So, in light of that, I had to ask myself, "What is it about Objectivism that encourages such remarkably hateful ranting?"  And now I see.  These folks feel that Ayn Rand herself has sanctioned this kind of behavior as the only appropriate response to evil.  I'm not sure that that's really what she was getting at, but I'm new here.  Seems to me that a lot depends on how very reasonable you are and how clearly you understand the person you are condemning.  Any limit in your knowledge of the person or the rigor of your own reason could result in you flinging hate mistakenly.  Thankfully, not everyone on this board believes that being hateful is the best policy.

The distinction between the goals of a philosopher and those of a psychologist seems important.  A philosopher is not concerned first and foremost with helping people, only with stating her philosophy as clearly and conclusively as she can.  Such statements may indeed help a person (as Jay Pastore #25 shows), but that is not the first priority.  For a psychologist, the first priority is to help. 

Dennis's article quite ably makes the distinction between knowledge and action.  Certain knowledge (i.e.: this man who stands before me is evil) does not demand any particular action or expression in the abstract.  Context is important.  What are you trying to achieve?  If you are merely trying to state your position as emphatically as possible, then rant away.  But if you are trying to educate or bring someone to a better understanding of reality, perhaps there are more effective ways to go about it. 

And finally, I'd like to speak to Adam Reed's post regarding the proper behavior of a therapist toward a child molester in his office.  A friend of mine was exactly in that position.  Often, a therapist can deduce a patient's pathology during the intake session alone, but to blurt out a diagnosis at the end of an hour's conversation on moral grounds would alienate even the most mildly disturbed patient and ensure that no patient ever come back for the second session. The fact that a child molester is in your office in the first place is a wonder of the natural world; a tremendous challenge and opportunity to test your metal, as it were, in the art of healing.  That this child molester is in your office is enough to inform you that he is aware of a problem.  That this child molester was himself molested in his childhood is a near certainty.    One of his major problems, therefore, is likely to be the unprocessed and unacknowledged rage and shame of his own abuse, which he is reenacting as an ego defense.  To heal this man, that's the place you have start.  That a therapist, without eschewing his own moral clarity, work to understand the patient's subjective experience is a necessary tool of diagnosis and therapy.  To laymen, yes, a distasteful task (even to my friend, it was at times daunting), but so's cleaning toilets and changing diapers, but it is worthy work for those who take it on.


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Post 37

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 1:10pmSanction this postReply
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My survival and happiness, to be achieved, require that I judge others with the best concepts of evaluation that I possess. I have no “duty” to help anyone, much less the evil. My opportunities to “help” others are far fewer than my regular needs to judge them, in any event. Branden is here complaining about this whole approach of the Objectivist ethics. He is saying that moral judgment can more often be replaced with neutral terms like “beneficial” or “harmful,” rather than “good” or “evil.” He insists that we treat most people like a professional therapist should approach his (paying) clients. This is turning Objectivism on its head.

This is hardly surprising, since Branden attacks only a “straw-man,” his own warped and inaccurate reconstruction of Objectivism. Citing not a jot of evidence, he arbitrarily ascribes a “religious” judgmentalism to Objectivism, and then “refutes” it with a demand for altruism as our normal practice. And not even attempting to refer to Rand’s actual position on moral judgment—a position he had once professionally articulated—cannot be an innocent error, either. So forgive me for not being “helpful” to Mr. Branden—as opposed to stamping a bright warning label on it for everyone else—but this is dishonesty.


Post 38

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 1:32pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

If you could spare a moment for a repulsive troll, you piqued my curiosity ...
For the record I was NOT defending, cautiously or otherwise, either Nathaniel Branden's use of this mistranslation or the mistranslation itself.
What is the correct translation of the quotation Branden clipped from the Talmud?  What little I know about the Talmud, I respect it too much to hazard guesses about a selective quotation from it other than a lot of meaning is probably lost once it is removed from its context.  It would be interesting to know what the Talmudic scholars meant by those words.

Andy


Post 39

Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 1:34pmSanction this postReply
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Andy said:
I have pointed out a disservice to that worthy defense by a prominent Objectivist who should know better.  Whether that disservice was from neglect or intent, I don't know.  I'm not in the business of reading minds.  I do know that the disservice was done.
Andy, what you have done is pointed out what you see as a disservice.  Others on this thread, including me, disagree with you.  So, whether or not the disservice was from neglect or intent is a meaningless question.

But, I'm curious; what do you think Rand's definition of a hero is?

Thanks,
Glenn


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