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Post 40

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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Much as I respect MSK, I agree with Celeste. My Daddy used to troll or trawl (both spellings are used).

There is a danger in assuming that there might be any necessary relation between a word's present meaning and its etymology. In the modern world, there is often only a very tenuous connection with a word's origins. So even if ''troll'' in this area came from''troll'' in mythology, it would be irrelevant. That is why, while this article seems intelligent in general appearance, it isn't.

In the case of ''Popper-ism'',  I would invoke my stated principle - Know when to give up. That does not make Popperites dishonest. Their viewpoint has been seared and refined in their greymatter for decades, and change would involve major rethought from the ground up. They are too old to do it, often.

Many of the anonymous posters may be trolls - deliberate lying troublemakers - and I think some are. Others are deliberate honest troublemakers -- ie they are convinced they are right so they gleefully mess with minds. I suppose one might regard them as trolls too.

I am an anonymous poster -- ''I. N.'' means invented name -- but I don't think that makes me a troll. A coward perhaps? Well let's not psychologize. Let's just keep the rules of definition and don't be misled by appearance.

)(*)(


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Post 41

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
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Ciro,

Thanks, an occasional encouraging word lifts the spirits.  I am simply trying to learn about all this stuff, dismissing it out of hand does not feel right.


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Post 42

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 10:27amSanction this postReply
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Many of the anonymous posters may be trolls - deliberate lying troublemakers - and I think some are. Others are deliberate honest troublemakers -- ie they are convinced they are right so they gleefully mess with minds. I suppose one might regard them as trolls too.
And there is a third option... someone who is deliberately honest about a topic that others want that person silenced for, and so that person is deliberately labeled a "troublemaker" or "troll" in order to create an acceptable veneer for taking a wholly gratuitous silencing action against that person.

I've seen far too many people cultivate an air of unquestionable validity about them, so as to conceal their true, childish agendas.  And too often their sort of M.O. is the strategic use of such labels as "troll". 

(Edited by Celeste Norcross on 8/22, 10:29am)


Post 43

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 10:28amSanction this postReply
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Jody,

I am never deceptive. 

I think William was deceptive in asking for the material since, as he said, I had posted it before, that it did not meet his niche question on the issue is unfortunate, but I don't think his response was very adequate either. 

I am trying to learn what there is to know about a very difficult subject.  The more one searches the more contradictory the information becomes.  How can this be a settled issue, when no one agrees? 

Your lastest post, for example,  praises the veracity of Gould on the subject, yet here are a couple of quotes relating to Gould.


As for Gould himself...here's John Maynard Smith, Crafoord prize winner:

"the evolutionary biologists with whom I have discussed [Gould's] work tend to see him as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with, but as one who should not be publicly criticized because he is at least on our side against the creationists."

And here's Paul Krugman:

Now it is not very hard to find out, if you spend a little while reading in evolution, that Gould is the John Kenneth Galbraith of his subject. That is, he is a wonderful writer who is bevolved by literary intellectuals and lionized by the media because he does not use algebra or difficult jargon. Unfortunately, it appears that he avoids these sins not because he has transcended his colleagues but because he does does not seem to understand what they have to say; and his own descriptions of what the field is about - not just the answers, but even the questions - are consistently misleading. His impressive literary and historical erudition makes his work seem profound to most readers, but informed readers eventually conclude that there's no there there. (And yes, there is some resentment of his fame: in the field the unjustly famous theory of "punctuated equilibrium", in which Gould and Niles Eldredge asserted that evolution proceeds not steadily but in short bursts of rapid change, is known as "evolution by jerks").

What is rare in the evolutionary economics literature, at least as far as I can tell, is references to the theorists the practitioners themselves regard as great men - to people like George Williams, William Hamilton, or John Maynard Smith. This is serious, because if you think that Gould's ideas represent the cutting edge of evolutionary theory (as I myself did until about a year and a half ago), you have an almost completely misguided view of where the field is and even of what the issues are.

How can you be so sure about what you think you know about this subject? 

As to William he  ignored the issue of Horse Evolution, the Archeopteryx and the DNA studies which were part of the info posted.  One can not be sanguine as an expert on evolution and pretend not to hear certain questions.

I regret you have ignored Post 10 on "Biologists Look at ID".

(Edited by Robert Davison on 8/22, 11:15am)


Post 44

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

Thanks for the kind word.  It is certainly ok not to like my posts.


Post 45

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 11:02amSanction this postReply
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Andy,

Objectivism precludes neither hypothesis because of the current absence of definitive evidence for either.  It does however preclude both the materialism some atheists want to hang on Darwinism and the creationism some theists want to hang on ID.  The fact that many people have a priori stakes in the truth of one hypothesis or the other, it remains obnoxious to Objectivism to deny that a genuinely scientific disputes exists between the two.
Thank you.

The problem of non-life creating life, is a big one.  Experiments attempting to create life from inorganic elements consistently fail.  If you accept the big bang, and there are some who don't e.g. Hannes Alfen, it must be concluded that it created both inorganic and organic compounds.  But evidence for this appears difficult to find.


Post 46

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 11:07amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Public scorn is my favored "stick" -- my love and respect is the "carrot." All thee who wish to earn my love and respect -- must henceforth be given the chance to jump through some hoops
I think you have the right attitude.  There is only one person, since I have been here, that I would label as a problem.   That would be Nathan Hawking, who no longer seems to be with us.


Post 47

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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Robert-
Before I answer anything else about your post I have to say that I do not praise the veracity of Gould.  What I did say is that Gould did not doubt natural selection.  Robert this is a sensitive topic for me and I'm sure others here because since virtually Darwins time, creationists have used out of context quotes to try and validate their claims that "scientist" do not believe in natural selection.  These quotes always come from the same situations, which are internal disputes among scientists about the mechanisms of evolution.  Taken in context, they(the quotes) are never a denial of natural selection.


Post 48

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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INR, you wrote:
Much as I respect MSK, I agree with Celeste.
Whazzat?

Where did I ever discuss anything at all dealing with Celeste? Or her (I hope it is a "her," if not, my apologies) discuss anything dealing with me? Did I miss something?

I believe I was talking about horseshit - in other words, prime troll-feed.

Michael


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Post 49

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 1:14pmSanction this postReply
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It all just comes down to MSK telling little fibs to try to save face. That's all.

But unfortunately it's all a matter of record. Let's go to the tape:

MSK (Yesterday Post 22):...There was even a silly presumption in that previous exchange that I was ignorant of such a basic religious doctrine as determinism...

But hang on! What did he say last week?

MSK (Tuesday, August 9)
...Another thing that must be taken on faith...is that physical living cells cannot have volition. They need this ectoplasm for volition. Why can't they? Because of a word - *determinism, whatever that means*....
(Post 29, Axioms, The Eightfold Way, emphasis DB)

So there he goes again. It's no "silly presumption" on my part that MSK was ignorant about determinism. *He said so himself, plain as day*. It's just another case of "which-fib-did-I-tell"? Now he has to pretend he knew what it meant all along, like a child, just to save face. Perhaps he will come up with more clowning to try to explain it away - or perhaps silence is best. Either way, it's just sad.

Because the whole thing could have been avoided early on if MSK had simply said "ok, I was wrong, Daniel doesn't 'promote primacy of consciousness, I misunderstood". MSK could also have admitted that the mind/brain problem is more complex than he realised, and that it clearly wasn't his strong suit.

But no. Rather than make a couple of simple admissions, he had to repeat his fibs over and over again, more foamingly each time, as if that would somehow make them true.

Of course he *would* have done the right thing if he was, as he repeatedly insists, genuinely interested in *ideas* - in actually learning something in discussion. But frankly, I doubt he is. I can't help but think he's more interested in 1) posturing, with richly unintentional comedy, as the bold troll-slayer and 2) the sound of his own voice intoning on subjects that it is clear he knows next to nothing about. And he takes terrible offense if you are so 'malevolent' as to point his fibbing out.

Such is the price of narcissism. And now he's painted himself right into corner, and his ego won't let him out.

- Daniel



Post 50

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry, Michael, I was wrong to mention you in particular -- you are not the only one who accepts the use of ''troll'' by the article.

)(*)(


Post 51

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 2:03pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Thanks for acknowledging this. You bring up SH. I enjoyed locking zebra-horns with Son of Stephen (SoS). He was as verbose as GSII, though -- and THAT can be exhausting! My time-frame for judgment of others is usually around 6-12 months of continual interaction (though I make exceptions for the exceptional).

There are so many posters here who I hold in high esteem. I would like to single one of them out -- Linz. A while back, Jordan-the-possible-positivist asked if I had been banned yet (for being troll-like -- though not in those terms). At that point, Linz came to a defense of my character -- and instantly earned my deep respect and high esteem.

This boy keeps track of the good in the world,
Ed


Post 52

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 2:15pmSanction this postReply
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Jody:
>It looks as if Dean asked you some specific questions about Popperian philosophy. I dont know what kind of debate you wish to have, but I think answering his criticisms would be a big start.

Hi Jody

Well Dean asked me some pretty *broad* questions actually, rather than specific ones - rather like saying "what have you gained by basing your ideas on Objectivist epistemology being true?....". I don't want to thread-hijack, but I can give you a standing-on-one-foot version:

Dean writes:
>What have you gained by basing your ideas on #2 and #3 being true? Nothing I presume... nothing.

Popper's cosmological hypothesis is this: Existence is split into 3 "sub-worlds"

World 1(Objective/physical): The physical world of things, physical processes and forces
World 2(Subjective/nonphysical): The world of conscious experience - emotional inner states, fear, joy, hunger, pain etc)
World 3 (Objective/nonphysical): The world of abstract human creations - number systems, logic, arguments, art, theories etc

All 3 worlds interact, and depend on the prior worlds to exist. W2 emerged unexpectedly at some point from W1, like life emerging from dead matter, and subsequently 3 from 2.

Now, what is gained by this unweildy, frankly outlandish-sounding setup ? Plenty actually.

1) Objective physical reality is primary, thus avoiding subjectivism
2) Conscious states are non-physical, thus avoiding the strict determinism of the physical world and thus preserving human freedom.
3) Human knowledge (as well as physical reality) is also objective, and is not merely carried around inside our heads (ie: subjectively)

That's roughly it. If you want to know more here's a lengthier overview of some of its advantages:

http://the-rathouse.com/popobjectknow.html

- Daniel

Post 53

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 3:33pmSanction this postReply
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I'm also not forgiving the resort to a snide, condescending tone of many of these posters - all I am saying is this doesn't mean they are out to disrupt. They may be out to humble. Good luck with that.


Post 54

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
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I N Rand:
>I'm also not forgiving the resort to a snide, condescending tone of many of these posters - all I am saying is this doesn't mean they are out to disrupt. They may be out to humble. Good luck with that.

I agree entirely. And if they repeatedly dish it out, eventually they will get it back.

- Daniel

Post 55

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 8:06pmSanction this postReply
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Post 56

Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 8:57pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, it seems your posts are appearing blank...

Post 57

Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 4:17amSanction this postReply
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Ted's bumping old threads to make a clever statement, because Ted's a clever kind of guy. ;)

Ted, I'm sure you'll let Joe or I know if administrative measures need to be taken, correct? 


Post 58

Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 7:38amSanction this postReply
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Going all the way back to Post #20:
While I sympathize with Adam's criticism of occasional postings that appear to have been written with less than total honesty and forthrightness, his emphasis on  motives is disconcerting. Clearly, one ought to engage in intellectual debate for the purpose of clarifying and defending truth. However, to brand another as a "Troll", as characteristically dishonorable in discussion, strikes me as reckless and irresponsible. Reckless because one can easily be mistaken about the motives of another; people love to disparage the motives of those with whom they strongly disagree. Irresponsible because the motives that inspire one to make an argument that another dislikes are ultimately not relevant: all that really matters is the insight or error an argument might contain. To summarize, rational argumentation ought not be about the other person, but rather about the ideas in question.
Mark made it clear he didn't like the use of the word as a branding. I'll confess that until I ran into Mr. Barnes, who by this writing has become Mr. Boese, I didn't like it either. But I had to change my mind after many back-and-forths with Boese. For my own coming-to-grips with that word, I made it clear what I believe to be a troll, in the thread "If I'm Not An Objectivist, What Am I?:
You consistently find defeasor arguments for everything we say. We in turn tell you what ought to be arguments that defeat your arguments. But until you accept that you are not an Objectivist because you don't think like one, and until you stop trying to defeat our arguments and listen to what we tell you, perhaps proving you have listened by giving your own attempt at Objectivist thinking rather than what you are used to, only then will you begin to understand. Only then will you begin to stop offering arguments to our explanations of the things you ask us to explain.
I added the italics this time to show the point I was making. A troll will go on and on, finding defeasor arguments until we are blue in the face trying to find ways to defeat his defeasors, which he will never let us do. Someone who objects to what is said to him is not a troll if he can demonstrate Objectivist thinking of his own, by responding in a way that is not meant to defeat what has been said to him. A troll makes it clear that he not only does not understand, and that he cannot respond in kind with thinking that is at least on the right track; but he responds consistently by objecting to Objectivism no matter who formulates the response. Mr. Boese objected to a definition set by Ayn Rand herself, which would be acceptable as a rare occasion. But when matched with consistency by objecting to everything, he is just "trawling" for attention.



Post 59

Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 7:44amSanction this postReply
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Teresa wrote,

> Ted's bumping old threads to make a clever statement,
> because Ted's a clever kind of guy. ;)
>
> Ted, I'm sure you'll let Joe or I know if administrative
> measures need to be taken, correct?

I know that I've specifically asked Ted to contact the forum moderators if he really does believe anyone posting here is a troll, and/or to provide evidence thereof that whoever he accuses can face, rather than simply make unjustified accusations and/or insinuations.

That said, Teresa, would you be willing to consider rendering a pre-emptive judgement on my own trollishness, or lack thereof, so that I can know whether I really am bumping up against the rules and norms of the forum as a whole, or am simply disagreeing with particular members in the spirit of the first and fourth principles in the Forum FAQ?


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