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Post 40

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 6:19amSanction this postReply
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Just to add an FYI - The book is on back order at ARI

Post 41

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 8:10amSanction this postReply
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I know we are all used to the wonderful writing involved in the courtroom dramas we see on TV and in the movies. Holds your attention, laced with wonderful metaphors and analogies, all the trappings of style that make watching such shows a value.

Real life courtrooms and real life lawyers are often boring and the details of a real-life trail are often sleep inducing.

I will concede this much -- Valliant is not the best writer around.

But the substance is what counts in most trials and since I have been called both a lier and a dogged literalist (whatever that means), I will return with a discussion of "lies"

And, honestly, I don't care what trash (bad writing?) I have to listen to, if Nathaniel Branden murdered my mother, I'd be willing to listen to any prosecutor that could prove it "beyond a reasonable doubt."  He could be stupid even.

And, come to think of it, if one is on the jury and about to cast a vote, it  behooves one to fight off sleep and listen to the whole case, don't you think? I'd certainly want that for my mother.

Tom

(Edited by Tom Rowland on 5/26, 8:20am)


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Post 42

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
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Tom,

The reason many of us probably will not read this book is that it won't affect our opinion of Ayn Rand. She was a great woman and a genius, period. What did or did not happen during the Break is inconsequential compared to the philosophy she developed and the novels she wrote.

Concerning Nathaniel Branden, I have gotten a great deal of value from his books on psychology and I like the guy. However, I have trouble believing he can be objective regarding this one issue because of the inconsistencies in the two editions of Judgment Day. Given the extremely emotionally charged nature of the circumstances, I don't hold that against him.

Jim


Post 43

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 9:07amSanction this postReply
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Tom said:
I have been called both a lier [sic] and a dogged literalist
Tom, I checked the posts and I don't see where anyone called you a liar.

Glenn


Post 44

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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James,

I concur with your conclusions about Ayn Rand. I think that should put a period to the whole thing.

I, too, have found a certain value in things that NB wrote -- at least when I read them years ago. Not sure what I would think now.

But...and it is a rather large but. The treatment of Rand in both of the Branden's books and in "The Hazards..."  needed a rebuttal.  I'm sure a better written one will come along. In the meantime, the substance of this one needs to be addressed. This is all I am attempting here.

I do hold it against Branden that he let his emotions dictate  what he said. But more than that I hold it against those who have taken his and Barbara's books as "gospel" to such an extent that they have become emotionally attached to the image portrayed in these books. And this to such an extent that they are willing to be incoherently angry at anyone who might present the other side.

Tom


Post 45

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
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Glenn,

Thanks for looking....Perhaps you're right...I won't count the "disingenuous" in David's post that addresses me personally.

I can live with just "dogged literalist"

My apologies to anyone who didn't call me a liar for my claim that you did. Wishing didn't make it so, after all.

Tom


Post 46

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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Tom, for what it's worth, I certainly don't think you are a liar...not even a "dogged literalist."

I agree entirely with James' post #42. Since you do, too, that should be the end of it. Ayn Rand's personal value to me is her written legacy, not her personal life, whatever that was. And the personal value to me of her written legacy is simply incalculable.

Peace? 


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Post 47

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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Very good points and post, Jim.
 
Tom,
 
About the trial thing. I have no problem with presenting the "other" side. Especially if presenting it includes Ayn Rand's own words. I do have a great deal of difficulty with the format that was chosen.
 
It is already hard enough to have Ayn Rand's unpublished work available for objective (non-biased) public perusal because of the copyright owner's policy of always setting an "extra" agenda condition on its release. Now here comes a work flawed by an incorrect approach, a blatant ad hominem agenda and plain bad writing permeating her words.
 
I hold and maintain that Ayn Rand can speak for herself, even when she is hurt. She, of all people, doesn't need any help in making her thoughts clear - and she certainly does not need "moderation." I would like to hear her own words as she said and wrote them. And, as I do so love her, I want to see everything she did become successful.
 
If a trial is what was intended, why was the forum of a book biography sold on the open market chosen? Why not just a web publication, where the idea and prosecution can spread quickly? If a book form had to be chosen, why not make a collected writings format, with additional essays in the beginning or at the end?
 
Even you, as one who is very interested in supporting the theses in the book, admit that Mr. Valliant is not a good writer.
 
So if that is the case, how in hell is he supposed to sell his book? Who wants to buy bad writing? What is he relying on? The affair? There's already lot's of stuff out there. Ayn Rand's own words? Well his own approach sure got in the way of that. What on earth was he thinking?
 
Do the people involved in this project like fiascos?
 
Michael


PS - Just so you don't think I am pointing my finger without any suggestions to back it up, I do have a suggestion that would have probably made this book a very popular success. First present her writing as is, but with footnote numbers going to essays at the end. The only footnotes in the normal text running at the bottom of the page would be ones normally used for clarification - the controversy would be reserved for the essays at the end.
 
Then include the other side within the controversy essays, either with direct comments by both Brandens on the points raised or by respectable people who support them. I know that you might think that this was not done in the biography and memoirs, but I am not talking about maintaining the biased complaint-brief format as a rebuttal, but instead about presenting an idea for selling the damn book well. This approach would have provided far greater controversy than the book is now doing and would probably have done more to advance objectivity about this facet of Rand's and the Brandens' history than anything else since the Brandens' books came out. (I could even see Oprah interviews with this approach if it were packaged and pitched correctly - there is a huge human interest angle here.)
 
Edit - btw - Was the misspelling of "lier" a Freudian slip maybe?   //;-)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 5/26, 10:06am)


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Post 48

Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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Alec Mouhibian writes: "The only thing I don't understand is why David neglected to mention just how atrociously written it is."

 

I just don't understand why folks fail to regard the column that helped precipitate this discussion as holy writ to be either memorized or intimately re-consulted at every relevant juncture.

 

Look, I'll accept most of the further pejorative adjectives proffered to describe Valliant's book. Somebody buy me a thesaurus and I promise I'll do better.

 

However, I don't think the book is badly written on the level of sentence construction; as a longtime evaluator of books for a mail-order book service, I've seen too many sentences from the fifth dimension to make that claim. In a certain respect, Valliant can write. He is intelligible in his conjoining of subjects and predicates, the way people who yodel atop Swiss mountains are intelligible. But in my column I did at least hint at how awkwardly written the book is structurally. "It is the same story previewed at length, elaborated at length, and summarized at length by Valliant, who wants to make sure the reader gets it." And insofar as ludicrously and transparently bad argument is the stuff of bad writing, I think I made my point there too. That reading the book is like Fex-Exing your spirit into a black hole I will also readily concede.

 

From another angle, though, the book is quite expert in its yammering one-sidedness. I believe Valliant is a creature of high genius in this regard. Let's just say this is the guy you don't want to be stuck sitting next to on the train.

 

Rowland writes:

 

"I do hold it against Branden that he let his emotions dictate what he said. But more than that I hold it against those who have taken his and Barbara's books as 'gospel' to such an extent that they have become emotionally attached to the image portrayed in these books. And this to such an extent that they are willing to be incoherently angry at anyone who might present the other side."

 

And Bidinotto writes:

 

"I agree entirely with James' post #42. Since you [Rowland] do, too, that should be the end of it. Ayn Rand's personal value to me is her written legacy, not her personal life, whatever that was. And the personal value to me of her written legacy is simply incalculable."

 

Rand's personal life as well as her legacy is of value to me, since I am inspired by her life. Of course that doesn't mean I have to like everything she did, which I think may be Robert's point, or part of it. But here's the problem, Robert. It's not just Rand who qualifies for human being status. It's Nathaniel Branden and Barbara Branden. If human beings weren't involved I wouldn't expend two seconds on Valliant's febrile hack job.

 

Now, who is Rowland alluding to when he proclaims that somebody is "tak[ing] his and Barbara's books as 'gospel' to such an extent that they have become emotionally attached to the image portrayed in these books"? Not moi, perchance? And he's "holding it more against" me than he holds whatever ails Nathaniel Branden in his memoir against Nathaniel Branden--decried as a "spiritual rapist" in Valliant's book--merely because I don't slice and dice vicious injustice with the kind of somnolent detachment one deploys in tackling an arithmetic problem? Uh...hookay, guy, whatever.

 

Does Rowland even know my own assessments of Passion of Ayn Rand or Judgment Day? Frankly, I think Branden can be something of an ass at times, and certainly that his own conduct was not laudable vis-à-vis the End of the Affair, which seems to have dragged on longer than an episode of "Knot's Landing." But I also don't think he's the creature from the black lagoon. As I stated in my column, a column Rowland keeps insisting he actually read, I in fact a) find all parties culpable in various respects in the doings that are the subject of Valliant's book; and, b) am not going to essay juridical conclusions. Hell, I ain't the one who got dumped. Valliant, by contrast, is partisan with a vengeance, and evinces, on every page, the rampant water-carrying bias fecklessly attributed to me.

 

Judging by his characterization of Valliant's book, Rowland wants to conclude we must be "fair" to Rand, which "fairness" lets her off the hook entirely vis-à-vis her own conduct, neglecting even the cost she extracted from her husband; while, in point of fact, being strenuously unfair to other principals. Because what else is Valliant but obviously and strenuously unfair? And sure, Nathaniel Branden is an easy target, but that doesn't make him the infinitely deep well of malevolence that Valliant pretends he is.

 

The most Rowland will concede is that, yes, it would be great if Valliant could write as well as Shakespeare and Mencken combined; but at least he's spot-on giving the "other side." Valliant's is a book that is scrupulously and unscrupulously sadistic toward its subjects. A book that pretends the author is a fly on the wall of the brain of each party and that the sheer fact that his brief is mind-numbingly exhaustive from the perspective of its conscientiously narrow purview could demonstrate that it is in fact exhaustive and objective in its coverage of all the relevant facts. Sorry, it just ain't so. For endorsing this tool's assassination tool, Rowland owes the Brandens an apology.


Post 49

Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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Tom,

The people who take either the Passion of Ayn Rand or Judgment Day as gospel without critically examining them and judging the evidence are doing themselves, Ayn Rand, Nathaniel, and Barbara a disservice. There has to be some alternative to ARI's whitewashing and coverup attempts and a National Enquirer-style expose. I don't think we've reached that balance yet.

Jim 


Post 50

Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:31amSanction this postReply
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Tom, are we to conclude that you view the Brandens as dishonest opportunists who want nothing more than to build themselves up by dragging Rand's name through the mud?

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Post 51

Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
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David,
Somebody buy me a thesaurus and I promise I'll do better.
Good God! Then I want a dictionary from the same company.

//;-)

Michael




 


Post 52

Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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Miss Branden's book makes Nathaniel Branden look quite terrible. I haven't read Valliant's book yet but I fail to see how the Branden's could be construed as allies against Ayn Rand's name. Perhaps someone can explain that?

Miss Branden's book is very good. I like Rand more than ever after reading it.


Post 53

Friday, May 27, 2005 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
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Lance, I had some problems with Nathaniel Branden's Judgment Day, or at least the somewhat vindictive first edition. But only a few quibbles with Barbara Branden's The Passion of Ayn Rand, a very fine book. See the review by Roy A. Childs, Jr. published when the long-awaited book came out in 1986 (which Event, incidentally, began the rock slide ending in the creation of the Institute for Objectivist Studies, now The Objectivist Center). It would be a shame if anyone got his idea of that very compelling biography from such recaps as provided in the crud hit job by Valliant.


Post 54

Friday, May 27, 2005 - 2:55pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,

Dogged literalism is the inability to recognize connotations, implications -- no matter how strong and intentional -- metaphors, etc. Most of the time, it's a contextual problem. If you want a benign example, look at your own post in which you take my Nathaniel Branden murderer quip *literally.* My point was that no matter how much reason you have to despise Branden, you have no excuse whatsoever to even remotely like this book.

As for the lies, they have been addressed. I mentioned two of them, and they're major, heinous lies. There are about 6,000 more. Have you actually read the "book"?

Alec

P.S. David, my deepest sympathies for whatever you went through in your mail-order job; your reading experiences must've been inconceivably traumatic, if Valliant's writing is "good" in comparison.

Post 55

Friday, May 27, 2005 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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>if Valliant's writing is "good" in comparison.

Well, I'm not sure this is quite what I mean. I merely say that he is able to write sentences and even paragraphs that are clear enough in their own terms--he does communicate his thoughts, such as they are, at a certain micro-level--and that he's a real ace at hitting the reader over the head with a baseball bat non-stop. Nobody can take that away from him. If we were giving away Pulitzers for continuously screeching at the reader, Valliant would win hands-down. I affirm that we must honor his achievement in this area. It's a real talent.

I'm sure, Alec, that you must have once or twice come across self-published fare that does not attain even to Valliant's level of word concatenation. These books are ridden with typos, misplaced modifiers, run-on sentences, scare quotes that are "used" for "no" conceivable "reason," did I say run-on sentences, and like that. If not, imagine the sign in the window of your local restaurant, only book-length. Or drop by your local high school and pluck out an English paper at random. A volume I looked at a year or so ago that "proved" how gayness is metaphysically turpitudinous per the Dictates of Objective Reality, I think by a guy named Joe Jackhammer, is an example that comes to mind--not the worst I've seen but let's say mid-range on the Awful Punctuation, Grammir and Sin Tax meter. We all occasionally type "it's" instead of "its," but these guys make a special point of it.

Valliant is intelligent, and probably could write a good and even persuasive book if he ever troubled to reconstruct his demented psyche from scratch and sign an oath to follow an outline. His present attempt wouldn't be so offensive if it weren't a willful perversion and misdirection of the author's intelligence.


Post 56

Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 5:34amSanction this postReply
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David,

I'd like to hear what you liked about Barbara Branden's book. I just picked it up for the first time in several years. The book really reads differently after the first time. I can remember the first time just being excited about learning volumes about Ayn Rand's life, good, bad or indifferent. The main thing I still don't understand is there is nothing in Barbara's or Nathaniel's book that talks about the development of large chunks of the philosophy in the 1960's. As a biographer, I would have written about her development of the Objectivist Ethics, epistemology and esthetics. These are the essentials to me and yet  no one has written about them.

Jim


Post 57

Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 10:33amSanction this postReply
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I keep hearing people criticize the quality of the writing in Valliant's book.  I thought the writing was fine.  I never noticed the writing one way or another--which is itself a sign that the writing was at least okay.


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Post 58

Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 12:09pmSanction this postReply
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"As a biographer, I would have written about her development of the Objectivist Ethics, epistemology and esthetics. These are the essentials to me and yet no one has written about them. " [Jim]

There is certainly a great need for "intellectual biography" whether small insights or entire books. And not just on those three branches of philosophy as topics (that would be too needlessly self-limiting an assignment).

How did Ayn Rand -become- Ayn Rand, mentally, cognitively?

This is what I'd like to see a careful exploration of. Instead of nuclear war between pro- and anti- the person sides, gossip, enormously secondary issues, vituperation and character assassination, or the foibles of each particular biographer. [ just the movement from: the passion of a.r. to: the passion of a.r.'s critics to this threads farcical title: the passion of: the passion of ayn rand's critics should tell you something of level of topic.] Let's study the subject not the biographers of the subject.

And, just a thought, let's spend at least -some- time trying to STUDY WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT ABOUT THE SUBJECT.

This is one of the reasons I find this thread and other discussions like it frustrating: We have one of history's great minds in front of us.

What do you think might possibly be most valuable to learn from such a person? When you study something towering, which reaches further than other buildings can, what might you want to learn about it?

Most of us are very, very far from having achieved the persuasive power, knowledge base, reasoning level, ability to essentialize, or writing skills of Ayn Rand. To name five things.

The most important thing about one of history's geniuses, one who flourished in our own time not five hundred years or two millennia ago, is that we have access to how this person developed from her own journals and letters and early writings not merely from associates. Unlike Aristotle, we have not lost all the knowledge about this person.

How did she induce the philosophy?

What do the journals tell us?

Was it a specific series of steps?

Was Ayn Rand's distinctive *methodology* involve?

And does it have its own developmental history?

Did her private conversations help?

What of this is applicable to things -we- can use?

And a hundred more questions like this.

--Philip Coates


(Edited by Philip Coates
on 5/28, 12:15pm)


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Post 59

Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel O,

I have no wish to interfere with your enjoyment of Mr. Valliant's stylistic muse. I have not read the book yet, but I did get halfway through the article from which the book was based - and I simply could not keep my eyes open back then. I gave up. Who could have imagined that that thing would have turned into a book? His style back then was horrible (an overbland but accusatory enshrinement of pettiness was my impression) and, from recent accounts, it has continued to be so. 

Phil,
How did she induce the philosophy?
What do the journals tell us?
Was it a specific series of steps?
Was Ayn Rand's distinctive *methodology* involve?
And does it have its own developmental history?
Did her private conversations help?
What of this is applicable to things -we- can use?
That is a nice start of a list I would be interested in reading about too. If some day you should be entrusted with unpublished works by Ayn Rand to publish, and I dearly hope someone like you will, I hope that this sort of approach will be the focus.

You didn't mention the main thesis of the work under discussion: How can her words be used to prove that the Brandens are scum? Unfortunately you did not choose Mr. Valliant's main theme, nor the copyright owner's agenda in releasing this material.

But that is what all the hollering is about. I want to add to a comment I keep making. Ayn Rand deserved much better than that. Now I want to add, so do we. And even another. So do the Brandens.

Michael


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