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Sunday
May 8, 2005

A Proto-Objectivist Defense of Teetotaling? by Luke Setzer

During my transition from Christianity to Objectivism in late 1988, I found myself repeatedly engaged in rationalistic justifications of common Christian dogmas. This one examines alcohol consumption. As Joseph Rowlands explained at SOLOC 4, the "all or nothing" fallacy demonstrates itself here. I published this column in October 1988 in the North Carolina State University newspaper, the Technician. It only received two responses, one supporting my critiques and the other challenging my "all or nothing" approach. I confess now that some studies support positive health effects of moderate red wine consumption, but remain skeptical of the idea that drinking to the point of reducing inhibitions offers egoistic benefits. (Read more...)
Discuss this Article (23 messages)

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 12:32am

Luke—nothing here that a good, or even bad, Shiraz, wouldn't cure! We'll get you there, buddy! :-)

Linz

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 1:52am

Interesting article Luke, particularly in light of my own conversion from Christianity to Objectivism. Thanks for posting this - thinking back, there probably was a time when I would have agreed with a substantial amount of it!

Of course, alcohol use isn't either/or - most people can enjoy a substantial amount of alcohol in a given meal or evening without becoming alcoholic. That said, many of my age do choose to drink themselves into a total stupor rather than actually dealing with their problems (I tend to go out somewhat less often than many of my age, precisely because that attitude is so prevalent), and some go further to the point of dependence. In that context of course alcohol use does become destructive - and if such behaviour does occur out of addiction, there is rationally a point at which it becomes appropriate for that individual to go teetotal.

But non-addictive consumption, in a spirit of celebration (as I imagine was practised by most at SOLOC4) is to my mind perfectly rational and healthy.

MH

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 8:07am

I see no wisdom in limiting the activities of functioning responsible adults, because the disfunctional might be undone by example, any more than I believe adult activities should be limited to make the world child proof.

I have lived my life and made my mistakes and avoid lecturing the young, lest I become like the hypocrite Saint Augustine who prayed:

O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet.

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 8:07am

Luther, I agree with Matthew that it is not an either/or situation. I enjoy wine, an occasional cocktail, etc., but from past experiences I know what happens when I have too many glasses, so I try to limit my intake (my tolerance is rather low for alcohol).

I believe it is all in one's approach -- what is the goal in having the drink? If it is to get drunk, one might want to check one's premises. ;)

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 9:09am

Luke,

You sure took me back to the college days in the 70's. As one who can no longer drink alcohol (yep, I am one of "them"), I am not against it. Not even alcohol abuse. Here's why:

I used to have a roommate - Andy. He was a typical bleeding heart liberal of the era and he used to run me crazy all the time. He was constantly meddling in my affairs, trying to make me feel guilty for the plight of some hungry poor folks or Indians or whatever when I ate a donut, extolling the virtues of socialism to the heavens, hugging trees all the time, always bitching about the selfish greedy "establishment," constantly butting in with his crap when I was trying to hit on my girlfriends, just being as inconvenient as a nonstop jack hammer outside my window. Except he was not outside - he was inside the room I slept in and studied in and tried to get laid in.

Well try living with that day in and day out for a year. I don't know how I even managed to pass my courses and keep my sanity.

In our dorm, we did not have a bathroom in our individual rooms. There were two collective bathroom/shower installations per floor. So, after being Andy-tortured for a full year, one fine day dear Andy was sitting in the john with his guitar, taking a crap and singing "Going to Carolina in my mind..." to his heart's content when in came rushing a powerhouse of a football player. He was sick from being pissy drunk and needed to vomit. He banged open the stall door and let Andy have it with everything in him. Puke all over - on his hair, shirt, pants, in that fucking guitar, even on his dick. And he was simply too big to get away from.

Lord, what a glorious day!

If alcohol abuse will get me that - even once in a lifetime, then all the rest is worth it.

Michael

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 10:03am

MSK - Ick.

Luther, from your article:

College students, take heed: The mouth of that bottle is the barrel of a gun aimed down your throat. You may think for the moment that you are safe, that you can continue to escape into the land of Peter Pan on the weekends. But each shot of booze is buckshot in the gun of alcohol abuse, a gun that could go off at the height of your career and leave your brains all over the wall.

I love it when you rant! ;) Of course I'm sanctioning your article because you write well, and you are Luther, but don't - <<hic>> - fully support every assertion.

Our conversations and your article have made me think about this issue, thanks.

Julia

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 10:16am

Julia, thanks for the sanction and the comments. Years in the engineering profession have taken the edge from my youthful skill of rant, a skill which still has its place in certain circles. Hopefully, SOLO will help me to restore that skill to a razor sharp cutting edge without a need for ... flow charts!

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 1:05pm

College campuses are the breeding ground for aspiring alcohalics. It's pathetic. Is there a tie-in to alcohalism and collectivism maybe? Obviously, the major reason why people drink is to relax and enjoy themselves, which is great and a natural thing to do, however too many people don't just drink to get to the initial relaxing buzz and then say 'when', they get utterly and completely shitfaced and blitzkrieged. Goodbye liver, it was nice knowin' ya'.

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 3:22pm

My partying days are long over. Watching people self-destruct way too many times have made me see alcohol and drugs in a different way than I did, say 15–20 years ago when I rebelled against my teetotaling family and married into an alcoholic family. At one time I was living with my ex, his brother and his father, all alcoholics. My father-in-law died from alcoholism. I remember telling myself back then, "well, at least he doesn't hit me." I did the al-anon thing, hated it. I was married for ten years before I finally said, "fuck it" and left. My youngest kid was almost five years old and couldn't talk, everyone thought he was retarded. Its been a rough road, but leaving was the best thing I have ever done.

I am hoping my kids take after my side of the family (the teatotallers) rather than their father's side. I have a teenager, and though she dresses pretty crazy, she is sensible and straight and wishes to stay that way. She calls it being straight-edged. The other day, Tina made a comment to me about how she though it was pretty awesome that I am one of those who doesn't get addicted and how I just quit smoking seemingly with no effort. We talked for a bit. She understands completely that she may or may not be prone to addictions, and she's not interested in taking any chances. At least for now. One of my biggest fears in life is that my kids will be alcoholics.

I also found out recently that a very dear friend of mine had died of liver disease. She had just turned 40. I saw the signs, tried talking frankly to her, and after making a public spectacle of her drunken self (again) cut the friendship a few months ago. She was not going to get out of denial, and I wasn't about to travel that road again. So I walked away from the closest friend I have ever had. She's gone now and I feel awful about it. I have not had a drink since the last time I saw her. Don't want to.

So maybe a teetotaling lifestyle may not be so bad for me after all.

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 3:49pm

I actually blame the pathetic endemic of college binge-drinking (which is drinking for the sake of delirium, and not taste) on our scandalous drinking age-minimum and the teetotaling mentality. It's the All-or-Nothing fallacy at its most blatant: you keep kids away from alcohol so they never learn how to enjoy it, and as soon as they become tall enough to reach for that forbidden fruit, they go fucking crazy.

It pains me to say this, but the European style is much healthier in this respect. Over there, kids are introduced to alcohol practically from birth, and they learn how to handle and enjoy it. I fell in love with beer when I was three, and now when I tell my peers that I drink for the taste, they stare at me as if I just told them I eat fried foreskins for breakfast. They can't comprehend the thought. So, you either drink your liver livid or you must give it up altogether. Great.

Alec

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 7:08pm

Alec, I agree that the forbidden-fruit analogy is part of the problem in the US. I know the French and Italians think nothing of spritzing junior's dinner beverage with a drop or two of wine to calm him down. ;)

Seriously though, such an approach, where wine and spirits are a part of the dining process, makes them less important and enticing.

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 7:47pm

Hell...I just liked to get fucked up. :^)

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 8:43pm

http://www.nationallampoon.com/flashbacks/how2/how2.html

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 9:38pm

Yes, I've used that pic in the past. I feel it's representative of my...errr...youth.

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 10:23pm

Dayamm! More kittens around here? Hmmmmm...

Is this becoming a Solo thing?

Sorry to gross you out Julia. LOL... Not my intention. It is very hard to have a fond memory about something like that. The warmth in my heart, though, of that dear boy Andy getting his just reward after a year of mindless torture made me forget all about the unpleasant aspect...

Now on to the serious stuff. I have had a problem with alcohol abuse in my past. I could write reams of observations about it. But there is only one comment worth making right now.

You can drink heavily for many reasons, both good and bad. If you continue to do so regularly, the drinking itself will become a very serious problem.

And you get to keep the other problems you already had.

The only thing that has worked for me has been total abstinence (almost 15 years of not drinking alcohol now). However, I do not wish to stifle the enjoyment of others. I see too many who handle light drinking well. I just can't.

Well, maybe there is one other observation. People who drink heavily on a regular basis usually become selfish in a childish spoiled-type manner (as opposed to rationally selfish) and forget the hurt they constantly inflict on the ones they love and who love them. I certainly was no different. Kat only scratched the surface of the hell of having to live with people like that.

Soooooooo... If you can, you should. If you can't, then don't. Period.

For those who can - moderation is a good idea most of the time (peppered with occasional moderation of moderation itself...)

(Er... there I go again if I don't watch it... Wanna take a walk on the wild side, baby?...)

//;-)

Michael

Monday, May 9, 2005 - 8:21am

I don't like a single drink. I generally do not appreciate alcohol with food, unless it is a really good beer with Mexican food, or a good wine with a robustly-flavored meal. If I am going to drink, I want to catch a buzz, be silly, and have fun. That is the purpose of booze.

Knowing my personality, I am too driven, too neurotic, too t-i-g-h-t to really just go off on a flight of fancy and silliness. My career choice has really cemented these traits (and to some degreecompletely caused them), as I typically must focus my attention on a thousand important details over the course of a typical day--and I bring the worry with me wherever I go. To some degree, any busy, practicing lawyer (especially trial lawyer) MUST do so--this is not a 9 to 5, light and fluffy occupation. It is one of the main reasons that I do not suggest law to people as a career suggestion, unless tax law or something equally esoteric and dry suits your personality. In those few niches, you can still make boats of cash with relatively little stress.

I can go out with my buddies, throw back several drinks, and the laughs are quick, fun, and harmless. I laugh and have fun with my friends without booze, just like we'd likely laugh and have fun in a gray-apinted cubicle. But just like we prefer a crowded pub with pretty things to hear and see, we also prefer some booze.

I submit that this is an utterly healthy and appropriate approach to drinking alcohol.

Monday, May 9, 2005 - 8:56am

It's really not a good idea to get habitually jacked-up for most people. I'll nip any indications to the contrary in my last few posts right in the bud. People with actual lives, that have 9-5 jobs and wear ties and have to go home to their wife and kids, and feed the little bastards as well, shouldn't get sloshed. At all. What's that's thing? That saying? "Now I'm a man and I put away childish things"? Something like that. For tension- and stress-relievers, leave the nightly blotto to the young and pure of heart. We sad old and/or responsible fuckers should play tennis. ; P I hope Methuselah Perigo isn't reading this or he'll be sure to jump in and tell me how old I ain't.

Anyways, when you're young, away from most of your family and friends (and can therefore do them no harm with your Sean Penn-like antics), and are subjected to daily beatings of the physical training variety that serve to stave off the aggressive beer belly, I say go for it if you can handle it. I knew guys that couldn't. They'd get drunk and turn into jerks. Or sobbing wrecks. Those are the worst. I could handle it. I could get really, totally smashed in the barracks or a seedy bar in TDC, Korea, and still stumble home reasonably well, pausing only to engage in some impromptu hand-to-hand combat in the middle of the street and perhaps toss some lawn furniture and a large potted plant into a swimming pool.

Basically, I'm saying something that keeps getting said for some reason: do it if you can handle it. Fleeing from the sight of a nice cold bottle of beer because of the sheer terror it evokes--even though you've taken Luther's advice and never actually tried it--is one hell of a shitty way to live. "The barrel of a gun"? Jesus Hepburn Christ. I couldn't imagine how someone makes their life work with something like that ticker-taping in their head. But apparently some people do, and good for them. : P

Friday, May 11, 2007 - 8:45am

I've been on a non-drinker my whole life. I have went almost two years having drunk nothing but water. I don't smoke or use any illicit drugs.

I find it quite pathetic that you need to use anything to get happy.

Friday, May 11, 2007 - 6:11pm

Have went?

Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 9:35pm

I started out as a teenage Objectivist never wanting to touch any alchohol because I thought it would dull my thinking. ( No snide comments now !! :) ) Later I found out how hard it can be to be pushing one's own limits for ten, fourteen, twenty hours a day and then, when the rare opportunity arises, switch to relaxation and fun. The buzz definitely helps with that. And the sleepiness which, for me, kept me from ever having a hangover. Stress even just from too much work is bad on our health too. I finally decided to slow down on both counts ( the constant intense work and the countering alchohol ) and add humor and relaxation to each day. ( I am SUCH a quick learner LOL ) I highly recommend all three changes :)