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Post 20

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, virtue can have no other good use except to further one's happiness. It is a means, and the end is values (including emotions).

Also, because we have not met the perfect person yet does not mean that person can't someday exist. We are still in the throes of the revolution and most of us are still reeling from the previous regimes.

Once someone attains moral perfection, he will of course have to daily (hourly) maintain it.


Post 21

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Good repost, my man. The analogy is a little weak.

So let me just say this for now: being moral  is a hell-of-a lot easier than playing the piano.

Is that too strong? Probably. But it better be easier or you'd have to do what Robert B., quite rightly, dreads: concentrate on your Hanon and Czerny for your mind, rather than concentrate on your Hanon and Czerny for the piano.

The way I see it is this, in still other words. Thinking, barring brain damage or modern education (etc.) is a natural function, something we are "born to do" (not, btw, as a talent but as a capacity) but not trained to do. So we have to learn the skill. And practice it every day BY doing whatever we do, with the mind turned on.
 
Tom


Post 22

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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Robert B.,
You show once again that you have a fine grasp not only of ethical theory but, more importantly, of life.

Since I'm presently writing an essay entitled Perfect - Enemy of the Good?
I'll defer any comments on the subject.

You allude to an epistemelogical principle it would be good to discuss more in depth
(no doubt on another thread,), which I think goes to the core of Philip C.'s post,
(and a dozen other similar ones he's posted on as many threads):

What kinds/how much evidence (analysis, etc) does one need to properly
(i.e. correctly and fairly) assess another's character (or one's own for that matter)?


Post 23

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Is the conclusion that weakening her message was immoral hers or yours. I know the incident and don't recall that she says that her action was immoral.  Can you give me the exact reference?

Thanks,

Tom


Post 24

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 6:36pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

Some very good questions which I hope we'll get a chance to discuss here or on another thread.

Tom

PS I will be interested in you article, as well.

(Edited by Tom Rowland on 4/20, 6:42pm)


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Post 25

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
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Dave,

We are actually starting to agree. I have nothing to disagree with in this last post of yours. Maybe a bit of doubt over what characteristics a perfect person would have, but definitely we are on the same wavelength now.

btw - I do believe that it is possible to be morally perfect, one time at a time, but then you stumble sometimes and simply have to get back to being perfect to get back up. I do not believe in MP autopilot...

Tom, my man,
So let me just say this for now: being moral  is a hell-of-a lot easier than playing the piano.
I have been laughing all day at the antics going on around here, but nothing hit me harder than this. ROFL....

I just may engrave that quote and put it on my wall...

My instrument was trombone, but I traded it in for a baton. That is a hell of a lot easier than even morality because a stick of wood or fiberglass doesn't make a peep. When it screws up, you point it at someone in front of you and say that they are wrong. Period. You win every argument and you are "perfect."    //;-)

The downside is can you imagine anything harder in life than trying to convince some 100 odd South American civil servants to NOT massacre a masterwork by Beethoven & Co. during world cup soccer season? I have actually done that and still have nightmares about it!

Michael


Post 26

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Glad I could give you a good laugh.

But I do notice there is nothing in your post to my point.

Too bad.

I guess we're done actually discussing this issue.

So be it.

Tom


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Post 27

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,

Not done discussing by far. Just waiting on your definition of moral perfection. Seems useless to talk in depth about something when I don't know what the hell it is.

So we can still banter. You're a nice guy and I enjoy it. btw - How's the scotch?

Michael


Post 28

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 5:20amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

The scotch is OK, but not my favorite libation.

As to the definition -- I honestly haven't come up with one that satisfies me -- and, while Rand clearly thought it was possible and desirable, I haven't found one in the places I've looked (I use the CD Rom).

Here's the point I don't want to miss in the definition (if possible and if it belongs in the definition) -- that virtue or morality is not an end in itself.  That I agree with. That's why I made the point in my original post in some other thread that rationality -- turning the mind on -- was in the background of everything else. It's also the reason I said it better be easier than piano playing (or trombone playing or conducting or being an engineer, etc,) because it is the means to that end, not an end in itself.. But I also think that this is a separate issue from whether moral perfection is possible and/or desirable.

The "nobody's perfect" idea smacks so much of "original sin" -- and that idea really needs to be thrown out the window, don't you think?

More later,

Tom


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Post 29

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:49amSanction this postReply
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Just popping in to refill your drinks as needed and enjoying a glass of Southern Comfort while I sit on the Colonel's lap.  *purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*

The subject of this discussion is "moral perfection" and so far I'm still not sure whether a definition is possible because it seems to mean different things to different people. Maybe I'm just a bimbo, but the term seems terribly subjective to me and I cannot see it defined clearly, even when I'm wearing my objectivist glasses.

Tom, you said,
The "nobody's perfect" idea smacks so much of "original sin"
I agree with that, but only to a degree. I don't believe we are born with "original sin" but we live and we learn things throughout our entire lives that directly affect our views on morality and perfection and how it relates to an individual or to a group such as Soloists.  Moral perfection is something deeply personal. I cannot define it in words, but I know a guy who personifies my idea of morally perfect... Michael Stuart Kelly.


Post 30

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 7:56amSanction this postReply
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The issue with 'perfection' is that to say one isn't nor can be is to proclaim the word as null, without definition - because to have definition, it needs be referenced to reality.  As such, yes, agree that the idea of not being able to achieve it is as an 'original sin', which covered the same premise - an imperfection in the nature of the being.

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Post 31

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 8:25amSanction this postReply
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The longer this goes on, and the more I think about it, the more I wonder about the intelligibility or relevance of a concept such as "moral perfection."

The reason for the definitional problems we've had here is that it isn't even clear what "moral perfection" pertains to. Exactly what is it that exhibits, embodies or exudes the standard of "moral perfection"? Is it our actions? Our character (our moral habits and history of past moral choices)? Some inner attitude or mental state? What is it that's "perfect"?

If it is our actions, then how does "moral perfection" differ from simply "acting morally"? We don't say that Bidinotto is "morally perfect" when he goes to work. Or pays his mortgage. Or answers an emotionally difficult question with absolute honesty. How can you apply the standard "perfect" (ideal) to an isolated choice? We can say of each of these choices either that I acted morally, or I did not. But what do we gain from adding the concept "perfect" to any of these moral acts in isolation? Nothing that I can see.

So when we use the term "moral perfection," it doesn't seem to be an assessment of isolated actions.

What then?

I think we would all probably reject the idea that "moral perfection" refers to some attitude or inner mental state, apart from actions. Objectivism is not platonism.

What's left?

The only thing I can think of is that it pertains to character: to the aggregate of our choices, actions and habits, over some period of time. By its nature, an aggregate of choices and actions must take place over time. That means "character" necessarily pertains to our moral history or past record.

There's been considerable resistance here to the idea of applying the idea of "moral perfection" to one's past actions. Some have gone so far as to say that if that were done, nobody could be deemed "morally perfect." But if "moral perfection" necessarily pertains to character, and if character is a record of choices, actions and habits established over time, then "moral perfection" can only refer to an established record of total integrity and complete consistency over some period of time, in our thoughts and actions, in our principles and practices.

But over what period of time? When do we start the meter of moral assessment? At birth? At adolescence? Ten years ago? One? Last month? Any cutoff point seems utterly arbitrary and subjective.

Well, then what's the point? We are all in agreement that we should not be prisoners of our pasts. We are all in agreement that what's truly important, for each of us, is how we act now, and in the future. What, then, do we gain from a "concept" that doesn't pertain to any of the individual choices and actions we take now, or in the future? What do we gain by applying some abstract moral standard to assess our total past history -- or of some arbitrarily delimited past timespan -- which, in any case, is supposed to be irrelevant to who we are now? What do we gain from this evaluative preoccupation with the past?

I read somewhere that the ancient Greeks believed that a true moral assessment of a person's life could not, or should not, be undertaken before he was dead. And that undertaking necessarily would be done by others. Perhaps some notion of "moral perfection" might be relevant to the survivors in summing up the life of the departed. But of what practical benefit is such a concept to the deceased -- even while he still lived?

What, indeed, is the practical purpose of a concept of "moral perfection"? None that I can see. It is an evaluation of our moral histories up to the present -- but that's something we can't change. And as a practical guide for our current and future choices and actions, there is nothing added by the word "perfection" that is not already implied by the word "moral."

As far as I can tell, we don't seem to disagree here about what constitutes principled moral living. We agree that it's important to establish good moral habits, as part of our "character." We agree that we should act with integrity and moral consistency. And doing such things, day by day, moment by moment, may eventually add up to a life that someone may wish to label "perfect."

But the business of life is in the living of it, not the labeling of it.

An Objectivist should not live in order to be judged Perfect. He should act morally, in order to live.


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Post 32

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Character - a man's system of moral virtues (and potential moral defects) is, as you yourself pointed out, not a goal in itself but a tool for the achievement of excellence in life. But this implies that its quality is measured by its capabilities in the present - what a tool was used (or misused) for in the past is not directly relevant.

Thinking of character as though it were a matter of cumulative historical record is a by-product of the very mistake - thinking of character and virtue as goals rather than means - that your otherwise excellent article identified.

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Post 33

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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Dayamm Robert B!
The longer this goes on, and the more I think about it, the more I wonder about the intelligibility or relevance of a concept such as "moral perfection."
You come out with this right after Kat finished writing what she did about me? What's the matter, dude? Was that personal or what?  //;-)

(Joking aside, there you go doing it again. Your whole approach gives wonderful words to the views I hold on this issue. The first sanction bonk was mine.)


Tom,

My way of expressing these things is more in the vernacular, but let me see if we come to a meeting of the minds here:

Original sin - If we say "nobody's perfect" in order to justify original sin (especially the Christian brand), then that's really fucked up. I agree with you 100% on this.

Undeserved conceit - If we say that we are "morally perfect" in order to justify an irrationally inflated opinion of ourselves, either to show off, or worse, to try to cover over a bottomless hole of self-doubt in our souls, then that's really fucked up too.

Manipulation - If we loudly proclaim "morally perfect" as something you lose with one little slip just to whip people into line and make them feel guilty and obey you, then that's really really really fucked up.

Incompetence - If we loudly proclaim the virtue of being "morally perfect" because we simply don't know any better, but we feel guilty as all hell because we have no idea of how to get it or how to hold it, then that is so fucked up we shouldn't even be discussing philosophy in decent company.

How's that for a starting point? I know "fucked up" isn't exactly Objectivist jargon, but I think you know what I mean.

We can even break out some wine now if you want...

Michael


Post 34

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 9:17amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Wow!  May I just say that this is you at your best! I don't think I can go so far as to yield the field, because there still appears to be some slippage between what I.m trying to say and what you're trying to say.

I'm still working on James K. and your earlier responses (lunch was not enough) and I'm including some study of your original articles from back in the late 80s if that's OK. (Peikoff vs. Rand, etc.)  I thought that might give me some more context to understand where you're coming form (isn't that a handy phrase? Our pasts do so influence our presents).

What I'm working on now is the fact that you see your statement as an inductive generalization, and I'm seeing it as a philosophical issue.  So I ask for evidence of your induction in specifics and you come back with philosophical argument. Talk about working at cross purposes.

Maybe I'll write a little (little? I'll do my best) something on where I'm coming from so you'll know my context.

Tom


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Post 35

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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Robert:
there is nothing added by the word "perfection" that is not already implied by the word "moral."

Bingo! So why'd you get all worked up about it then?

I'll note in passing that, given a rational conception of these terms:

 - "Rational selfishness" - There's nothing added by the word "rational" that's not already implied by the word "selfishness"
 - "Laissez-faire capitalism" - There's nothing added by the word "laissez-faire" that's not already implied by the word "capitalism"

I'm sure you could add more. The point of the redundant word is to underscore the radical difference that Objectivists have with the conventional view. In Objectivism, as opposed to say, Christianity, one can actually achieve becoming a moral person, i.e., one can become "morally perfect". It's a very this-worldy possibility. (See also: "The Possible Dream", by Harry Binswanger).

(Edited by Shayne Wissler on 4/21, 10:00am)


Post 36

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 10:06amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

YEA, man, we may be closer to that wine vault than I thought!  We'll see.

Can I take the items on your terrific vernacular list and say something just as short and hopefully, just as sweet?

Original Sin -- yep, that's fucked up.

Undeserved Conceit -- the truth is I agree with Robert B, here, I think, and a comment made about Rand's attitude toward her own moral perfection (I think on the Passion of BB thread). I don't think anybody thinks of themselves this way, undeserved or deserved. I certainly don't think of myself as doing anything more (or less) than living my life in the light of reason -- pursuing my goals to achieve my happiness recognizing that reason is the only way to do that. Is that "moral perfection?".  That's a good philosophical question, and important for other judgments (see below), and I am "obsessed" with doing well at living my life, but if you asked me I'd say what Rand said: "I don't think of myself that way, one way or another."

Manipulation -- here's were we get in trouble, I think.  Because the thrust of a lot of Robert's posts on this subject -- and he's not alone, but he at least talks about it with intelligence-- is what he believes about Rand  -- that she set herself up  (as opposed to being set up) as a god-like icon who never made mistakes. Or that Peikoff or Schwartz or whoever has done the same.  I hold that much, if not all, of this -- may I call it "crap" -- is "eye of the beholder" material of the first order. Here's where I call on "evidence before a judge and jury" kinds of testimony.  It isn't enough -- for me, at least -- to say that AR yelled at somebody. (I promised short and sweet, so I'll postpone further comment)

Incompetence -- yep, snafu of the worst order.

Let's take a break for some wine and some scotch. Two out of four ain't bad.

Tom 


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Post 37

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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I don't want to sound circular (as opposed to being square), but "moral perfection" means being perfectly moral. In other words, since morality has to do with virtues, it means practicing all of the virtues all of the time whenever any and all virtues are relevant to the moment. In other words, it means being perfectly honest, perfectly just, perfectly integrated, perfectly independent, perfectly proud, etc. If at some moment, we achieve this state of being (involving thought and action, as all virtues imply), then we are morally perfect.

For each person, the virtue that determines perfection is pride. That is the virtue that monitors and examines the rest of our virtues. For those of us who haven't cleaned up our psychoepistemologies completely, the pride of virtue will not always be accurate. And there's the rub. How do you know you're cleaned up? Well, that's the subject of a VERY long book.

The purpose of the idea of moral perfection is to give each of us a goal to shoot for, a realization that we can be the best that we can be. It should not be used primarily as a reproach.

And, as everybody agrees on, the final purpose of moral perfection (or perfecting our morality) is to achieve our values, to give greater breadth and meaning to our values, including happiness.


Post 38

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Katdaddy,

You like Southern Comfort? Well..................I think I'll drop my wine for now and join you over at the bar.

Anyway thanks for the refill.

And be careful what you say about Michael, it might (?) go to his head. 

And besides, you shoulda waited  for me to define it, right?  ;-)

Tom


Post 39

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 10:46amSanction this postReply
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David,

Well said. My only caveat is my usual caveat... "reproach" in whose eyes? and by what standard?

Tom


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