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Post 60

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Robert. It's me, Oyster. Leave it to you to over analyze this. ;-) Yes there are exceptions to the rule and I fancy myself as being able to switch from one cognitive style to the other. I don't seem to have any control over which issues I apply these to though.

As Laure Chipman and Jennifer Iannolo state, I don't much care for most women either. Only the rare, intelligent, non-giggly, rational type for me. But then, I don't care much for many men either. Call me a snob, but that's how it is.

In order to attract more women to your gatherings you said: "That means adding films, arts excursions, fiction discussions,..."

I could go with that, but..

"...poetry readings, self-help speakers, parties, dances, etc." bleh, No thanks. Of course I'm not part of your group, but hey, you invited me to comment.

I won't even venture to guess why we're different, probably a combination of genetic imprinting and environment which may emphasize that imprint or subdue it and add a learned process.

I grew up with a stern and often "cool" mother, yet, I adored and revered my father above all else. He is your "typical" male and I worked hard to pattern myself after him. He did not coddle me nor was I "Daddy's little girl", but he treated me as an equal, showed me respect and taught me much. I think that's why I'm not your typical, touch/feelie female all the time.

(How's that last paragraph for conveying my message "holistically"?)

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Post 61

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 3:42pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Jennifer, talking about estrogen, I just come back from a seminar about estrogen and breast cancer, given by a women!

I have a group of tight-knot girl friends - we shared same dorm room for 5 years in university. Although we haven't seen each other very much in the last 15 years or so, we still have this incredible bond. It's remarkable that we all ended it up here in America. We have had reunions once in a while and just booked another one this coming Christmas. All of us are working mothers and I can't wait to get in a "estrogen bath of giggles and gossip" with them. We are each other's mirrors.

On the other hand, I don't really have close American girl friends... 


Post 62

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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WAIT ONE MOMENT FOLKS!!!

I almost forgot. This article is Bidinotto's FIRST for Solo, after 454 posts, he finally decided to take the plunge.

For the record, I believe that 454 posts *prior* to an article submission, meets the threshold for being morally repudiated.  

I am sure Chris Sciabarra agrees. Then again, he might have agreed after Robert's *first* post!

George



Post 63

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 4:10pmSanction this postReply
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Robert wrote:
Some, whose reading lists apparently are as limited as their imaginations, would prefer to believe that my only possible sources of knowledge about issues of cognitive psychology must have been Ayn Rand and Leonard Peikoff.
...
Anyone who would reduce all of that to one or two supposedly purloined paragraphs from a long-forgotten lecture course by Leonard Peikoff embodies a unique mindset, too -- one that I need not discuss further, since that task already has been ably accomplished by the late Eric Hoffer.
Odd remarks from someone who is so touchy about being insulted. Of course, you did insult me in a passive-aggressive way, so maybe it's not so odd. (I am particularly "impressed" by the way you so courageously called me a true-believer).

Your psychologizing aside, I have a good reason to call you out on this. You aren't some newbie to the Objectivist scene, and however much you'd like to erase Leonard Peikoff, his works constitute an important part of the Objectivist corpus. I would expect any serious Objectivist intellectual to be familiar with it. (And I note that Chris Sciabarra, who doesn't even claim to be an Objectivist, is familiar with it).

If you want to claim that you aren't a serious Objectivist scholar and so my standards don't apply, or if you want to argue with my standards, fine. But your insulting and hypocritical psychologizing isn't going to cut it.


Post 64

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 4:12pmSanction this postReply
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[Post 49] "Couldn't we solve the problem of too few Objectivist women participating in group meetings by introducing more women to Objectivism to begin with?"

Becky, this seems awfully extreme and radical because it may actually alleviate the problem.

Don't you know that we don't allow commonsense -solutions- to problems on this list?

Phil

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Post 65

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 5:20pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, in several posts you have raised a whole host of fascinating and valuable points that lead in many different directions and have numerous important implications.

Thank you.

I do have some disagreements,though:

1. I don't think all of the different cognitive, emotional, and attitudinal styles you mentioned in the original post ( deductive vs. inductive, learning through stories, "detached" style, being intuitive....etc. ) all fit under the wider analytic vs. synthetic categories.

You wouldn't want to be accused of an "Analytic/Synthetic Dichotomy" would you? :-)

2. You said, "The style of presentation of the philosophy in the nonfiction is entirely different: it is abstract, analytical, full of formal definitions and chains of logic. It dissects; it differentiates; it explains. But unlike the fiction, it does not do as good a job of personalizing, concretizing and inspiring. And that's where we lose [women]...It isn't that women lack the ability to grasp that sort thing. It's that few of them want to. "

There is a strong element of truth in this, but it's somewhat overstated in three ways:

a) Women: It's unfair to women to say the majority don't want to grasp chains of logic, etc. I've had great success with female audiences of non-Objectivists on these kinds of topics. It's how the subjects are -presented-, whether they are concretized, made vivid. And if they are made -relevant- to their lives*.

But it's not the "analytic" content or subject--don't steer away form that!!

It's what else is missing. You can't have steak without the sizzle, just like you can't have sizzle floating in the air.

b) Nonfiction: Rand heavily uses concretes, personalization, and inspiration in her non-fiction essays from Apollo 11 on down. It's one of the reasons she is such a great writer of nonfiction. Secondly, I don't think the nonfiction thinking style turns off thoughtful, otherwise open women.

Often she projects a dark view of the universe (sinking in a sea of mindlessness, no honest or heroic people in the culture, etc.) and accusing too many opponents of dishonesty or viciousness.

That seems objectively implausible to men and women ... or to constitute going off on a tangent.

c) Women turned off to Objectivism: Meeting real life Objectivists is very often a greater turn off. Too many negative or not well-rounded people lacking in benevolence or social skills. My non-Objectivist girlfriend when I was in NYC really liked Atlas but didn't enjoy being around the people I hung around with.

3. This is probably not a disagreement, but it very much needs to be said that many of those alleged 'female' traits you list -- being inductive, empirical, trying to see the whole picture, enjoying the arts, being in touch with and oriented to emotions -- *ought* to be adopted by male and female Objectivists far more than they are now.

They make for a healthy, well-rounded human being whose reason and emotions are in balance.

Moral: Come in out of the shadows and be fully alive...

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 4/07, 5:28pm)

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 4/07, 5:38pm)

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 4/07, 5:50pm)


Post 66

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 5:26pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, there is much to be said about 'smelling the roses' as there is about disecting them.

Post 67

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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Hey, I think the previously-maligned Myers-Briggs personality-type theory can bring some clarity here!  There are different styles of thinking and learning.  Some people think in broad generalities, others (like me) need concrete examples.  Nothing wrong with either approach.  This is the Intuitive vs. Sensate dimension of Myers-Briggs.  I don't think that dimension has any correlation to gender.  I think Robert's point is that if we look at the Thinking vs. Feeling dimension, women tend to be feelers.  Which is why I don't like many of them.  Now, we can convey Objectivist ideas in different ways to appeal to different learning styles, but we can never make it appeal to the Feelers, because it's just contrary to the philosophy.  We reject emotions as a means of cognition, so we need to write off the Feelers.  I think that's fine; Objectivism doesn't need to be such a "big tent."
(Once, my husband and I were eating in a restaurant, and there were a group of women eating together.  My husband asked me, "Wouldn't you like to have a group of women friends that you could get together with and talk about your feelings?"  My response, "Eww.  No.  I'd much rather have lunch with a group of men!")


Post 68

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 7:58pmSanction this postReply
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Judy Milan wrote: “I could go with that, but..

"...poetry readings, self-help speakers, parties, dances, etc." bleh, No thanks. Of course I'm not part of your group, but hey, you invited me to comment.”

 

I am sorry all, I am jumping in this thread and have not read a 10th of what is going on but Judy’s comment inspired a thought that I think both men and women would be excited about—and I think a few soloists, whose intimate details of their lives I cannot disclose, but who know very much about the topic I will mention…I think what objectivism needs more of, or anyone for that matter, is ADVENTURE. The full-out romantic, inspired exploration and creation of one’ values!

 

Comments?

 

Michael


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Post 69

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
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Geez, Michael, look what happened between Ayn herself and Nathaniel?! What a disaster!

Post 70

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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Folks, I take a few hours' break, and you swamp me with comments and challenges. I'd hoped to put in the first words on this topic, not the last, so after this one, I trust you'll continue on without me for a bit, as I've provided a gadzillion replies on this thread already.

I of course generally agree with Jennifer (Post 58), mainly because she has the excellent taste to generally agree with me.

Chris (#59) offers a lot of interesting scholarly perspectives worth my chewing over. My own views on this topic were inspired by several fertile scholarly sources already noted, but drawn most heavily from private observation and experience over many years in a number of arenas.

Incidentally, my goal in this is not to score debating points or win authorship title for some grand psychological theory, but simply to address some practical problems of relationships, communication and organizations with promising observations that merit "field testing." Fully proving the points and implications I suggested in the essay would take a vast amount of investigation (and probably still wouldn't be believed by some). I suggest that for the practical purposes I intended, interested individuals simply should test these ideas on their own as working hypotheses in social situations, and see if they stand up.

To Judy (#60) -- hi there, "Oyster." (She's a regular commentator on my blog, folks.) I appreciate your input. In your noting that you are "not your typical, touch/feelie female all the time," you actually affirm my point -- that there is validity to the "typical" cultural stereotypes. Laure acknowledges much the same thing (#67) in saying, "I think Robert's point is that if we look at the Thinking vs. Feeling dimension, women tend to be feelers. Which is why I don't like many of them." However I don't agree with Laure that the actual distinction is "thinking" vs. "feeling," as I stressed in the essay, but two different styles of thinking.

To Phil (#65), you are right in your point (1). I don't mean to reduce everything to two cognitive styles, it's much more complicated than that. But note the difficulty I'm having here in getting many people even to accept the fact of "thinking styles" (well acknowledged by psychologists), let alone multiplying these styles beyond the number two! For reasons both of space, and simplicity for absorbing the basic idea, I necessarily had to oversimplify. (2a): I didn't mean to imply that women "don't want to grasp chains of logic" -- only that they tend not to like formal, highly abstract, theoretical presentations of logic, but preferred less academic ways of communicating and perceiving truths. (2b): Rand is a superior communicator in nonfiction forms; note my essay wasn't addressed at her style of presentation, but at typical presentations by other Objectivists. (2c): Negative encounters with Objectivists can confuse things in isolating what it is that females don't find appealing about the "ism." However, part of that aversion is surely the prevalent tendency among too many Objectivists to turn almost any casual social encounter into an abstract discussion or debate -- a tendency I've witnessed about 2 billion times at social events and forums since I first got involved with the philosophy nearly 40 years ago. Women tend to "live in their heads" far less than men. And that's a virtue, not a vice.

Finally, I am pleased that George Cordero (#62) has assumed the much-coveted role of being my Boswell, faithfully following my every post, keeping score for you as to how many I've written, even determining for Sciabarra which ones he might not like. That kind of devoted attention to every nuance of my utterances merits my completing forgiving him for his moral repudiation.
(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 4/07, 8:18pm)


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Post 71

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 8:33pmSanction this postReply
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"For my own part I think no innocent species of wit or pleasantry should be suppressed: and that a good pun may be admitted among the smaller excellencies of lively conversation."
 
--- James Boswell 1740-1795


Post 72

Thursday, April 7, 2005 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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Jolly well said, Boswell.

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Post 73

Friday, April 8, 2005 - 1:27amSanction this postReply
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I realise I'm coming into this discussion rather late, but this is a tremendous article Robert, providing considerable food for thought, and many wonderful posts have followed in the thread. Thanks all :-)

MH


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Post 74

Friday, April 8, 2005 - 2:52amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I enjoyed this article tremendously. The response you are getting shows clearly that you touched a universal nerve.

I have never been to an all-Objectivist social function, but I do think that a certain amount of male-female profiling makes good sense, even if it is not accurate for all cases.

I am not familiar with the studies from which you obtained your statistics. I would very much like to know the controls used to define and study each group. I keep trying to imagine how they arrived at determining whether a person is either (a) an Enlightenment type (Modern), or (b) anti-Enlightenment type (Cultural Creative), but I simply can't. Maybe by simply asking them - but then that would not be too reliable.

Back to basics. I find it much easier to tell males and females apart. (Also, did they do anything on Kittens?)

Joking aside, analyzing people on an inductive-deductive type spectrum (and I GREATLY prefer these terms to analytic-synthetic, which reeks of cobwebs to me) - or even emotional-rational - makes ideas for establishing verifiable controls in surveys jump out at me - like pretesting a subject to determine which type of approach is predominant in him/her and to what extent.

The variation of activities in my personal and professional life has led me to the necessity of developing both to a rather high degree of focus. I feel my life has been much richer for doing that. What is interesting is that when I do creative work, I have to be predominantly emotional/inductive, and when I deal with business affairs, I have to be predominantly rational/deductive. I cannot be "balanced" and do good work in either area.

It was hard to learn how to shift mental gears when I needed too, but it got much easier over time. Maybe understanding these differences more will not only help in doing things that attract more women to Objectivist events, but it could also provide a basis for creating techniques for a person to develop his/her "weak" mental bias without being bored to death.

Michael


PS - Namesake! - Shame on you!     //;-)


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Post 75

Friday, April 8, 2005 - 3:58amSanction this postReply
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Never in the field of human polemics has so much nonsense of so little import been spewed forth by so many at one time on one thread. Wotta loada bollocks!

Linz

Post 76

Friday, April 8, 2005 - 4:54amSanction this postReply
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Sam wrote:
Just as a personal observation: I am a structural engineer with a background in scientific programming. I am also highly visual and intuitive and, I believe, creative. But one thing that utterly turns my mind blank is the kind of presentation that tries to diagram concepts. A prime example is Luke's article:

http://solohq.com/Articles/Setzer/Experiencing_Objectivism_through_the_Enhanced_Tri-Quation.shtml

Sorry, Luke, I'm sure that this kind of presentation could convince some people of the value of Objectivism but if it had been my first exposure my eyes would have just glazed over.
I find the mixed responses to my charts interesting.  Two female SOLO members have told me they like the charts.  One of those two said the article in question, along with its related articles, helped her to decide to make a major career change and to experience a profound sense of inner peace!  Neither of these women are engineers, but Sam and I are both men and engineers.  So I sit here puzzling over what lessons, if any, I can draw from this slim feedback set.


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Post 77

Friday, April 8, 2005 - 6:27amSanction this postReply
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So, I guess you all are saying men and women are wired differently. Hmmmm....now there's a thinker.

Our Chicago group has been nearly 50/50 with just one more male than female at the last couple of meetings and no one brought a partner -- although some people knew each other from NIF, a long-running group on the southside. I hope we can maintain a relative balance. When there are too many guys around I feel like I'm on mars or in a sports bar.

I like balance, and I am happy to be meeting other objectivists.  And I feel extremely fortunate to have found one of those rare objectivist men who defies all the stereotypes and is adventurous, emotional/inductive, rational/deductive and especially emotional/rational.  We are both Venus. We are both Mars. It works well for us.  

(purrrrrrrrrrrs and jumps into the Colonels arms. He carries Kitten off to the kitchen....)


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Post 78

Friday, April 8, 2005 - 6:29amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

Now, really, are you saying Robert's whole article was bunk?  Or just our conversations in response to it?  Have you completely disregarded the idea that some people are more comfortable going from abstraction to concrete and some people are more comfortable going from concrete to abstraction?

For myself, I try to remember Ayn Rand's advice in The Art of Fiction:  she says that the only way to integrate knowledge fully is to train oneself to dance from concrete to abstraction to concrete.  She emphasizes that it should be that easy and automatic, like dancing.  Her advice in how to do that is to consider an abstraction and then think of all the concrete examples of that; and to separately think of concretes and draw abstractions from them.  By doing this consciously one can learn to do it more or less automatically.

Of course, teaching how to do this can only be done for the people who actually stick around to learn it - which is essentially the point of Robert's article.

Jason


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Post 79

Friday, April 8, 2005 - 9:13amSanction this postReply
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Time permitting, I could probably come up with many more examples to underscore my key points that...

(1) there is a significant difference between how women (typically) tend to process, evaluate and communicate information, and how men do; and

(2) the overwhelmingly "male," "analytical" approach to cognition, communication and organization within the Objectivist movement tends to repel (quite unnecessarily) a disproportionate number of women, hampering the movement's viability, growth and cultural influence.

Besides what I've already offered in evidence, I just remembered another "data point" relevant to this discussion.

A few years back, a member of TOC who is a successful marketing professional volunteered to conduct a "focus group" survey of TOC members about their attitudes toward Objectivism, TOC and its future plans.

One fascinating result from the survey was that women -- and we're talking about Objectivist women here -- overwhelmingly found the terms "Objectivist" and "Objectivism" to be negative and off-putting! Their reason? Because, they said, these terms exuded to them images that were "cold," arid and cerebral.

Objectivist men, by contrast, were far more charitably disposed toward those labels.

Those contrasting reactions support not only the proposition that men and women tend to perceive and evaluate things differently, but also the proposition that the Objectivist movement is losing female interest as a result of its commitment to the typical "male" methods to cognition, evaluation, communication and organization.

But alas, that analytically-based approach also seems to be self-reinforcing and (worse) cognitively self-insulating. At TOC, the survey feedback results from women ultimately carried no weight in the group's subsequent decisions and activities. And here at SOLO, the very methodology which so many women find off-putting now is being used to challenge and resist all evidence that a "female deficit" problem even exists!

If that mindset continues to prevail, I fear that Objectivism is doomed to remain an insular "boy's club" -- which means: a tiny, marginalized subculture, with little influence on the wider world, instead of a growing and flourishing cultural movement.

My counsel is for people here to stop analyzing this from their armchairs and debating other fellow "analysts" about this, as some "theory." Forget the theorizing. Instead, go out into the world and just start asking those Rand readers who aren't Objectivists -- especially female Rand readers, and especially those one-time Objectivists who have left the movement -- why they find/found it unappealing. Or show intellectually bright individuals of both sexes the same piece of Objectivist proselytizing, and monitor their responses.

Don't debate them: Just ask, and just listen. You may be surprised and sobered by what you hear.


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