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Post 20

Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 6:00pmSanction this postReply
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Rick,

Exactly what is your point? If you acknowledge that this lie was a "good call," how can you say that it constituted contempt for Barbara's mother?

Absolute standards are not acontextual.



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Post 21

Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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Rick Giles said:

"The degree by which you have to 'handle' or 'humour' somebody is a measure of your contempt for them."

Contempt? Giving someone peace of mind during the last few breaths of the only life they will ever have shows contempt for them? I strongly disagree. I admire Barbara actions very much. You may claim the title of "uber" objectivist, I don't mind.

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Post 22

Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Rick!
 
Wanna pass me some of that shit you're smokin', dude? (cough, cough)
 
Sounds like you got the real deal...
 
Michael


Post 23

Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
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mmmmmm..... that's some good Columbian Katnip you are smoking there guys.    *thud*

Post 24

Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, you said,
The person who knew the full context was Barbara, and she is not a silly woman.
Lying is not an option in noncoercive relationships. It can never be good for the deceiving party because it is an attempt to escape reality and the consequences of living in it.
I strongly hold that context must ALWAYS be a factor in following a "moral commandment." 
I hear the word commandment aligned with  moral often as if that were a bad thing. The virtues are commandments -- of reality. If they are not followed, the person not following them suffers, just as those who do not follow the gravity commandment will suffer the consequences. There was not a context in Barbara's situation that warranted not telling the truth.
Even Ayn Rand approved
I'm having a V-8 moment.


Ethan,

I've never known of any situation in a relationship in which honesty and justice were not appropriate. Objectivists volley the word  context around like Rodney Dangerfield on a tennis court. It's true that everything has a context, but what context are you talking about?


Kat,

I'm not having a V-8 moment.


Rick,

Please have your 1st self and 2nd self talk amongst themselves and get back to me.


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Post 25

Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 7:03pmSanction this postReply
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David asked:

but what context are you talking about?

The context that Barbara's mother was dying. She was worried about her daughters future. While you can bandy around the idea that her worries were unfounded or whatever. In the context of the event, Barabara understood that the facts of reality were soon to be of NO importance to her mother. Spending anymore of WHAT LITTLE time she had left worrying over it was useless. That's the context I'm talking about. Sure, Barbara could have told the unvarnished truth to her dying mother. The net result would have been more pain for a dying person. Nothing else. Barbara understood the nature of the untruth and realized that it would have no negative impact on her life, and ease her dying mothers mind for what little time she had left. How you choose to proceed in your life is your choice. In this instance, I'll applaud Barabra's actions as proper...in context.

Ethan

EDIT: Fixed name because I'm a bone-head (Thanks Kat)

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 5/22, 7:59pm)

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 5/22, 8:01pm)


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Post 26

Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 7:29pmSanction this postReply
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David, you wrote:
There was not a context in Barbara's situation that warranted not telling the truth.
That is a completely despicable and evil thing to say. Shame on you!

I hold utter contempt for that comment.

Michael


Post 27

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 6:10amSanction this postReply
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Ethan said,
The context that Barbara's mother was dying.
No, the context was a friendly, loving relationship. In such a relationship, the two people are supposed to care about each other enough to not want to escape the reality of the other's life.

If we feel we have to lie to another person, we don't really care greatly about that person. We don;t respect that person's ability to deal with reality -- and that is the true measure of friendship and love.

It is in such situations that our soul is measured. Will we stay steadfastly with the reality that is so important to us or will we surrender to altruism.


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Post 28

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 6:25amSanction this postReply
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David said:
If we feel we have to lie to another person, we don't really care greatly about that person.
And with that, David, I bid you adieu.  You are a fool and I will not be reading your posts any longer.

Glenn


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Post 29

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 6:29amSanction this postReply
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David,

The more you talk the worse it gets. You wrote:
If we feel we have to lie to another person, we don't really care greatly about that person.
You are now insinuating that Barbara did not care greatly for her mother? At the dying time?

And a death bed is not a context?

Bah!!! You want to be guru that bad?

Michael


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Post 30

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 7:18amSanction this postReply
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David,

You have a formulaic, contextless, and inflexible philosophy more appropriate to an insect than a human being.

"It is in such situations that our soul is measured."

This statement I agree with completely, however.

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Post 31

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 9:36amSanction this postReply
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David said;

If we feel we have to lie to another person, we don't really care greatly about that person.

The key words here are "have to."  She didn't have to, it was just what was appropriate given her evaluation of the situation...

We don;t respect that person's ability to deal with reality

As I noted, reality wasn't going to be important for her mother in a bit. Why waste that time.....

Will we stay steadfastly with the reality that is so important to us or will we surrender to altruism
Nothing was sacraficed here.  Altruism isn't an appropriate term for this action.

I can see why you disagree with Joe so much about his virtue dichotomy article. Virtues and morality itself are not hard "always this never that rules" they rely on context. There is no intrisic value in honesty. Value requires someones judgment. Here Barbara could weigh the value of honestly hurting her mother for what little time she had left, or telling a harmless (yes it was harmless) falsehood and easing her mothers last bit of time in reality. Robotic values aren't values at all. Those who seek programable rules and regulations to guide there lives wind  up as mindless, souless, jargon spewing computers. I recall the case of the "American Taliban" whose name escapes me at the moment. His teachers in the Taliban noted that he wanted to be told an absolute right way to do and say anything in every situation. He didn't want to think. As the group Devo said in there song "Freedom of Choice:"

Freedom of choice is what you got
Freedom from choice is what you want...

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 5/23, 9:37am)


Post 32

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:18amSanction this postReply
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It bears repeating - ethics is a code of values to guide one thru life, not commandments to direct one thru life....

Post 33

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 5:24amSanction this postReply
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Alec,
Exactly what is your point?
That there is no such thing as tragic beauty.
That life is the standard of value for so everlong as it lasts.

And, in conclusion, therefore the above sentiments are just a bit south of shameful.
 If you acknowledge that this lie was a "good call," how can you say that it constituted contempt for Barbara's mother?
Contempt is, from time to time, a good call.
Absolute standards are not acontextual.
As you say. However, they are 'future proof'.


It's not a safe world for wearing one's heart on one's sleeve. Why anybody would want to share their feelings with the same bandwidth as the knives of SOLO....


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Post 34

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 7:41amSanction this postReply
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Rick said:

same bandwidth as the knives of SOLO

hmmmmm

Contempt is, from time to time, a good call.
Yep. Hey Rick.....Fuck You :-)

Ethan

 


Post 35

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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Rick,

"It's not a safe world for wearing one's heart on one's sleeve. Why anybody would want to share their feelings with the same bandwidth as the knives of SOLO...."

No harm done in expressing your thoughts. Perhaps differences can be worked out to mutual benefit if they are expressed. Impossible if not. Nothing lost in the attempt. I apologize for the "uber" objectivist remark. It was not well thought out with respect to yourself.

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Post 36

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:25amSanction this postReply
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Rick,
Why anybody would want to share their feelings with the same bandwidth as the knives of SOLO....
I'm going to be frank with you.

Is part of your "feelings you wish to share" to come barging in criticizing everybody left and right? And not even making any sense doing it?

If you want to dish it out, you gotta take it here, dude.

I have looked over your other posts and, quite frankly, many parts are so obscure that I can't make heads or tails of them.

Even in the present thread, nobody, except you, has claimed that tragic beauty even exists. Who are you arguing against?

Wanna share some of your feelings about that with us? I wouldn't mind talking to you if I could understand you.

Michael


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Post 37

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:31amSanction this postReply
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"It's not a safe world for wearing one's heart on one's sleeve. Why anybody would want to share their feelings with the same bandwidth as the knives of SOLO...."
Now there's a thinker.... Being a kat, I'm lucky enough to have nine lives, a sense of humor and a very lovable master. I have survived some pretty direct attacks, hissing, opinion polls, graphics, dedicated threads, bad jokes and almost losing a boob.  And, yes, I have gone on strike, too.

But I always seem to bounce back.  I have made some wonderful friends, learned so much, and found my soul mate here. In my view Solo is a great place despite the knives.  So allow me to extend my own personal welcome to you and invite you into the infamous kitchen where everyone is posting their ledgers and lists on the refrigerator. 


Post 38

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 4:17amSanction this postReply
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I'm overwhelmed, thanks all of you. For my part I don't mean to be unfriendly, far from it. Especially not to Barbara Branden.

To MSK, I'm proud of my chronic lateral-thinking and my condensed form of expression. If I seem meaningless please be patient, it's just that I've passed over something that I conceive of as being utterly obvious to everybody- and when I tell you what it is you'll realise it's obvious too. My trouble is that my brain can never tell when something 'obvious to everyone' isn't obvious to everyone. You gotta tell me.

Cheers for the invite to kitchen, I'll know where to go if I get hungry.


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Post 39

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:33amSanction this postReply
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Rick,

I am so glad you have good humor. That shows the start of a thick skin, which is a good thing to have around here. But you seem to miss the point on a few issues - and please accept this in the benevolent sense, not the put-down one-upmanship sense. You look intelligent, so let's go at it:
If I seem meaningless please be patient, it's just that I've passed over something that I conceive of as being utterly obvious to everybody- and when I tell you what it is you'll realise it's obvious too.
Do I understand this to mean that in the depths of your spiritual-rational ruminations, you have discovered IT and wish to bring forth and enlighten people like Barbara the "obvious" wisdom that she has obviously missed over the years? What does "passed over" mean anyway? And if it is so obvious, then maybe I have some catching up to do myself because I don't know what in blue blazes you are talking about here. I guess I will just have to wait until you can verbalize all this obviousness. You seem to have missed a pretty obvious point that if you can't communicate it, it ain't obvious.

Thank you for the e-mail. With your permission, here is an excerpt:
If these comments escaped your attention that's your fault. If you cannot understand my resonse to them it's mine.

Please respond to this, if you need to, back in the thread. I just thought this would settle the matter and allow you to save face.

to see it written down so beautifully is very powerful
Thank you, Barbara, for making me a little happier today. :-)
Beautiful Barbara, thanks.
That  was really a two hanky story.
This is the most moving piece I've ever read on SOLO
That was a very moving and timely statement
I too am touched by Barbara's story
I've rarely read such a moving piece of writing
Here is the point you missed in arguing against "tragic beauty" and calling people's sentiments shameful. I don't think any one of those posters, especially not Barbara, found any beauty in her predicament in itself (the tragedy). It was a horrible situation. The real beauty was in her reaction to it, her ability to judge a thorny issue in the middle of all that emotional turmoil and loss and preserve value as she understood it and held it. She is quite a woman, Rick. You would do well to look at her from the Socratic command of tabula rasa, "I only know that I do not know," when assimilating the facts of her life. Then you will be able to later judge whose position is "shameful" and all the rest that you are so impatient to get out.

If you do that, you will be tremendously rewarded. The  history of Barbara's life in itself, in addition to her writings, is extremely inspiring. I have stated on other occasions and I will state here, she is one of my real-life heroines.

There is another point you miss - and I especially want to raise it because you seem to be young enough (and Lord Byron-ish enough in your writing style) to not turn into a Randroid. This is the subject of empathy. Randroids confuse empathy, which is a powerful emotion and part of our internal emotional wiring, with Altruism, which is an evil philosophy. These are two very different things. If you try to repress empathy (just like repress any powerful emotion), the price tag is always extremely high. Nathaniel Branden has a wonderful body of literature on how to correctly manage and come to terms with emotions.

Part of the sentiments you found so "shameful" in the posters was nothing more than empathizing with Barbara's plight over losing her mother and the heroic inner conflict she faced with her own values.

This episode is profoundly touching. When I first read it, I had the underlying feeling that I am so glad to be a part of this world, despite such tragic moments, where people like Barbara can be in it. I want to be like them.

As to your concern for me saving face,

LOLOLOLOLOL...

Thanks for the belly-laugh. Stick around a while, dude. That is a point you missed all the way down to the axiomatic concept level.

And for the final point missed:
Cheers for the invite to kitchen, I'll know where to go if I get hungry.
But then you were joking, weren't you? (Please say you were, because if not, I just wasted a whole lot of typing!)

So now, after all this talk about missing points, something positive. You actually do have an effusiveness and extroverted communicative style I find very attractive - especially around here. But it's like a wild horse - you gotta tame it or you can't ride it. But if you can tame it, then that will be one beautiful horse to ride. Good luck to you. I mean it. I look forward to watching what happens.

Michael


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