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Monday, March 14, 2005 - 1:36amSanction this postReply
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Very nicely done--I am rather inclined to rub Nick Gillespie's and Cathy Young's noses in this! Hope you forward a copy to them.

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Monday, March 14, 2005 - 1:55amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the article -- enjoyable and informative.

I'll add this: There is a certain element in every group that wants to tie its philosophy with the creator of that philsophy. Objectivists have a particularly strong element of this sort.

These people might claim to be and seem to be Objectivism's most ardent supporters -- in suggesting that Objectivism be tied to Rand, they have taken a strong stance. But by defending it on wrong terms, they have opened up the door to criticism based on those wrong terms.

And because of this, we cannot put the critics in their place with the same consistency, rationality, and legitimacy as we could if these bold defenders were not so bold to begin with.

Garin


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Monday, March 14, 2005 - 6:41amSanction this postReply
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Excellent Andrew!  I particularly like the ending you crafted - passionately concise and stirring.

Jason


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Post 3

Monday, March 14, 2005 - 6:49amSanction this postReply
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Fine piece, Andrew, and you're absolutely right. Thank you for this.

When both Ayn Rand's indiscriminate admirers and her implacable foes insist on linking the merits of her philosophy to her personal reputation, it becomes impossible for them to be credible about either. Her blind idolaters are driven either to rewrite history in order to whitewash her errors, or to rewrite Objectivism in order to accomodate them. This plays right into the malicious agenda of her equally blind detractors who, wishing to evade her ideas, can then simply dismiss Objectivism by reference to cheap ad hominem attacks on the philosophy's author.

The time is long past for us to segregate Rand's biography from her philosophy. If we do that, what we will discover is a great thinker and brilliant artist, a magnificently noble but occasionally flawed woman -- and a revolutionary body of ideas of such profound merit that they may one day change the world.



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Monday, March 14, 2005 - 6:56amSanction this postReply
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Very well done, Andrew. Loved the last paragraph!

John

Post 5

Monday, March 14, 2005 - 7:40amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for a wonderful article, Andrew.

I wonder if it seems so easy for people to condemn Rand for her personal life because it was lived so recently. Will she need to be gone for a hundred years, and her immediate students gone too, before she will be legitimized?

I hope not.

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Monday, March 14, 2005 - 8:39amSanction this postReply
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Rand clearly forgave Victor Hugo’s rampant womanizing, despite having said:

 

[A man of unbreached self-esteem] is incapable of experiencing a sexual desire divorced from spiritual values. (“Of Living Death”)

 

and

 

Only the man who extols the purity of a love devoid of desire, is capable of the depravity of a desire devoid of love. (“The Meaning of Sex”)

 


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Post 7

Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:42amSanction this postReply
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Oh, how I love it when the bedsheet of hypocrisy is torn off like that! Great Andrew!

You know, I always wonder about the constant detractors of Ayn Rand's shortcomings on both sides, friend and foe, while they pontificate on how obvious it all is. You think maybe they have a recipe for living without making mistakes? And I really wonder how their own lives - the parts hidden from public scrutiny - would bear up.

If they insist on harping on and on about Ms. Rand's warts, harping on them a little would only be fair.

Robert - "The time is long past for us to segregate Rand's biography from her philosophy."

Full and total agreement. Also, I can't resist a silent thank you to Barbara for her magnificent and efficacious work on taking this hypocrisy out of Objectivism.

Michael


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Monday, March 14, 2005 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew,

Thanks for the great article!

It seems to me that practically the only ethic still 'alive' in modern discourse is vilification of hypocrisy. Conservatives get attacked whenever they do anything in apparent contradiction to their avowed beliefs (Limbaugh's drug problem comes to mind). Nihilists and the everything-is-relative crowd insulate themselves form these kinds of attacks by their lack of principles.

I also found Stephen Hick's arguments in "Explaining Post-Modernism" interesting --- he says that sometimes the rhetoric we hear these days is meant purely as a tactical maneuver and isn't even believed by the people saying it. In this case, people who attack Rand for her personal life don't even care about it or believe that this is a logical point --- they just do it for the effect it has on others.


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Post 9

Monday, March 14, 2005 - 4:09pmSanction this postReply
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I think the reason Rand's personal life is an issue is for three reasons:

1.  As Jennifer notes, she lived more recently.

2.  Rand claimed to be a fully integrated person whose reason was consistent with her emotions.  The idea that a younger man might remain attracted to her regardless of her age is a good rational argument, but doesn't have much to do with emotions.

3.  It makes it look like Rand's appeal to selfishness was just that.  In other words, if it feels good, do it.

I'm not saying that these are good arguments contra Rand.


Post 10

Monday, March 14, 2005 - 4:16pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent article, Andrew. Please do send it around where it may do some good.

Barbara

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Post 11

Monday, March 14, 2005 - 5:48pmSanction this postReply
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Actually, I disagree with this claim: "The idea that a younger man might remain attracted to her regardless of her age is a good rational argument, but doesn't have much to do with emotions." It is not a good rational argument--it's wishful thinking, especially for someone who has called herself an Individualist even before an Objectivist. Those aspects of a person that make him or her the individual he or she is--who he or she is--include many non-rational, idiosyncratic factors and they can be highly relevant to who will be a good match for that person. We fall in and/or remain in love because of many factors among which these individual elements are no less crucial than are such more general factors as the person's moral character, intelligence, and so forth. Thus to claim that age should not matter is wrong--for some that may be so, for others not so. It is usually a collage of factors that leads to two people being a romantic match, and these can gradually change so much that the love will slowly vanish, although they need not in many cases. (I have been in May-December relationships and wasn't surprised--albeit very hurt--when they ended, through no fault of anyone.) 


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Post 12

Monday, March 14, 2005 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with you, Tibor. And with trepidation of going off-topic, I want to add some things.

Too often I run into Objectivists who are looking for some generic storybook figure, some walking collection of abstract virtues and principles, some Dagny or Rearden or Roark, etc. I often smile to myself, knowing full well that if they did encounter such an entity, they probably wouldn't be able to stand being around them for more than an hour.

The reason is that we are not just collections of generic, abstract philosophical premises. We are not floating brains, and our bodies aren't just carrying cases for them. We are, each of us, something very unique and specific, and both mind and body. In both of those aspects, we are also individuated. We are not generic abstractions; we are concrete particulars, with many unique characteristics. When we define man as "a rational animal" we tend to focus on the adjective, not the noun, and the genus "man," not the specific "me."

Finding someone generically "good" or even "great" is not sufficient grounds for a particular attraction. The question is: good or great for whom? Moral character is important, but not enough. Intelligence is important, but not enough. Beauty is a plus, not enough, perhaps not even necessary. In fact, being all-around "wonderful" is not enough. I've met any number of wonderful women. I've been involved with several. But I've found very few wonderful women are wonderful for me.
 
Moral character and intelligence define only the initial boundary lines of possible personal interaction. They circumscribe the "set" of possible candidates for friendship or romance. But that's just the beginning.

This is a lesson most people who've done "computer dating" learn quickly. Frequently you run across some "profile" that sounds perfect...on paper (or on the screen). The photo image, plus the list of qualities, interests, values and virtues, are compelling. And sometimes when you meet that person, you find that he or she wasn't at all deceptive in their self-description. You have to acknowledge that on all those Big Things they are truly admirable.

But then you discover that all the "little things" you never even thought of are constant nagging sources of friction. We say "the chemistry wasn't right."

And what are the "chemical" ingredients? Lots of things.

Do you share the same temperament and moods? Are you an indoor or outdoor person? A day or night person? Optimist or pessimist? Is your mental style abstract or concrete or metaphorical? Are you quiet or verbal? Do you both like the same kinds of music? What kind of energy level do you both have? Are you fastidiously neat, or relaxed and casual? Do you share the same sense of humor? Are you both tactile and physically demonstrative, or physically withdrawn? Do you like to verbalize everything, or leave a lot to unspoken implications? Etc., etc.

If you think such matters are petty and unimportant, try to live around someone who doesn't mesh with you on a number of those levels. And to "mesh" may not even mean to be alike: sometimes differences can complement rather than be points of friction.

On the plus side, sometimes the "particulars" can line up so well and create so powerful an attraction that even supposed Big Things -- such as explicit philosophical agreement -- seem to fade to insignificance. We are, after all, looking for romantic partners, not debating partners.

All of which is to say that relationships are built on a host of individuating, not just generic qualities. Think of gears meshing, or of the right key for the right lock.

And don't bother writing up a list of such particulars. As we evolve in life, the priorities we place on those things are always shifting and changing.  

What's the relevance of all this here? Well, we were discussing the relevance of Rand's personal life; and our answer has to be based on the fact that we haven't a clue what two people really see in each other. I suppose one moral implication is that we should cut people a lot of slack about their particular romantic choices, and not bother to draw weighty philosophical or psychological inferences about them for their selections. Because attractions are so particular and unique, its virtually impossible to know the answer to the question, "What in the world does she/he see in her/him?" All we can know is that the partners must have touched each other on a profoundly personal, individual level that even the participants may not fully understand.


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Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:08pmSanction this postReply
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That's very well said Robert,

I'd also like to echo what so many others have said here, I think your contribution to this site has been excellent. Even when you say things I would disagree with, they are often well thought out and said to make me think.

Post 14

Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 5:15amSanction this postReply
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Thank you, Shane.

BTW, I envy you your first name. It was always my favorite Western novel.


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Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew: “On the contrary: the personal peccadilloes, quirks, and failings I have listed here should have been (and are) dismissed as irrelevant to the task of understanding these philosophers and scholars. So why can’t academics (and indeed, many Objectivists) do the same for Ayn Rand?”

Well, personal peccadilloes are very relevant to understanding philosophers and scholars as people. I think you mean that character traits should not be used to dismiss someone’s ideas, since to do so would be to commit an ad hominen. This is a fair point. Anyone who dismisses Rand’s ideas solely on account of her personal failings would also be guilty of that fallacy.

However, one is quite justified in investigating any claim made by a thinker. If Rousseau et al had claimed that their personal lives were a faithful reflection of their ideas, those claims could be investigated. Similarly with Ayn Rand.

In the postscript to my copy of Atlas Shrugged there is a personal message from the author. The first para reads: “My personal life is a postscript to my novels; it consists of the sentence: ‘And I mean it.’ I have always lived by the philosophy I present in my books – and it has worked for me, as it works for my characters.”

What Rand is saying here is that it is possible to live by her philosophy, and her life provides the evidence. Is that a philosophical claim? I think it is, and it can be investigated without resorting to the ad hominen. In fact, on this very forum this claim has been the basis of fruitful speculation on some important matters, such as whether honesty exonerates other moral failings, or whether rights can be violated in the absence of force.

No doubt Rand was naive or foolish to present herself as an exemplar of her moral theory, but I guess it’s almost unavoidable where a thinker places the ego at the centre of her ethics.

Brendan


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Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 1:46pmSanction this postReply
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No doubt Rand was naive or foolish to present herself as an exemplar of her moral theory, but I guess it’s almost unavoidable where a thinker places the ego at the centre of her ethics.

Brendan, you had my agreement until the above statement.  If you don't think it's possible to live by a philosophy, e.g. Objectivism, and consider the belief that one can to be "naive" or "foolish" - then what is the point of studying it? Of being a part of an online community of people who attempt to apply it to their lives for their own benefit? Of evening considering the subject at all?  I don't understand how to jive the fact that you're here on solohq with the statement you've made.

I agree that Rand's statement that she had always lived by her philosophy opened her up to examination of the truth of that claim.  I also agree with the sentiments Andrew has expressed in his article. 

Jason


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Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan wrote:
>>No doubt Rand was naive or foolish to present herself as an exemplar of her moral theory

Jason replied:
>Brendan, you had my agreement until the above statement.  If you don't think it's possible to live by a philosophy, e.g. Objectivism, and consider the belief that one can to be "naive" or "foolish" - then what is the point of studying it?

Hi Jason,

Brendan said "exemplar" - as in being an ideal example of it, rather than just someone who was attempting to apply it. And certainly this is what Rand meant. She even directly compares herself to the ideal characters of her novels:

"I have always lived by the philosophy I present in my books – and it has worked for me, as it works for my characters."

The gap between studying and applying a philosophy and claiming to be the very personification of it is considerable, and this is his point.

- Daniel




Post 18

Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 7:37pmSanction this postReply
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My thanks for all the compliments, and for the fine posts and contributions, by Tibor and Robert in particular.

In regard to Brendan and Daniel's points, I think of "understanding Rand," "understanding Rousseau," "understanding Nietzsche," etc., as being solely a matter of having read and understood the ideas of these thinkers. I phrased my article accordingly.

Now, this is not to say I'm a fan of mind-body dichotomies, or that I believe we can simply brush aside Ayn Rand's claim that she lived as an exemplar of Objectivist philosophy. In fact, on a fair examination of that claim, I must conclude that she really was an exemplar of Objectivism.

Far too many Objectivists simply roll over and meekly accept these claims that somehow, Ayn Rand lived a bad life. I would die a happy man knowing I had accomplished a tenth of what Ayn Rand accomplished. When I look at her, I see a life filled with what she called, "the total passion for the total height," the sense-of-life term that has become SOLO's motto. Yes, Ayn Rand made some mistakes. So did Dagny Taggart. I'm not about to eject her from the pantheon of Objectivist heroes for them.


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Post 19

Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 3:26amSanction this postReply
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Andrew,

You are right in your article and your post. Your points are saliently made, and I especially love your mention of Rousseau. Wouldn't it be fun if his personal life was mentioned in every article about him. (Hey Jean, got any stipulations for alimony in that social contract?)

Unfortunately, however, I do believe this preoccupation with Rand's personal life is inevitable for a number of obvious reasons. (You simply can't expect a public figure and her disciples to claim that she lived an essentially perfect life, and get away with it!) It will be, as Jennifer said, a matter of time before her ideas distinctly supercede the details of her personal life in the culture's attention -- but that time certainly will come. Probably after a few more generations. And yes, it is still frustrating to see her fellow-travellers getting so consistently sidetracked by the less important stuff.

As for the importance of her life, I think it all comes down to context. In an analytical and historical context, her personal life is very important as a subject for study, because she was a genius. But from a personal standpoint, I think her life-mistakes are so obvious that they do not warrant much attention -- it doesn't take much to see how and why they were wrong. Much tougher is following in the footsteps of her enormous accomplishments, which are and always will be the truly monumental aspect of Ayn Rand.

Alec   


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