RoR: Forum

I have heard that the .50-calibre Desert Eagle does, shall we say, "not so pretty" things to pumpkins.

Post 21

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 1:01pm

Sadly, here in NZ, there is no right to bear arms, and indeed, self-defense here is virtually a crime (see my article "The Crime Of Self-Defense" in the latest Free Radical, plug plug plug).

Because we can't legally carry firearms, I'm investigating a nice folding knife from Columbia River.

Honestly officer, it's just a pocket knife.

:-)

Post 22

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 1:26pm

I will defer to Bill's knowledge of civilian law enforcement, since I have little to no experience there. My experience is based on military urban warfare, where we are trained to double tap at bad guys at close range with 9 mm pistols and 9 mm submachine guns. He is right that there is a trade-off either way, and the best firearm depends on both the person and the situation.

Post 23

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 1:31pm

Danny,

I have a photograph of what a .50 calibre round can do to the head of an Iraqi suicide bomber, if you are interested in seeing. It is not for the faint of heart.

Post 24

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 2:53pm

The best weapon for self defense is the one with which you are most accurate - all other factors are secondary.

The 9mm cartridge in combination with the simplest possible delivery system (Glock) is far and away superior to the .40 s&w for the typical gun owner (95% of the time) - it's not even close. The typical gun owner will practice with his weapon very rarely (lots in the begining, very little as the years go by). As such, factors such as recoil (percieved or actual) are paramount - all the stopping power in the world is of no use if you cannot hit your target.

Secondly, the so-called superior stopping power of the .40 round is true on average, but absolutely negligible when 9mm + P ammo is being used. In virtually every statistical test shown, a hollow point 9mm round that exceeds 1300 feet per second (as with most +P ammo) in velocity is unmatched by any criteria by any .40 round. In spite of the +P designation, these rounds still have noticeably less recoil than the typical .40 round. In these cases the statistics will show the 9mm round being completely on par with .40 in stopping power - with an even higher kill ratio. Most perps buy the cheapest ammo sold, with a high percentage of ball ammo, in this case the .40 is superior. Gunfight statistics are inaccurate as a whole due to this.

The statistics that bare out the 9mm as superior are those that compare the best 9mm ammo to the best .40 ammo - in these cases the 9mm has the edge the majority of the time. Most police departments have gone away from .40, and are once again recommending 9mm as the round of choice. The reasons: the lower recoil is conducive to smaller officers and lends itself to less hand fatigue during practice and smaller dimensions of the firearm allow for more ergonomic grips for users of all sizes.. These elements result in a higher degree of accuracy and a greater degree of probability that the gun owner will actually practice with his weapon.

The .40 s&w was supposed to be the ultimate 'compromise round', affording less recoil than the stouter .45 acp, but with greater stopping power than the 9-mm. In most respects the round fails to measurably offer a significant advantage over either of these rounds in it's compromise role. There are higher velocity .40 rounds that are made, but they completely defeat the purpose of a 'compromise' round in the first place. Also, the typical .40 firearm does not lend itself to concealed carry as well as 9mm do, this factor alone is huge.

Pound for pound, the 9mm has proven itself to be the best all-around round for typical carry and defense usage. The true newcomer to the scene is the new '357 Sig' round that reaches +p 9mm velocities along with a greater overall stoppin power, thus far however the round has been confined to the role of novelty round. If you tend to be a very large man, with large hands, and that practices often: then a .45 Glock would not be a bad choice. For all others 9mm is the best option for autos.

And for the absolute gun novice that just wants to 'put it away' in the closet for emergency use only, with little to no practice : pass on the autos and buy a revolver - .38 special for most or 357 magnum for larger folks.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 2/08, 3:05pm)

Post 25

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 3:11pm

Byron,

I can't imagine that a human head could even vaguely be called a head, after it has felt the sweet, sweet love of a .50 calibre round.

Post 26

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 3:22pm

The .50 Desert Eagle is a piece of trash. Wonderful for Hollywood movies, but near useless in real life. The recoil is greater than a 44 magnums and takes you off your sight alignment, the muzzle flash is blinding even in day light, the rounds jam with a high degree of frequency, and the weapon weighs a ton.

Unless the criteria is shooting a 350 lb man through a 3 inch wood door, even the vaunted 'Dirty Harry' .44 magnum is greatly inferior in all respects to a .357 magnum for defense use against human beings.

George

Post 27

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 3:24pm

Danny,

You could say that the Iraqi insurgent's head was half the head it used to be. Literally. I am not man enough for the .50, but it is beautiful in the hands of an artist, especially when that artist is beside you providing covering fire.

Post 28

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 3:29pm

George,

Were you by any chance an armorer when you were in the service? Or is it just the redneck in you? And I mean redneck with nothing but the deepest respect. In my experience, there are no better trigger pullers than rednecks.

Post 29

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 3:39pm

Were you by any chance an armorer when you were in the service? Or is it just the redneck in you? And I mean redneck with nothing but the deepest respect.

ROFL - no I was not an armorer, but you have no idea how funny the 'redneck' comment is to me - for more reasons than you can imagine.

In my experience, there are no better trigger pullers than rednecks.

That's true.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 2/08, 3:42pm)

Post 30

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 10:24pm

George wrote:

With the possible exception of Sig Sauer, Glock is unmatched as an all-purpose handgun. The average Sig will run you 700 to 900 bucks, the average Glock 400 to 600 bucks, depending on accessories and modifications.

As it happens, I got myself a Sig Sauer P229 9mm about a year and a half ago. It is, by far, the best handgun I've had the pleasure of firing. They are a tad more expensive than a normal handgun, but the quality and experience is well-worth a few hundred extra bucks. I went with a 9mm because it's what I'm used to, though I must say that when I fired my brother-in-law's P229 .40 cal I noticed little in the way of decreased accuracy and actually found the extra punch against my arms sort of reassuring. I don't know how they did it, but Sig seems to have perfected the art of smooth, steady action in handguns. : P

Post 31

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 12:37am

George, Bill, Byron, Jeremy:

Thanks for all the interesting tips and discussion. This should help me make a bit more informed purchase when I do finally give in and buy a handgun.

Post 32

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 12:49pm

Jeremy,

I was thinking of buying the 9 mm Sig, actually. I have heard nothing but good things about it, and the ringing endorsements here help.

Duncan,

I don't know what knife laws are in New Zealand, but I do have a recommendation for a knife: the SOG SEAL Pup. It is a more compact version of the knife the Navy SEAL Teams are issued, the SOG SEAL Knife (which you can get too but that bad boy can be too big to conceal). The SEAL Pup is a fixed blade, so if you prefer a folding blade there is the SOG Trident, based off the SEAL knives. I am issued the Kabar by the Marines, but I'd take the SOG over the Kabar any day. Their web site is:

http://www.sogknives.com/

I train with the Filipino balisong (or butterfly knife as they call it in America), a great martial arts knife that is not difficult to conceal, but I cannot recommend a specific company.

Post 33

Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 2:09pm

Byron,

Thank you for your advice; I am currently investigating training options w.r.t. learning how to use the knife once I have it. For some reason, civilian knife-fighting schools are thin on the ground in New Zealand :-)

I'll certainly check out the knives you suggested. I've been having no end of trouble getting anything approximating decent customer service from either Columbia River or King of Knives, their New Zealand reseller.

Post 34

Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 2:38pm

George,

Please write an article in praise of 9mm chambering. I haven�t seen that kind of enthusiasm for a topic of arms since Ralphy�s Red Rider theme in A Chistmas Story!

Seriously, though, I think you are right about the 9mm. Being a very popular caliber, the big stores (Wal-Mart, K-Mart) in the eighties and nineties sold a lot of boxes of 9mm. Bill�s stats are correct, but they are a function of gang-bangers buying those cheap, easy to obtain, full-metal-jacketed rounds intended for the range (shooting sideways is a big life-saver, too.) Chambered with a proper self-defensive round�hollow pointed, engineered to mushroom into a large shape, extra powder�the 9mm is perfectly suited.

Jon

Post 35

Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 4:08pm

Duncan,

You may have some difficulty finding a school that specifically teaches knife fighting, but there are martial arts systems that emphasizes fighting with weapons. The Filipino Martial Arts, such as Kali, Arnis, or Eskrima, come to mind, and I can tell you from first-hand experience that the training is realistic, practical, and effective, unlike many so-called classical martial arts (e.g. karate, tae kwon do).

Post 36

Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 4:17pm

Byron,

Thanks for the insider info :-) I'll certainly investigate the Filipino martial arts, *if* I can find any in Auckland (same old story).

My (limited) experience with martial arts like Wing Tsun and Aikido is that the amount of time I'd have to invest in study and practice isn't acceptable for what I want out of them: simple armed and unarmed self-defense.

I'm not knocking the incredible skill displayed by people who have studied the martial arts for years, or the incredible level of devotion required to excel in them, I'm merely saying that it's not really for me - what I want is a practical self-defense system that can be learned & practised quickly and easily, e.g. Krav Maga.

However, there is no Krav Maga school in Auckland.

Post 37

Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 4:21pm

The true measure of round performance is known as 'the one shot stop' (Guns & Ammo). This is when you are able to completelly stop an attack (the round causes death or total incapacitation) - having fired a single round into the upper torso of a person measured 8 inches around from a center point that begins 1 to 2 inches above the sternum. Two types of data exist that are used to quantify the effectiveness of rounds for this scenario: actual street encounters that meet this criteria, and controled test studies that have been conducted on large game animals such as deer or elk.

Of the two, the better measure is actually the latter. The reason is simple: you are able to measure an enormous number of calibers against other calibers using rounds of the same type ; ie apples to apples as oppossed to apples to oranges. Ball ammo vs ball ammo, low velocity vs low, high velocity vs high, heaver grains vs heavier grains within caliber types ect... In every single test study that I have ever encountered using either data, a 9mm 115 grain hollow point at +P velocities has a 'one shot stop' ratio in the upper 90s. Rounds of these specs made by Cor-Bon or Federal rate the absolute highest. In second place came the 230 grain Federal Hydro-shock in .45acp, scoring in the upper 80s. In last place among the big 3 of popular auto calibers came the .40s&w in the mid 80s.

The reality is that the .40 round was a gimmick by the Gun Manufancureres in the early 90s to revive sales and launch an entire new line of guns. Since then the .40 has taken its place as mainstay among handguns. However, it has recently begun to decline in sales.

The bottom line is this, the .40 round is a perfectly good round and it outperforms 38 special rounds by a great margin, and is far easier to control than 357 magnum - but against 9mm or 45acp - it comes up slightly short. Having said all that, if you are a good shot and can hit center mass under pressure, I don't give damn which of the big 3 your using, his ass is grassed.

In case your wondering - the #1 rated 'one shot stop' round of all time is the Federal 125 grain HP .357 magnum round - 96%. It is the ultimate man killer. Unfortunately, it's a revolver round (6 shots max) and kicks like hell.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 2/10, 6:48pm)

Post 38

Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 4:33pm

Byron,

Filipino stick fighting is a joy to watch. Poetry in motion. A stick doesn't look as impressive as a knife, but in the hands of someone who knows what they're about, very effective.
I agree about the effectiveness of the Filipino fighting arts.

Post 39

Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 4:59pm