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Post 0

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 1:23amSanction this postReply
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Well done, George.

“You are not likely to see a 2-hour special on HBO that chronicles the personal stories of people who used handguns to save their own lives or that of loved ones.”

Excellent point. Defensive uses of guns vastly outnumber criminal uses.

“These so-called single-issue lobbyists carry with them the baggage of a political package deal that acts to subvert the core issue for which it supposedly exists.”

Fair comment. I have little problem with the ACLU focusing on the 1st Amendment, the NRA on the 2nd. The package dealing is an error, and is someone’s fault, but not the fault, as I can see, of those groups. For example, the NRA has been going crazy about McCain-Feingold.

Anyway, my compliments. I’ll be reading it again when it’s not two in the morning, and I will post again.

Jon

Post 1

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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George writes:

One method has been the claim that that the 2nd Amendment only applied to ‘well regulated militias’ and that today’s National Guard units represent a citizens' militia; this argument is so easily refuted, that the majority of high profile gun-control advocates avoid it themselves.
Here is the exact verbiage of the Second Ammendment:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

What exactly is a good refutation of the National Guard argument?  I don't disagree with your article and position on the gun issue; I've simply been looking for a good counter argument on this point.  The second ammendment says nothing about the self defense of individuals, and that is a fact. 


Post 2

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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Pete,

In the time it was written, “Militia” meant farmers dropping what they were doing, taking their guns and meeting somewhere to make a plan. The movie The Patriot with Mel Gibson is a good example of this. So having an effective militia meant to them precisely the need for households, individual men, to be armed.

Imagine if an amendment read:
‘A good water supply, being essential to the health of a farming village, the right of the people to drill wells, shall not be infringed.’ If the intended meaning were that only the village council might own wells, it would say that. But it says “the right of the people…”

Note that the Bill of Rights is peppered with the phrase “the people” and no one has ever argued the meaning. Article IV: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures…”

Note also that the entire Bill of Rights is about the rights of the individual, no state powers are enumerated, only limits on the state and rights for the people. The second one as exception would be quite out of place.

Jon


Post 3

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 11:36amSanction this postReply
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Jon, I agree with your assessment of the context of the word 'militia' during that time period.  I think the Founders were following a line of argument something like this: a government will be far less likely to induce tyranny upon an armed citizenry.  Thus, the citizens' right to bear arms is a check against the government's power; it gives "the people" the ability to prevent (or if necessary overthrow) an oppressive government.

But I think context matters in this day and age.  Back in the 1700's, 'arms' referred to swords, muskets and perhaps cannons.  Modern technology has changed the situation. In order to successfully challenge the government today, you would need tanks, nuclear weapons, fighter jets etc.  I hope we can agree that there should be some limits on what private citizens can own.  I know that there are some anarcho-libertarians out there who suggest that private citizens should be allowed to posess nukes - call me a statist, but I would not want to live in such a world.

Personally, I believe that individual self defense should be the basis of gun rights in modern society.  A few months ago, I proposed a revision of the Second Ammendment that would be far less open to multiple interpretations and in keeping with the realities of our time.  Here it is again, I'm curious to see what you all think:

Private citizens shall have the right to keep and bear firearms as a reasonable measure of self defense, or for purposes of legal recreation.

(note the distinction of the term "firearms" as opposed to "arms")


Post 4

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 11:44amSanction this postReply
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Pete writes:
Private citizens shall have the right to keep and bear firearms as a reasonable measure of self defense, or for purposes of legal recreation.
...shall have...??? Such is the language of permissions not rights.

Post 5

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 12:07pmSanction this postReply
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Pete,

Good point about cannons. A friend of mine once complained about anti-gunners trying to limit what types of guns can be owned. He said, “Shit, according to the 2nd Amendment, we have the right to own cannons! A well-regulated militia today means at least howitzers!”

Your point that we need much more than just guns to effect a meaningful protection from tyranny is a good one. I agree with you, however—I don’t want to see powerful private armies. I’ll settle for just guns, back to the original meaning with no infringement to the right to arms (personal firearms.) As Rand pointed out, a gun in your pocket will not help you against tyranny, only better ideas will.

I don’t favor any language changes, just interpretation that is true.

Jon


Post 6

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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There is another dilemma that is rarely tackled by the pro-gun lobby.

It is the responsibility of government to step in when the gun-owner himself, or the weapons he owns pose an unreasonable threat to his innocent neighbours.

Let me give you an example:
I live (currently) in an apartment building with paper thin walls.
I have no problem with Farmer Bloggs owning a heavy machine gun (or hand grenades, tanks blah blah blah) for self defence. He owns a large farm and if he ever cut loose with the thing the bullets would fall to earth long before they left his property.

The same is not true if a neighbour of mine owned the same heavy machine gun... cutting loose with that would send bullets through his attacker, his walls, and my closet and into me. Understandably I have a large problem with becoming a collateral damage statistic.

Of course I would be placated if my neighbour decided to buy a hand-gun for home defence and only pulled out the 50 cal for special occasions at a place where it was safe to use. This - far more rational strategy - would signify that my neighbour wasn't a deranged gun nut with small-penis-complex and I would sleep easier at night.

I do not believe that the Anti-gun zealot's solution to this problem (ban 50 cal MGs) is a fair solution. But neither do I think that the Pro-gun zealot's solution (no government interference) is a fair solution either.

My point is this.
(1) Everybody has a right to the means to defend themselves. (Note that I am interpreting "firearms" in the 2nd Amendment to cover ALL weapons - why shouldn't it?)
(2) The government exists to step in when one person poses a threat to another.

There will be times when these two rights conflict with somebody else’s right to life. In that the possession of a particular weapon (hand-gun, howitzer, battleship, B2 etc. etc.) by a particular person in a place poses a risk to other innocent parties. And the 2nd Amendment as written does not reconcile this fact. 

How should it be reconciled?

You need a system of law that allows someone to petition the government when they have proof positive that a gun/tank/battle cruiser owner poses an objective threat to your safety or your property. A hearing eschews where both sides put their case before an objective judge and he decides whether the petition has merit or not. If it doesn't the complainant pays for wasting everybody’s time. If it does the government takes action against the gun owner, stripping him only of those weapons which pose an unreasonable threat.

The judge will be guided by principles of law established by precedents that would slowly build up (and presumably be applicable whatever technology brings to the table), instead of being hamstrung by statutes like the Brady Bill.
In other words you need to repair to common law to settle dilemmas like this. That and to change the 2nd Amendment so that a persons right to own weapons can be moderated by the government if that combination of weapon & person are a threat to others.

PS please don’t credit me for this argument – the ideas weren’t mine… I will take responsibility for any flaws you can find because I am looking for the best, most rational solution to the hypothetical I posed above. 

PPS: I am an ex-gun owner. I had to sell them when I came to the USA - the .22, the .303 and the 12 gauge wouldn't fit into my suitcase... :-)

(Edited by Robert Winefield on 2/06, 12:17pm)


Post 7

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 12:48pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I always assumed that the framers intended such issues to be resolved in court, if not by common sense. E.g. your neighbour buys an RPG for 'home defense', you take him to court to prevent him doing that, because if he ever cut loose with it, he'd most likely kill you. In other words, he's providing an objective, significant risk to your life - he's criminally endangering you.


Post 8

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 2:15pmSanction this postReply
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George,

Thank you for a brilliant, insightful article. Especially on the counterproductive effect of package-dealing.

Robert,

In a free society, the developer of an apartment house, or of a suburban subdivision, would naturally seek to increase the value of what he is selling with a restrictive covenant of purchase, through which the buyer would undertake not to put his neighbors at risk. Such covenants, and other voluntary provisions of social self-organization, would deal with risk (and other quality-of-life issues) without arbitrary legislation. The government would be involved only in enforcement of such voluntary agreements, and would not be involved in setting their terms.

Post 9

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
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Duncan,

I'm sure you are correct - this is actually the situation I am advocating in a over bloated way. Unfortunately the intentions of those who framed the constitution are up for debate.

Adam you wrote:
"In a free society, the developer of an apartment house, or of a suburban subdivision, would naturally seek to increase the value of what he is selling with a restrictive covenant of purchase, through which the buyer would undertake not to put his neighbors at risk. The government would be involved only in enforcement of such voluntary agreements, and would not be involved in setting their terms"

True, if a covenant existed you would just sue the offender for breach of contract - end of problem. Or is it? As written the 2nd Ammendment may trump the covenant because "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" doesn't leave much wiggle room.

And what about people who don't live in places covered by such a covenant? Surely they must have some recourse to the law - should they not? They are in a sort of conflict with their machine-gun-owning neighbour and doesn't the government exist to act as an objective arbitrator in these circumstances? Surely it can't be a case of "sorry pal you didn't read the fine print, it's perfectly legal for your neighbour to construct bombs in his basement. Don't worry, he's pretty good at it he still has six fingers." Isn't this a case of Caviet Emptor being taken a shade too far?

All that I am suggesting is that the 2nd Ammendment should be adjusted to make it clear that the right to bare arms is limited by context of where you live, what your mental state is and the characteristics of the weapon (nuke, cluster bomb, sling shot etc.). And that the limitations are there so that your right to firearms doesn't infringe on another person's right to Life, Liberty etc. The actual boundaries that delimit what weapons you can keep and use (which will change with technology) shoul be worked out in each individual case before a judge who is guided by this principle.  

Here is a canned example:
Obviously if I am the sole owner of the planet Pluto - I can own and use H-Bombs to my hearts content. I'm threatening nobody because the nearest intelligent life-form is several years journey away by space craft. The same cannot apply to my Penthouse apartment in downtown New York...

And no I'm not being flippant, as Pete says (Post 3), there are "some anarcho-libertarians out there who suggest that private citizens should be allowed to posess nukes."

How should an objectivist answer this without sounding like a statist?

I guess the key point is whether I am wrong in supposing that there can be times when these two principles (re pasted below) will be in conflict? Am I?

"(1) Everybody has a right to the means to defend themselves. (Note that I am interpreting "firearms" in the 2nd Amendment to cover ALL weapons - why shouldn't it?)
(2) The government exists to step in when one person poses a threat to another."

(Edited by Robert Winefield on 2/06, 3:27pm)

(Edited by Robert Winefield on 2/06, 3:29pm)


Post 10

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

First: voluntary agreements are implementations of individual human rights, not an infringement of rights. My right to own the wealth I create is not in conflict, with my right to part with some of it in payment for value received. My right to own a 50mm machine gun is not infringed when I voluntarily promise not to bring it into my apartment, as part of my trade contract with that apartment's previous owner.

Second: mechanisms to avert failures of contract, or to permit a coherent transition from the present regime to a free society, need not be specified in detail before identifying the principles to which such mechanisms will need to conform.

Post 11

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 7:09pmSanction this postReply
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Adam

"First: voluntary agreements are implementations of individual human rights, not an infringement of rights. My right to own the wealth I create is not in conflict, with my right to part with some of it in payment for value received. My right to own a 50mm machine gun is not infringed when I voluntarily promise not to bring it into my apartment, as part of my trade contract with that apartment's previous owner."

No disagreement there. I'm scratching my head as to why you would think there would be?

"Second: mechanisms to avert failures of contract, or to permit a coherent transition from the present regime to a free society, need not be specified in detail before identifying the principles to which such mechanisms will need to conform."

I thought I was trying to identify the principle to which such a mechanism would need to conform.
That is that the right to own weapons has limits that are dependent on individual circumstances (IMHO).
Which isn't the way the 2nd Amendment reads at the moment.

There six lines for my reply. Maybe that is where the wires are getting crossed...


Post 12

Monday, February 7, 2005 - 2:02amSanction this postReply
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Bravo! from a proud gun owner, George. Your point about the importance of high-profile gun crimes in the ongoing debate was right on. Good work.

Post 13

Monday, February 7, 2005 - 7:59amSanction this postReply
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I would like to thank all of you for your comments.

George

(Glock 19 9mm , Colt Gold Cup .45acp, S&W .38spl, Colt Python .357magnum)  : )


Post 14

Monday, February 7, 2005 - 4:24pmSanction this postReply
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Oooo! How do you like that Glock, George? I've been thinking about getting one for a long time now...

Andrew

(AK-47)

Post 15

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 6:06amSanction this postReply
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Andrew,

It shoots like a dream. Glock has 2 full size 9mm models the 17 & 19. The 19 has a shorter barrel and grip (15+1 magazine). The 17 is the standard model (17+1 magazine), about the size of Ber-92f or Sig Sauer P226. I prefer the 19 because the slightly smaller size allows it to be practical for both home defense and concealed carry.

The Glock has two claims to fame: simplicity and lightweight. The weapon is used identically like a revolver, just point and shoot. Every shot is identical, there is no first shot in double action followed by single action follow-ups - every trigger pull is 5 and half pounds. There are no levers, de-cockers, or safeties - nada: pure simplicity. The weapons frame is made of Polymer (a super hard plastic) that is near indestructible. Recoil is light and targeting the traditional 3-dot system. The weapon will devour any type of hollow point made without a hitch, unlike other autos that hang up on some types of ammo.

With the possible exception of Sig Sauer, Glock is unmatched as an all-purpose handgun. The average Sig will run you 700 to 900 bucks, the average Glock 400 to 600 bucks, depending on accessories and modifications. If there is one problem with the Glock it is 'appearance' - it is one butt ugly gun! Younger men may not agree, but those of us that grew up on Colts and Smiths find the Glock hideous.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 2/08, 6:07am)


Post 16

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 8:11amSanction this postReply
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I will have to second George's advice.  The Glock has the most bang for the buck (no pun intended), especially for newbies.  The value of simplicity cannot be underestimated (that's why I prefer the AK-74 to the M-16).  I myself have a Beretta 92 but that is for practice and sentimental value (I am issued an M9 which is similar to the Beretta 92).

(Edited by Byron Garcia on 2/08, 8:12am)


Post 17

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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Andrew,

I must dissent from George's suggestions.  The Glock Model 22 .40 caliber is a much better choice.  Stopping power!  Also I don't know about his 9 mm's but my Model 22 is very good looking!

Other than that he is dead on about Glocks.

Bill


Post 18

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 10:29amSanction this postReply
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A 9mm is better for self-defense in an urban environment because it usually does not penetrate doors and walls, minimizing collateral damage.  With less recoil and a better magazine capacity, you are more likely to hit a target, and with more rounds.  A double-tap to the triangle of death (the triangle formed by your nose and eyes) at close range will instantly put down anyone, making the stopping power of larger rounds superfluous.

Post 19

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
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Now I must disagree with Byron in part.  I deeply respect his military knowledge, but I have much more experience with the results of gun shot wounds in civilian life.  I've prosecuted a number of gun homicides, as well as many assault cases in which there were injuries rather than death.  The stopping power of the .40 is much better than that of the 9.  I prosecuted a case in which an armed burglar shot numerous times at police after they had hit him six times with 9 mm rounds.  He still fired those rounds at them (fortunately without hitting them) after he was hit.  He ultimately was paralyzed, but wasn't taken out of the gun fight until he ran out of ammo.  The agency then switched to the .40.

Byron is correct that there is a larger magazine capacity in the 9 mm, but that can be resolved by buying pre-ban large capacity magazines, and/or carrying several magazines and learning to reload quickly.  The double tap at close range with the 9 will put someone down, but I've never seen that shooting situation in self defense cases.

Byron is also correct about the importance of the possibility of collateral damage.  However, proper training includes the concept of "know your target and what is behind it."  The criminal law includes this concept in the doctrine that if you are responsible for injuries or damage to innocent third parties even in self defense situations.  Part of proper training is to rehearse scenarios in your home, and other places where you go regularly, so that you know how to shoot in a manner in which it is unlikely that you will injure an innocent third party. 

The 40 does have more recoil, but again proper training can deal with that.

There is always a trade off in these situations.  Anyone can shoot more accurately with a .22 than a 44 magnum.    The 44 magnum has more stopping power.  The best self defense weapon varies from person to person and situation to situation. I'd suggest trying a 9 and a .40 and deciding for yourself.   

Bill 


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