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Post 20

Friday, February 4, 2005 - 1:33pmSanction this postReply
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Stephan Kinsella:

Or is the view here that *any* democracy is significantly better than what they had before, even if it is not certain yet to be a Republic or a very limited democracy...? (e.g., if they elect some radical Muslims or something).

What exactly is it in your view that is so good here, about the [Iraqi] election--is it just an improvement; or is it something about democracy now that is inherently good, in your view?

Just curious, I don't mean to challenge you.



Stephan, I take the question entirely in the spirit I know you intended.

My view about the Iraqi election is that it represents an important, if incremental, step toward individual liberty. I view this in an historical perspective. The political implementation of individual rights did not simply start with the Declaration of Independence. Prior to that came such measures as the Magna Carta, common law, etc. Even the U. S. Constitution was inconsistent in its defense of individual rights (e. g., slavery!).

But each step in this historic process, though hardly sufficient to define or guarantee full individual rights and liberty, represented a move forward toward greater and greater liberty and autonomy for individuals.

In this context, consider the enormous step forward represented by the Iraqi elections. Here diverse and often rancorous people, long held in brutal and total subjugation, were able to peacefully register their own preferences concerning the shape of their future governing institutions. Did any one of them get 100% of his own desires institutionalized? Of course not. But they each had, for the first time in memory, a say -- and the system they are hammering out allows for all major factions of society to have a meaningful voice, and meaningful protections.

That is an enormous step forward for formerly rightless individuals and cruelly exploited groups and factions. And the Iraqis know it, and were moved to profound acts of bravery, and to tears over their success -- even if Great Libertarian Minds fail to grasp it. It's quite a stunning spectacle, when you think about it: those people immediately affected by the elections were overwhelmingly supportive and grateful; but a culturally marginal pack of intellectual cranks living outside of Iraq are complaining bitterly that the elections are all a big sham, and don't reflect TRUE "libertarianism."

Now I don't wanna get off on a rant here, but...

Reading many anarchists and paleo-libertarians on the issue of the Iraqi elections reminds me of that old adage -- that moral fanatics demonstrate that "the perfect is the enemy of the good." The elections, they complain, are only "democracy," reflecting the utilitarian principle of majority rule -- greatest good for the greatest number -- but not full individual rights. This isn't REALLY libertarianism...

Well, you could say the same thing about the Magna Carta: a better deal for local nobles, but certainly not a full program of individual rights for all the lowly subjects of the Crown. You could say the same thing about the Constitution: What about rights for women and blacks? In fact, at any given period you can ALWAYS make the case that things could be more perfect, that there could be more liberty.

But for Iraqis, what they have now is an ENORMOUS increase in freedom over what they had under Saddam. And before these people can fully secure or exercise individual rights as WE know and define them, they first must have even such preliminary rights as the right to choose their own form of government without getting themselves shot for daring to register an opinion, or plunging into civil war. Which they have done.

I know this doesn't apply to you, Stephan, but it's not a compliment to many libertarians and anarchists that they seem so transparently unhappy with the results in Iraq. Many of them smugly predicted in advance that the elections would never be held -- or, if held, be a total flop, with few people going to the polls, and massive violence suppressing turnout. The brave Iraqis defied these dire predictions. You'd think true libertarians would be happy to have been proved wrong. But no. Go peruse the postings on LewRockwell.com, AntiState.com, AntiWar.com, and see what these Lovers Of Liberty are saying. They're still taking the worm's eye view of events. Still dismissing the outcome as mere "democracy" rather than full individual rights. Still predicting civil war.

They just can't bring themselves to admit that the hated W just may have gotten it right, in Afghanistan AND Iraq -- and that millions of ordinary people may be happy with the results.

Anyway, I think my answer to your inquiry is clear. No, there's nothing "inherently" good about democracy; but there's certainly something comparatively great about it -- if you're comparing it with Islamofascism, communism, or Saddam's Batthist thugocracy. And the newly liberated Iraqis know it, even if some anarchs don't.

Post 21

Friday, February 4, 2005 - 2:03pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, I'm becoming extremely annoyed with you.

First, you will persist in saying what I want to say before I have a proper chance to say it myself, and with more clarity than I could muster. Then, I find that I have to award you Atlas points for your cogently argued posts, and there's only so many of those to go around, you know.

It's extremely frustrating.

:-)


Post 22

Friday, February 4, 2005 - 2:09pmSanction this postReply
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I was going to award him atlas points, but I decided against it. I refuse to award atlas points to a persons whose last name I cannot remember how to spell correctly after reading it twice.

George


Post 23

Friday, February 4, 2005 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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It is a tremendously inspiring event, no matter what one's opinion on the value and practicality of choosing Iraq to make war upon, and of the election itself.

What courage! And the event may in the long run have far-reaching positive effects that cannot be anticipated, despite the wrongness of the context, and the fact that free elections are not freedom.

Though, as I think, dark days lie ahead, I salute the Iraq election as the bright day that it is in human history.

Post 24

Friday, February 4, 2005 - 4:35pmSanction this postReply
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I very much enjoyed Barbara's article but haven't been following this thread as I have no desire to keep rehashing the debate about invading Iraq. However I now feel the need to formally distance myself from Mark Fulwiler's post #13. His words are indeed his own, as Barbara said.Whatever my differences with those on the "pro-invasion" side of the debate I've never once doubted their good faith or sincerity. "a weird cult of death, self-sacrifice, imperialism, statism and warmongering" they ain't!

MH


Post 25

Monday, February 7, 2005 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
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Democracy and freedom are mutually exclusive. I see no cause to celebrate the 'free' iraq elections. If they were so free why had the Americans banned so many parties/ candidates?

As for Fulwilers comments, I don't think they should be lightly dismissed because he uses some unsavoury language. He is not the only one to do that on this site! This site has attracted a large number of statists, Neo-conservatives, Jacobins and liberventionists. They believe that this recent 'free' election was worth the tens of thousands of dead. Pity the dead can't vote!

I have one question for Barbara, would you lay down your life for this Iraqi election, or indeed could you order the bombing of an Iraqi neighbourhood knowing that your action will likely lead to civilian casualties. If not, how can you claim that the war has been worth it?


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Post 26

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 6:35amSanction this postReply
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I was just about to use the term "knee-jerk leftism" to characterize No.6's grasp of the foreign policy implications of individual rights. Then I realized that the term "knee" is superfluous.

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Post 27

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 5:07pmSanction this postReply
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Very funny Bidinotto!

My point is based on historical facts. When kings, autocrats or despots are deposed and the people rejoice, it has never meant freedom is assured. In modern history, people's revolutions have produced tyrannies far more monstrous than the ones they have pulled down.

I am sure of one outcome from this latest example of US aggression. Virulent hatred of Israel and its American patron. From Morocco to Pakistan, Osama is as admired as Bush is hated.

Fundamentalism is on the rise, even in Iraq. There is a deep sense that only by a return to the Islamic roots that once made their civilization the greatest on earth can the greatness of Arab peoples be restored. And there is both a revulsion in this region against what is perceived as a decadent and toxic American culture and a will to be rid of U.S. political and military domination.

 

For coming to these conclusions I am called a leftist jerk, a Saddamite and a hater of the US. Well lets get one thing straight, I do hate what America has become. It is a far greater threat to my life and liberty than ever Saddam or Osama posed.

 

Now its time for the O'ists to be honest with themselves. This and other sites have revealed them to be liberventionists. Imperial statists of the Wilsonian type. World wars follow such folly.



Post 28

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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I just received confirmation that my brother, to whom I referred in my post #14 above, has been safely transported to Ft. Hood, TX over the past weekend. I thought some of you might be interested to know.

Post 29

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 6:12pmSanction this postReply
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Tenya,
What a great news! He should have a hero's welcome home for a job well done. Hope you'll get a chance to pamper him.


Post 30

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
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Tenya, that is wonderful, wonderful news!!  I am so glad for you and your family.  Please give your brother my sincere thanks.

Warm regards,
Jennifer


Post 31

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 6:39pmSanction this postReply
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Tenya,

Three "hurrahs!" and a "welcome back!" for your brother from me. Take good care of him.

Mike Erickson

Post 32

Monday, March 21, 2005 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
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Tenya, does your brother like fishing?  And will he be in Wisconsin any time soon?  (I'm guessing not because it seems that he's out of Texas, right?).  If so, I can refer him to several fishing guides and charter captains that are offering free trips to men and women who just returned from military duty in the Middle East.  Personal message me if interested. 

Post 33

Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 1:02amSanction this postReply
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Tenya,

Congratulations on the safe return of your Brother. Wish him well for us.


Post 34

Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 10:56pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks to you all, I'll pass your sentiments along to my brother.  Pete, I'll ask him if he's interested and get back to you.

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Post 35

Monday, August 8, 2005 - 9:02pmSanction this postReply
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Here Barbara Branden puts her best foot forward. I don't think the world works like this--I don't think democracy is powerful unless it has power and in this case the power of American guns--but the US sold out South Vietnam, giving up on it, and I'll never trust the US government again except to screw over anybody it comes to want to.

--Brant


Post 36

Tuesday, July 15, 2014 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
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This was poignant. Hindsight is so clear.  Even Christopher Hitchens supported the war in Iraq. What analysis today could provide a retroactive solution? What if, rather than hands-off (and cargo jets of palletized Federal Reserve Notes), the USA had engaged a massive re-culturation effort? Could the USA in ten years have re-educated enough Iraqis to a new and better worldview?  

 

And old Firesign Theater skit about "regrooving" ends with the last stronghold of unhip resistance buried under half a million copies of Naked Lunch. Would 500,000 copies of Atlas Shrugged have prevented the current situation in Iraq?



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