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Post 20

Thursday, September 9, 2004 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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Roger

Nice to hear from you again. You are my favorite trombonists.
Let me say a few words about something you put in your PS.

“We listen to melodies, and they function like characters in a novel or a play. We hear musical progressions, and the function like plot in a novel or play.”

If you are restricting yourself, as I do, to absolute music, then your two sentences are wrong. Melodies do not function like characters in a novel or any narrative structure. There is no plot in absolute music and nothing like a plot in absolute music. Now why do I say this? Music has in it something no narrative structure can endure and to put it bluntly I’m talking about repetition—either large-scale repetitions indicated by the dotted repeat bar, or smaller scale repetitions of a phrase or motive. Imagine reading Atlas Shrugged and getting to Part III and find that the entire Part III is a repetition of Part I. Ridiculous.

Fred


Post 21

Thursday, September 9, 2004 - 12:38pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

"I am puzzled by Fred and Robert...its something like a chess game for them when for us it is nothing like that at all. I think I speak for you too when I say its like constructing a passionate monument...and all the knowledge in the hand and eye, and aesthetic discoveries about how things work from psychological reactions to engineering of structures and the anatomy of paint..it’s not about winning an argument but about expressing knowledge."


In one post you accuse me of being a passionless cypher; now you tell me I only want to win arguments while you are interested in "expressing knowledge." Holy ad hominem Batman. I can only tell you that, for me, this is not a game. This is my life. You can, of course, if you prefer, keep casting aspersions on my life--but why would a nice guy like you want to do that?

Fred


Post 22

Thursday, September 9, 2004 - 1:30pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,

A lesser man might think you're subtly avoiding the point. The point being whether or not music is a selective re-creation of reality.

Do I say that emotions equal reality? Clearly not - no-one would. I do say they're part of reality, which is surely unarguable.

You however apparently don't think emotions are part of reality. Perhaps that diet of noumenons is affecting you? In your own interests I prescribe an urgent change of diet.

You then say: "The point is if art is a selective recreation of reality and music isn’t, then music is not an art according to that definition." Well, if emotions are part of reality, then of course according to that definition it is an art.

I presume now you'll be arguing about Rand's definition of art?


Post 23

Thursday, September 9, 2004 - 2:58pmSanction this postReply
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Fred: "In one post you accuse me of being a passionless cypher; now you tell me I only want to win arguments while you are interested in "expressing knowledge." Holy ad hominem Batman. I can only tell you that, for me, this is not a game. This is my life. You can, of course, if you prefer, keep casting aspersions on my life--but why would a nice guy like you want to do that?"

Hi Fred,

Ah, you have inspired the pit bull in me! The truth is I find Kant's aesthetics disgusting by everything I know about art and aesthetics.

 

Your obvious support of him irked me.

 

I have tried, informally, to cite quotes and art examples, real life experiences, make reasonable connections, and evaluate the info; also making normative judgments on what I think is wrong with Kant's theories. This is not Rand's blanket dismissal of Kant nor is it an objectivist stance; it is my own.

 

Aesthetics is particularly important to me. Great art, or for that matter mediocre art, is not obvious. Its cultural status is gained through art intelligencia's evaluations. Those evaluations are in turn logical conclusions based on aesthetic principals. Today's postmodern evaluations rest squarely on the foundation of Kant's aesthetics. (Stephen Hicks and I are writing a book similar to his Explaining Postmodernism, and I am sure that we will make one or two good arguments for that case.) Getting benevolent representational art's foot in the door is virtually impossible because of those aesthetics. Fred, you might not agree but you are welcome to argue that there is no postmodern art connection Kant and that Kant's aesthetics is really the foundation for a new and glorious renaissance in the arts.

 

What that all means to me is that I would like to see in the not too distant future, the excited eyes of a talented artist who has worked their ass off integrating supremely difficult skills expressing their deepest values and, simply, seeing that recognized by critics and curators of museums.

 

Instead of that we have the acknowledgment of people like Tracy Emin, a "conceptual" artist. This article arrived today in my mail explaining the importance of her recognition by the Tate: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2004/09/08/baemin08.xml&sSheet=/arts/2004/09/08/ixartleft.html

 

The recognition of Tracy Emin and other postmodern artists is: all the newsprint inches; the name recognition; the sales; the credit. Meanwhile incredibly talented real artists struggle in obscurity; in an atmosphere of pain when they deserve a bright universe where knowledge and skill prevails. This kind of suffering is not romantic.

 

You said on another thread: "Kant has a richer notion of reason severed from sensory data. He may be wrong. Remember at the end of the day, I do agree that Kant is, in many, many, ways wrong. I just think he is not wrong in the way some Objectivists think him wrong."

 

That little tiny notion "of reason severed from sensory data" is one of the key concepts that are the foundation for the ascension of Tracy Emin and perhaps at the end of the day you have more in common with her than with me.

 

Michael

 






Post 24

Thursday, September 9, 2004 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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This is a fascinating discussion.

Rand said the following:
"Art is the selective re-creation of reality according to an artist's metaphysical value-judgments.  ... by selective re-creation [art] concretizes man's fundamental view of himself and of existence.
I always took "re-creation" to mean, in this context, taking reality and creating something new in a given medium.

Peter says:
"Music is a selective recreation of emotion - with the emotion conveyed by means of specific patterns of sound which engender or re-create human emotion in the listener."
I think there is an equivocation here.  In Peter's use, I take him to mean by "recreation" that the emotion the composer feels is created again in the listener.  I think this is different from what Rand meant by "re-creation".

However, it can be argued that music is a selective re-creation of sound, in the same way that a painting is the selective recreation of visual images.

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions, insults, gibes, etc?

Thanks,
Glenn


Post 25

Thursday, September 9, 2004 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Mr. Creswell's syllogism that if music is a selective recreation of emotion, and emotions are part of reality, then music fits Rand's definition of art.  However, I think it's important to realize that music is distinct from other artforms in that it's incapable of depicting an abstract subject matter. 


Post 26

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 3:45amSanction this postReply
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Rand said that if something doesn't present an intelligible subject, it ceases to be art. Is music intelligible in the way that Rand meant, or was she guilty of applying one standard to music and another to abstract paintings?

Without reference to titles or external explanations of whatever narratives may have been intended in musical compositions, would the average person -- or even the exceptional SOLOist -- be able to accurately identify the subjects of most pieces of music? (Obviously Rand's standard of intelligibility -- which rejects the idea that abstract art is art -- would require a listener to identify subject/meaning in music on a deeper level than what can be easily identified in the abstract art that she rejected. Something as vague as "It's happy and energetic," "There's a clash or struggle in it," or "It's kind of dark and moody," would not suffice.)

Which "emotions" are "re-created" in Ravel's Bolero (to choose one popular example)? Is it about passionate sex, as many have suggested? Is it a tribute to the ingenuity and growth of capitalism and its energetic, life-like factory processes? Or does it represent something else? Or was it never intended to represent or re-create anything? Is it about nothing, and therefore, not art?
J


Post 27

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 3:45amSanction this postReply
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[duplicate deleted]
(Edited by Jonathan on 9/10, 3:10pm)


Post 28

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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I haven't followed this thread from the beginning, but I think my estimable colleague Mr. Cresswell has got it back-to-front here:

"Music is a selective recreation of emotion - with the emotion conveyed by means of specific patterns of sound which engender or re-create human emotion in the listener."

I'd be more inclined to say it's the selective recreation of sound with a view to evoking certain emotions. It may or may not succeed in evoking those emotions intended by the composer; it may indeed generate contrary emotions, or none at all, in some listeners. In any event, the reality that is selectively recreated is sound (or arguably something more narrow subsumed under "sound"), not emotion.

Linz

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Post 29

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 5:57pmSanction this postReply
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Hi again, Fred! Thanks for commenting on my postcript comment. I appreciate your perspective, but I disagree. I could answer you in full, but then that would entail copying a large amount of material from my essay (which you said that you read!). I hope you understand that I would rather tantalize readers into actually reading the essay themselves, rather than for them to get the wrong idea about what I wrote from our necessarily brief comments here. Nevertheless, let's make a brief stab at it...

I previously wrote: “We listen to melodies, and they function like characters in a novel or a play. We hear musical progressions, and the function like plot in a novel or play,” and you commented: "If you are restricting yourself, as I do, to absolute music, then your two sentences are wrong."

Fred, I am, indeed, restricting myself to absolute music (music without lyrics, programmatic tex or other extra-musical references) but, as I will explain, my two sentences are correct.

You wrote: "Melodies do not function like characters in a novel or any narrative structure."

Well, not exactly like fictional characters, but then music is not exactly like literature. But there are similarities or analogies between them that have been noted by many theorists, both literary and musical. Here are several:

(1) Allan Blumenthal (1974) notes that a "musical theme serves the same function as a leading character or protagonist in a novel. Both are the subjects of the work, and both are necessary for the action. Just as most novels feature many characters--the hero, the heroine, the villain, and other secondary figures--so a musical composition usually contains many themes: the principal theme, the secondary theme, and often additional minor themes." (emphasis added)

(2) Leonard B. Meyer (1989) says that "In 'pure' instrumental music, the strategies by composers to create unity were responsive to the tenets of Romanticism. One of the most important strategies involved creating coherence through similarity, usually motivic or thematic...Even in the absence of an explicit program, motivic continuity created a kind of narrative coherence. Like the chief character in a novel, the 'fortunes' of the main motive--its development, variation, and encounters with other 'protagonists'--served as a source of constancy throughout the unfolding of the musical process." (201, emphasis added)

(3) Roger Scruton (1997) writes that melodic organization "enables a composer to treat a melody or a motif as a 'subject;' it becomes a musical individual with a history. Phrases can be varied, inverted, set in counterpoint; motifs can be extracted from their context and augmented or diminished; the melody itself can be broken up or prolonged--and always the listener will recognize these unities as musical individuals, journeying through the tonal space which is their element." (63, emphasis added)

(4) Stephen Halliwell (2002) refers to the "modern psychological theory of musical experience (see Watt & Ash 1998) which speaks in terms of the hearer's imagining a 'virtual person' within a piece of music." (238, emphasis added)

Fred, you also say: "There is no plot in absolute music and nothing like a plot in absolute music. Now why do I say this? Music has in it something no narrative structure can endure and to put it bluntly I’m talking about repetition—either large-scale repetitions indicated by the dotted repeat bar, or smaller scale repetitions of a phrase or motive. Imagine reading Atlas Shrugged and getting to Part III and find that the entire Part III is a repetition of Part I. Ridiculous."

First, it is ridiculous to suppose that dramatic absolute music is exactly like a novel. But I made no such claim. You have pointed to one of the key differences between them. On the concrete level, there is repetition galore in (for instance) a sonata form piece between the exposition section and the recapitulation section. (And yes, phrases and motives repeat, too.)

However, again, as has been pointed out by both musical and literary theorists, there is a great abstract similarity in structure and event-progression between sonata form and the novel.  

(1) Roger Scruton (1997) cites Schoenberg (1922), McClary (1991) and says that "the 'narrative' character of tonal music has been frequently remarked on." (341, emphasis added)

(2) Charles Rosen (1988) says that sonata form provided "an equivalent for dramatic action." (8). Anthony Storr (1992) explains this as "a story in sound which had a definable beginning, middle and end comparable with the form of a saga, novel, or short story." (81) Storr also says that "[A pattern similar to that of t]he pattern of contrast, conflict, and final resolution [of themes] so characteristic of sonata form...underlies many novels." (83) Storr emphatically concludes: "It is surely no coincidence that when music finally emancipated itself from words composers increasingly used forms which can be related to human stories..." (84, emphasis added)

(3) Leonard Meyer (1989) points out that the repeated sections Fred refers to were used less and less often from the 1780s onward. This may be due to increased familiarity of listeners with the sonata movement layout, or to the tendency of composers to think more in terms of "organic" form, rather than pre-established molds into which to pour their motives, or both. At any rate, the large-scale redundancy he cites (as a difference to literary plot) was already in the process of being abandoned by composers at the very time the Romantic Era (with its emphasis on literary plot) was unfolding. Yet another difference in attitude that led to a growing similarity of sonata form to literary novels is that composers in the Classical Era tended to think of their themes as contrasting, while Romantic Era composers tended to think of their themes as conflicting and requiring resolution through a thematic process -- analogous to a literary process of character development. Meyer writes: "Such thematic relationships were pictured as following a general plan, often of a dialectical or narrative kind, in which the first theme(s) constituted a statement or thesis, the second theme(s) functioned as a contrast or antithesis, and, following conflict or interaction in the developmental section, a resolution or synthesis took place in the recapitulation." (308; also see pp. 203 and 307)

So, Fred, while music is neither totally similar to literature, neither is it totally different. As I have (I hope, amply) shown, there are certain very significant similarities between them. As we would expect from temporal arts that re-create reality -- i.e., that project an imaginary world populated by fictional or "virtual" persons that do things.

Best regards,
Roger

 


Post 30

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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Lindsay: "I think my estimable colleague Mr. Cresswell has got it back-to-front here."
Well I don't stand or fall on whether it's sound/emotion or emotion/sound. It could be that it's a combination of both, which is I guess the way objectivity works. In any case, as many comments here demonstrate, there is much misunderstanding of music.  :-/

That there is no abstract subject, for example, "no representation in the music; no philosophical or narrative content... no semantic meaning in the music" is of course a truism. Well, of course there isn't. To decry this or to offer it as some profound insight is to misunderstand music, or to misrepresent what one knows to be true about music.

SOLOists would do well to remind themselves that here at SOLO we do take Ayn Rand's Romantic Manifesto seriously (which is one of the reasons SOLO was founded) and on the subject of music I largely agree with Rand's account of the process of experiencing music which she described there in the essay 'Art & Cognition.' It shouldn't be necessary to repeat here what she says there - I really do recommend it to readers actually interested in the subject - but it seems that it is. (And as one writer here has already done, I would also highly recommend Allan Blumenthal's taped lectures on the principles of music.)

Parenthetically, I do find it bizarre that many so-called Objectivists (including many contributors here, it seems) either don't bother with Rand's Romantic Manifesto, or belittle her thinking on the subject of music and the other arts; this is possibly because a) her ideas on music and the other arts aren't sufficiently developed therein for anal-retentive 'completists'; or b) there are too few footnotes; or b) because these people have got some other axe to grind (a commitment to head-banging for instance; or to selling books); or c) they just haven't got to RM it yet as they don't really think art is important anyway; or d) many people wish the whole field of artistic response to be one in which one's subjective tastes rule supreme, and they're aware that this just isn't so and that  the Romantic Manifesto demonstrates this.

Anyway, readers of the Romantic Manifesto should always bear in mind that the book is subtitled A Philosophy of Literature for a reason - while her philosophy on literature is well-developed, her comments here on the other arts such as music and architecture are not complete. She doesn't suggest that they are. They are merely beginnings - and as usual with Rand incredibly clear-sighted and fruitful beginnings - that she clearly expected others to pick up and run with (as she says herself about the field of the physiology of musical response.) It turns out that in this field at least (the physiology of music) she has not been let down, as books by Derryck Cooke and others indicate; where she has been let down has been, bizarrely enough, by many Objectivist followers who militantly and sometimes intentionally misrepresent (or ignore) what it was she said.

In terms of experiencing music, the account she gave (put simply) is that we experience music in reverse order to our normal psycho-epistemological process: rather than "from perception - to conceptual understanding - to appraisal - to emotion ... [t]he pattern involved with music is: from perception - to emotion - to appraisal - to conceptual understanding." She makes it clear that the exact process in which this happens is still uncertain when she says that "since the music's emotional content is not communicated conceptually or or evoked existentially, one ... feel[s] it in some peculiar, subterranean way." [Emphasis mine.] The snatches of music we hear might well evoke thoughts, images, scenes and the like, but the key feature is that they relate to our own emotional evaluation of the image, scene etc., i.e., we feel about the scene is the same emotion as is being evoked by the snatch of music.

She suggests that "[w]hen music induces an emotional state without external object, his subconscious suggests an internal one" and "as no single image can capture the meaning of musical experience, the mind needs a succession of images, it is groping for that which they have in common, i.e., for an emotional abstraction." The link with listening-to-music and our sense-of-life is two-fold, she suggests: 1) for the most part we all 'hear' the same emotion in a given snatch of music, however our evaluation of that music will depend in some way on our sense of life; and 2) this process of emotional abstraction is an identical one to the manner in which our sense of life is formed.

In this sense, music allows ourselves to experience, in a single unit, our inner emotional selves  - to perceive, in a single perceptual concrete, our sense-of-life. And that's the importance of all art - not just music: it's not just that it's good for contemplation - it's that it gives us our way of looking at the world as a 'perceptual concrete.' "Nathaniel Branden, building on Rand’s concepts, said that art serves two important psychological functions: it enables the abstract to be concretized into a perceivable object and it, therefore, enables one to “experience” these abstract values - as well as long term goals - in the immediate moment."

There. Finished. :-)

[Now as many of you will know, Rand said much more about music than just what I've said here, but if any of these following terms mean little to you, then it means that you really should read (or re-read) the Romantic Manifesto :psycho-epistemology, sense-of-life, emotional abstraction, metaphysical value-judgements.]

[Apologies to both Fred and Roger here as we've strayed a little from Fred's 'review' of Roger's article. However, It's hard to comment on Roger's article itself, obviously, since we're not all subscribers to JARS, and the article is no longer on-line as I believe it once was.]



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Post 31

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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Replying to Peter Cresswell, Glenn Fletcher, and Lindsay Perigo...

There is a long-standing misinterpretation of Rand's definition of art, in particular the phrase "re-creation of reality." I discuss this at length in my JARS essay, which I fervently wish people would read. They are free to share their own ideas, of course, but since Fred started the thread by purporting to discuss my JARS essay (I'm wondering more and more whether he even read it), it would advance the discussion more if we were all "on the same page," rather than continuing to recycle old opinions and misunderstandings.

Anyway...

"Re-creation of reality" does not mean the taking of materials from reality and making them over into something else. All human creation does this, not just art.

And it does not (primarily) mean the representing of something specific from reality, such as people, fruit...or emotions.

And even if specific things from reality were represented in art, emotions cannot directly be represented. Emotions are emotions of a person -- or something like a person. They can only be represented as features of a represented person (or...).

What is meant by "re-creation of reality" is the creating anew of reality. In other words, the creation of a new reality, an imaginary world. Peikoff calls this a "microcosm" (see OPAR), and I have too since the early 1970s, when I realized that this is what Rand meant in her definition.

This world may contain human figures or characters, fruit, trees, the ocean...or even what some call "virtual" or "tonal" entities or persons -- namely, melodic themes and motives. In the dynamic arts, these "persons" are interpreted (as we naturally do through empathetic imagination) as engaging in goal-directed actions, and we respond to them accordingly.

We feel emotions when listening to dramatic music, we often interpret the emotions as being (somehow) "in" the music -- and they are in the music, they are virtual emotions of the virtual persons in music, the melodic themes, which do certain things and to which certain things happen. (I discussed this in a previous post and, in more detail, in my JARS essay.) 

But the emotions in music are not free-floating emotions somehow conveyed by musical tones. They are features of the melodic themes as they develop, to the extent we interpret them as being (like) persons engaged in goal-directed action.

And, it goes without saying (I hope), the persons portrayed by music are abstract persons, not Zeus or Dagny or Babbitt or Ozzie Osbourne. :-) 

Best 2 all,
Roger 


Post 32

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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To Roger and Peter,

Wow, I humbly bow.

Michael


Post 33

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 7:03pmSanction this postReply
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Two further points to add (this is an enjoyable thread, isn't it?)  :-)

First, as regards misunderstanding music: so much of the arguments about how music affects us come down to introspecting how we ourselves listen to music. Many people are unwilling or unable to do this, or to grant that such a thing can be objective rather than subjective.

It's related in a way to the problems many philosophers apparently have with understanding that a mental state can be objective - it seems for many that once an argument is removed from a purely rationalistic framework they consider themselves to be moving into a field of subjectivism.

Second, my last post crossed Rogers' two posts, which both look at first sight to make many valid points.

Cheers.


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Post 34

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 7:24pmSanction this postReply
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 I said previously that our emotional response to melody and melodic-harmonic progression is analogous to our response to characters and plot in a novel or play, because of a process of "empathetic imagination" by which we attribute agency and goal-directedness to melodic themes. Surely someone is going to take issue with this claim, so perhaps a few words would be in order to ward off an unnecessary row.

Unlike Peter Cresswell and others (such as Torres and Kamhi), I do not place much stock in Rand's hypothesis about emotion in music. Instead, as I have indicated in previous posts, I see music as functioning very much like literature in re the emotions.

Peter suggests that we continue to take seriously Rand's thoughts expressed in The Romantic Manifesto, and I certainly agree that her worthy thoughts should be given due credit. In particular, although I disagree with and dismiss her hypothesis about music from "Art and Cognition," I very much like and agree with her remarks in "Art and Sense of Life" about the process of identification. She refers to "the popular notion that a reader of fiction 'identifies himself with' some character or characters of the story. 'To identify with' is a colloquial designation for a process of abstraction: it means to observe a common element between the character and oneself, to draw an abstraction from the character's problems and apply it to one's own life." (p. 37)

Now, recall that I said it is a widespread tendency for people to attribute agency and goal-directedness to non-human beings, fictional characters, and even inanimate objects, if there is sufficient similarity upon which to base this attribution. A classic experiment from the 1940s established this result with toddlers, children, and adults in relation to an abstract cartoon of moving dots that appeared to be striving toward some goal, interfering with the other, and aiding the first against the second. (Steven Pinker wrote of this in How the Mind Works and in Daniel Wegner's The Illusion of Conscious Will. Don't let these titles scare you off; they are excellent books!). I ask you (rhetorically):  can melody in music be all that less capable of presenting a metaphor of agency and goal-directedness than dots on a movie screen??  :-)

So, if we are able to perceive and respond to music in this manner, then how are the emotions "in music" any different from the emotions "in drama"? Why is such a complicated, ponderous psycho-epistemological hypothesis as Rand's needed to explain emotion in music? It's not! She's already given us the basic psycho-epistemological explanation of music. The very next sentence after the passage I quoted above from "Art and Sense of Life" reads:  "Subconsciously, without any knowledge of esthetic theory, but by virtue of the implicit nature of art, this is the way in which most people react to fiction and to all other forms of art." (emphasis added)

Ahem. All other forms of art. This means that (Rand believed) we react to music by identifying with something in the music. And what might that be? The melody(s) and its (their) actions, of course -- just as in literature, the other major form of dynamic art. We engage in an act of empathetic imagination, seeing the melodies or dramatic characters as if they were persons engaged in goal-directed actions, we draw a subconscious parallel between the melodies or characters and ourselves, and we respond accordingly.

The parallel is so striking, it is nothing short of mystifying that Rand did not follow up on her own stunningly, fundamentally important insight in analyzing how music works. But perhaps...perhaps it is because what is occurring in esthetic "identification" is not so cerebral an act as Rand characterizes it, but instead a more emotional, empathy-driven act. Remember, she said that "emotions are not tools of cognition," so perhaps she was or would have been uncomfortable with the idea that empathy is the basic mechanism by which we "enter into" and respond to a work of art. Just wondering...

Best 2 all,
Roger Bissell


Post 35

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 7:41pmSanction this postReply
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Roger: "'Re-creation of reality' does not mean the taking of materials from reality and making them over into something else. All human creation does this, not just art."

Well, I guess that we're talking genus and differentia here, aren't we. Genus: stuff that re-creates reality (i.e., all human creation); diffentia: stuff selected according to the selector's metaphysical value-judgements (i.e., human creations that are art).

That doesn't at all discount your point that the artist is making reality anew, about which we agree: it means that the artistic unit created is one abstracted from the whole of reality from which the elements that make up the unit have been selected. In this sense the new unit (the work of art) is a "whole universe for us to live in, explore and enjoy" as architect Claude Megson used to tell us; and it is so by virtue of being a microcosm of what the artist intuits as being metaphysically valuable.

To talk of it as microcosm is I guess a way of reminding yourself that the work of art is an integrated Unit, rather than just a grab-bag of stuff.

As fas as your point of melodies being like characters, I think I agree with you, at least to the extent that a melody or musical theme is analogous. If the following is your point then I do agree: "not exactly like fictional characters, [since] music is not exactly like literature. But there are similarities or analogies between them." The analogy helps us to understand a piece of music, and perhaps to relate to particular themes.

I might say here that I think once again Rand is ahead of you: The 'virtual characters' you're talking about later seem to be similar to her own point. The snatches of music we hear often evoke thoughts, images, scenes and the like, but the key feature is that they relate to our own emotional evaluation of the image, scene etc., i.e., we feel about the scene is the same emotion as is being evoked by the snatch of music.

(And finding Rand got there ahead of us is no disgrace. I'm reminded of a story told by John Ridpath: he recounted that after many, many years of work reflecting on (I think) the field of value theory and economics in which he was then a specialist that he had developed several insights which he considered particularly profound and of enormous moment, but understandable only to another professional in the field. . He then re-read Rand's 'Egalitarianism and Inflation,' and found that there in the article, in a paragraph integrating her whole argument, were those very insights for which he had sweated blood, written as if they were for her the most obvious thoughts in the world. He said it was like mounting an expedition to climb Everest, and after all the effort to climb to the top only to find Ayn atop the mountain having a cup of tea and asking him where he'd been all this while.)



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Post 36

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 10:06pmSanction this postReply
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I previously wrote: "'Re-creation of reality' does not mean the taking of materials from reality and making them over into something else. All human creation does this, not just art."

Peter Cresswell commented:  "Well, I guess that we're talking genus and differentia here, aren't we. Genus: stuff that re-creates reality (i.e., all human creation); diffentia: stuff selected according to the selector's metaphysical value-judgements (i.e., human creations that are art)."

You miss my point. "Re-create reality" does not mean reworking elements of reality into something else. It means creating a new reality. It means to make reality (the world) again, but in a new form. (Re-create means to create anew, which means to create in a new form. To re-create reality thus means to actually engage in the God-like act of creating the universe again, but in a different form than it really exists. As Peikoff says, this is the closest humans come to being like God. :-)

Now, the genus "re-create reality" means an imaginary world created according to some standard of selectivity. One might select and arrange one's materials in creating an imaginary world according to what is essential historically, as one might do in creating a diorama, which is a historical re-creation of reality. Or one might select and arrange one's materials according to what is essential astronomically, as one might do in creating a model of the solar system or the galaxy, which is an astronomical re-creation of reality. (There was a really great model presented a few years back in National Geographic.) Or one might select and arrange one's materials according to what is essential metaphysically, as one does in creating an aesthetic re-creation of reality. These are all microcosms, all imaginary worlds, stylized according to some standard of selectivity.

A boat or a chair or a textbook is not a re-creation of reality. Yes, each of these objects is created by taking materials from reality and making them over into something else. But that is not "re-creation of reality." Reworking reality is not "re-creating" it, unless one has also, in so doing, created an imaginary world of some sort.

Peter also stated: "That doesn't at all discount your point that the artist is making reality anew, about which we agree: it means that the artistic unit created is one abstracted from the whole of reality from which the elements that make up the unit have been selected. In this sense the new unit (the work of art) is a "whole universe for us to live in, explore and enjoy" as architect Claude Megson used to tell us; and it is so by virtue of being a microcosm of what the artist intuits as being metaphysically valuable."

It is an imaginary universe or microcosm because one can look at it and realize that one is looking into another world, not this one, but an imaginary one. "Microcosm" doesn't mean a "digest" or "condensation" of one's intuitions. It means a world in miniature. 

Peter also stated: "To talk of it as microcosm is I guess a way of reminding yourself that the work of art is an integrated Unit, rather than just a grab-bag of stuff."

It's more than just a reminder that it's an "integrated Unit." Every well-made human creation is an "integrated Unit," but a chair or a textbook or a boat is not a microcosm.

Peter also stated: "As far as your point of melodies being like characters, I think I agree with you, at least to the extent that a melody or musical theme is analogous. If the following is your point then I do agree: "not exactly like fictional characters, [since] music is not exactly like literature. But there are similarities or analogies between them." The analogy helps us to understand a piece of music, and perhaps to relate to particular themes."

Agreed.

Peter also stated: "I might say here that I think once again Rand is ahead of you: The 'virtual characters' you're talking about later seem to be similar to her own point. The snatches of music we hear often evoke thoughts, images, scenes and the like, but the key feature is that they relate to our own emotional evaluation of the image, scene etc., i.e., we feel about the scene is the same emotion as is being evoked by the snatch of music."

For someone who was "ahead of me," Rand was strikingly silent about the analogy between literature and music. She said that melody was an "auditory entity," and then she said nothing further about what such an entity did or what happened to it in the music, and how that might be similar to a character in literature.

Also, I strongly disagree with what you say about our emotional response being due to similarity of images evoked by the music to our experience. We respond not to images evoked by the music, but directly to the musical entities, the melodies as they change and develop, and because we empathically identify with them (as we do characters in a story). Any imagery that we individually add to this experience is really superfluous and idiosyncratic and ancillary to our emotional response, which is based on the nature of the musical entities as we react to them.

Peter concluded: "Finding Rand got there ahead of us is no disgrace."

I only wish she had gotten there ahead of me, but she didn't.  The promise in her 1966 essay was not fulfilled in her 1971 essay.  Instead, she went off on her psycho-epistemological tangent and never said anything further about music.  We were left with an unnecessarily convoluted hypothesis that created more vagueness and confusion than it dispelled -- and which admirers, to this day, reverentially repeat as though it afforded any clarification of the unique nature of music.

As a result of my frustration with the shortcomings of Rand's "Art and Cognition," I immediately set to work in mid-1971 developing my own model of music, derived from her earlier ideas about literature and art in general -- and I supplemented them with similar ideas from various musical theorists and aestheticians. After toiling "in the wilderness" for a number of years, I set my writings aside, only to find years later -- to my weary satisfaction -- that Leonard Peikoff in OPAR was saying essentially the same thing about art being a microcosm. He still did not say anything to indicate the deep similarity between music and literature, though the Blumenthals did way back in 1974, shortly after I had reached my own similar, independent conclusions. (I first presented them in December 1971 at a conference in Williamsburg, Iowa.) But make no mistake about it:  while many people have spoken of the musical-literary analogy, Ayn Rand, who above all should have been one of them, did not.

I don't regard Rand's not getting music right a disgrace, exactly -- but I do consider it a nearly incomprehensible tragedy, considering how much she knew about the nature of character and plot in literature.  But then, just as I benefited enormously from her insights about literature -- which were echoed by analogy here and there by various writers on music -- she would have benefited a great deal from listening to and learning from someone like Leonard Meyer.  Bless her independent soul, she was just too much into her own thought process and not enough into the known data about music.

Best 2 all,
Roger Bissell 

P.S. -- Someone mentioned Deryck Cooke (was it you, Peter?) as someone who had helpful ideas for understanding music. I agree with this assessment of the value of his book, The Language of Music, but I note that it was written years before Rand wrote "Art and Cognition." He is another author from whom she would have drawn some beneficial insights. Yet, there is no indication that she did.


Post 37

Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 5:56amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Pete and Mr. Creswell,

"I agree with Mr. Creswell's syllogism that if music is a selective recreation of emotion, and emotions are part of reality, then music fits Rand's definition of art."

I disagree with your syllogism. It comitts the fallacy of composition. Consider this from Kelley's Logic text. If my car gets 25 miles to the gallon and my radio is part of my car, then my car gets 25 miles to the gallon.

Uncle Fred
Logic Professor and the man standing beside Linz on the latest group photo from the TOC summer seminar.

Post 38

Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 5:57amSanction this postReply
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Pete, Forgive the typo on "commits."
Fred

Post 39

Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 6:09amSanction this postReply
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Roger,

"I could simply say that this is a subjectivist fallacy appealing to majority or mass opinion. If music is mimetic, then Curly who doesn't experience it that way is a stooge; but Curly is not a stooge, because millions of others enjoy it in the same way; thus Curly is not a stooge. Sort of a "50 million stooges can't be wrong" argument, right?"

Wrong. Before one can have a fallacy, one has to have an argument since a fallacy is an argument so weak that the premises provide no support for the conclusion. What I told was a story that was designed to catch one unawares and make one reexamine one's own beliefs about, in this case, the nature of music.

Notice also that reference to the "majority" comes after the story and as a comment on it. Now maybe this has to do with the fact that the mimetic nature of painting and literature is unquestioned--its just so obvious we probably think it is self evident. But it is different with music. That is the very debate we are having and at this point in the conversation it simply has not be settled. If one were to say Curly is odd because music is mimetic would, of course, beg the very question under discussion.

Fred

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