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Post 20

Monday, August 9, 2004 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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Eric,

These are just the starting points:

On the boondogle to fund useless, propagandistic "Centers of Excellence" for work with old and largely useless pre-2001 embryonic stem cell lines:

http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2004pres/20040714b.html

On the FDA arbitrarily prohibiting over-the-counter sale of Plan B, against unambiguous and overwhelming scientific evidence that Plan B is safe and effective:

http://www.rhtp.org/ec/ec_otc/ec_otc_unprecedented.htm

(Edited by Adam Reed on 8/09, 9:35pm)


Post 21

Monday, August 9, 2004 - 3:11pmSanction this postReply
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Adam, my friend,

Why have you tempted me into making you looking foolish?  I have a weakness for argumentation like this, I cannot resist it.  I now must dismantle this piece of garbage you call an article.  You have only yourself to blame.

>>You note the Democratic convention's focus on additional US funds for stem-cell research. But the Democrats are not the only ones who plan to spend tens of millions of taxpayer dollars on research they favor. US Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson announced recently a $ 19,000,000 initiative, to fund 3 "centers of excellence" to promote the 19 stem cell lines that existed back on August 9, 2001 - when President Bush prohibited the use of subsequently developed stem cell lines in US-funded research. Most of those 19 pre-2001 stem cell lines cannot be used for human therapy at all. The rest have only the most marginal applicability to a minuscule fraction of potential therapies.<<

Actually there are about 70 embryonic stem cell lines upon which federally funded research can be done.  Bush's policy was to permit funding on existing lines and ban funding that involved the deliberate destruction of embryos to obtain new lines.  There is, of course, no prohibition on stem cell research, embryonic or otherwise, in the U.S. -- just limitations on what scientists can force the taxpayer to pay for.

As for the marginal applicability of any particular embryonic stem cell line, all are marginal at best because there remains no clear path to any therapy.  One of the many big hurdles is the inability to determine that a cell cultured from an embryonic stem cell has lost its potency for change once implanted into a patient -- e.g., cells turning into teeth and hair in the brains of Parkison's sufferers. Another basic problem is that we cannot replicate the mechanical environment which causes embryonic stem cells to evolve.  Even if there were clear progress toward a particular therapy, any cells cultured from any embryonic stem cell line present the problem of rejection by the patient, just as any organ transplant does. 

>>In the case of abortion, the focus on "government-funded abortion" was a distraction from the objective moral principle: that the government treat abortion like any other application of medical technology to the betterment of human life. Similarly, in the case of medical research using embryonic stem cells, the principle is that only moral agents can have rights - and embryos are not moral agents. ...<<

Your argument is strictly utilitarian:  We should harvest human embryos because they can make things better for a collective called "human life".  Whether or not one things a human embryo is a human being, why does this naked utilitarian argument merit any respect?

>>... The spotlight that both Democrats and Republicans shine on government funding distracts our attention from what the rest of the government is doing. Through the US Food and Drug Administration, the Bush administration recently sent, to companies considering investment in stem-cell research, an indirect message that could be more devastating, in the long run, than Bush's 2001 ban on using new cell lines in taxpayer-funded projects.  ... On May 8, 2001, Steven Galson, acting director of the FDA's Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, decided to prohibit over-the-counter sale of emergency contraceptive Plan B. He made this decision against all scientific evidence evaluated the the FDA's own scientific staff, and against the nearly unanimous (23-4) vote of the expert advisory panel of outside scientists appointed by the agency. ... Yet the Bush administration insists on having Steven Galson's decision, capricious, salacious, dishonest and contrary to evidence though it was, enforced - as a warning, to any enterprise that would invest in therapies contrary to this administration's false morality: if you develop products that the Bush administration disapproves of, you will not be allowed to sell them.<<

Complaining as though the FDA were just recently politicized by the Bush administration is disingenuous to say the least.  In any event, the FDA is required to account for social factors, not just medical evidence, in decisions.  (Just on more good reason why it shouldn't exist in the first place.)  So, even assuming that the Bush administration overruled the FDA's preliminary evaluation to approve the over-the-counter sale of the Plan B "morning after" pill for reasons of social policy, it was within its authority to do so.

However, there was a legitimate scientific dispute about restricting the sales of Plan B to prescription only.  There was only scanty evidence, based upon accidental ingestion of Plan B by pregnant women, as to its effects upon a developing child.  If sold by prescription, then a doctor could determine that a woman was not beyond conception before prescribing the drug.

Of course, none of all this tempest-in-a-teapot fuss about the Plan B "morning after" pill stopped it from being brought to market.

>>This amounts to a de-facto ban on private industry investment in disapproved stem-cell research. A prohibition that the industry, dependent as it is on the FDA's permission to sell its products, will not permit its scientists to challenge. With the exception of a few tiny efforts by the surviving remnants of non-profit institutions without federal funding, stem-cell therapy research has been terminated in America.<<

How the Plan B matter manifests itself into a "de-facto ban on private industry investment in disapproved stem-cell research" is beyond me.  That the stem cell research "industry" will not permit its scientists to challenge the FDA is a fabrication.  Futhermore, there are plenty of research efforts going on.  To the extent that more isn't occurring because non-profits haven't weaned themselves from the federal tit, is certainly not an issue for any of us who think fewer rather than more tax dollars should be feeding these institutions in the first place.

>>Stem cell based organ repair is the only therapeutic technology with a realistic prospect of success against death from organ system failure. US National Center for Health Statistics counted in 2001 - the most recent year for which complete data are available - 700,142 deaths from heart disease, 123,013 from chronic lower respiratory diseases, 71,372 from diabetes, 53,852 from Alzheimer's disease, and 39,480 from kidney diseases. Conservatively estimating that only one-third of those deaths will become preventable with the application of stem cell based therapies, every year of government-imposed delay in the development of those therapies kills 329,000 Americans.<<

At the present there is no "realistic" prospect of any therapy by developed from stem cell research.  Moreover, I note you stopped distinguishing between embryonic stem cell research (upon which there exists only a mild restriction on federal funding) and non-embryonic stem cell research (which has no restrictions at all).  Your "conservative" estimate of the one-third of deaths stem cell therapies will prevent doesn't tell us how important if at all embryonic stem cells will be in that effort.  But it's all hooey, any because there are no present prospects for therapies.

As for the government delaying anything, it hasn't.  Nothing is stopping private funds from paying for stem cell research.

>>A few foreign efforts in stem-cell therapy research continue, but the loss of American research to date means at least two years' delay. That's about 658,000 sick Americans who could have lived but will die, with the Christianist agenda of their own government as root cause.<<

An utterly baseless assertion.  It assumes success that could be had in stem cell research absent what?  Bush's LIFTING of the ban on federal funding of embryonic stem cell research?  Some Christian cabal supporting Bush's lifting of that ban?  You can't even come up with a logical conspiracy, let alone a plausible one.

>>At 58, I will have about 40-50 more years to live if stem-cell research resumes - and only about 20 if it remains effectively prohibited. With both Republicans and Democrats in a spending frenzy, the rest of my life is likely to be poor. But if the Democrats were to be elected, and mandate decisions based on objective science at the FDA, and spend my money on research into human health instead of the Republicans' Christianist agenda, then at least, while poor, my remaining life will be reasonably long.<<
 
This is the clincher, isn't it?  Better to have more government if less government happens to coincide with the agenda of some Christians.  That's assinine enough in itself, but what makes you think that socialist Democrats are going to require "objective science" at the FDA any more than your "Christianist" Republicans?

Regards,
Bill


Post 22

Monday, August 9, 2004 - 5:59pmSanction this postReply
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Speaking of articles, if crap like Adam's represents the "sense of life" you want to promote, when can we expect articles on the merits of PBS, Medicaid abortions, and Head Start?
I don't believe this is happening on SOLO. I never defended any government agency (other than defense, law enforcement, and the courts) anywhere
Hold on. You guys are against PBS?


Post 23

Monday, August 9, 2004 - 10:31pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Oh, dear. I've been mostly away from SOLO since late June. Could you please refresh my memory about what I wrote that was "pro-Republicrat?"

I hope I didn't scare you too badly. I'd like to reassure you that I was never a strong Bush supporter, except that I didn't want a Communist (Gore) or someone who stole an election (Gore) in the White House, and I liked Bush's taking a strong stand against terrorism after 9/11, and his choices for Secretary of Defense and, to a lesser extent, VP.

Other than that, he has completely appalled me and I grow more disgusted with him with each passing day.

Kerry, otoh, is a monstrous power luster, liar, leftist, bully, and braggart. His presidency would make me look back on _Bill Clinton_ with nostalgia, which is saying something. Kerry is more like Hillary Rodham Clinton in drag.

-Bill

Post 24

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 9:05amSanction this postReply
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Ed:
"I've been deeply concerned with pro-Republicrat comments from Nevin and Tingley, and now feel encroached by at least one leftist O-ist."

Citizen Rat:
"Other than making an off-hand comment now and then about not being ready to hoist the banner of revolution (for the simple reason, the time is not ripe), I'm not sure how I have proposed an indiscriminate support for Republicans and Democrats.  In fact, I think I have suggested the opposite -- i.e., for the time being distinctions in favor of limited government, however meager, need to be made between the major parties come time to pull the lever."

Ed:
Okay fine (you make good points). But after our discussion regarding tyranny (on other thread), and utilizing Bayesian-inspired reasoning, I've calculated the probability that you will vote "Republican" to be greater than 0.8 (0.9 with a 0.1 margin of error)! I find THIS disconcerting. (humor mine).


Mr. Nevin:
"Could you please refresh my memory about what I wrote that was 'pro-Republicrat?'"

Ed:
Damn-it. Am I to presume that you guys will always be there to keep me honest? What do you think that (repeated acts of honesty) is going to do to my building of character? Huh? (humor added)

Mr. Nevin, for the life of me, I can't find the post in question now. In the attempt to retain some semblance of honesty and decency on this forum, "my take" on the gist of your alleged post went as such (perhaps you can confer?):

-Many Libertarians have come to embrace civil liberties to the point of hating our own government - and its limits on liberties - more than they do the suicide-bombing terrorists

-Bush had some kind of point (which cannot be entirely reduced to an Orwellian nightmare) by passing things such as the Patriot Act

Mr. Nevin (and/or Citizen Rat), do you, or do you not, confer with the above-expressed gist?

Ed



Post 25

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 9:00amSanction this postReply
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I detect a movement of many Objectivists away from support of the Bush Administration, even to the point of holding their noses to vote for Kerry, on the sole grounds of the religious fundamentalism that Bush is imposing on the nation.

Anyone who hasn't yet listened to "Leonard Peikoff's View on the 2004 Presidential Election," can access it here. It is a 19 minute segment from a June 3 lecture, in which he explains why he intends to vote for Kerry, and why he condemns not only Bush, but also those who abstain from voting on the grounds that both candidates are no good.

This stem cell controversy would seem to be only the tip of the Christian fundamentalist iceberg.

Larry



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Post 26

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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Oh great! So, what's been basically said here, is that now I have to refute PEIKOFF! Oh great. That's just great. What in the world did I get myself into? Talk about David and Goliath!

Well then, fine. If Peikoff wants to argue with me ... then: fine! He's going to have to answer to my principled arguments then. He's no doubt touting some kind of pragmatic view on this matter. What a fu%$#ng pragmatist.

Listen damnit, Big Government reduces reasoning capacities with fear. If there is no real danger, then a fricken danger is invented. This is nothing fricken new. It's the fricken oldest trick in the book, actually (used by religion as well).

What THE HELL is Peikoff afraid of? That's what I want to know. Somebody, either CATO - or the damn unacknowledged-but-fundamentally-leftist neocons - got to him. He let his fricken guard down. That's all for now. I'm fu@#$ng pissed-off by this bul&$#it.

Ed

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Post 27

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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Christ, you only need 2 books to sufficiently understand this issue! Two fricken books ...

1) "The Prince" by Machiavelli

and

2) "1984" by Orwell

Orwell is the anti-dote to Machiavelli, Strauss, Neocons, or who-the-fu@#-ever is on, or behind, any and all of this insane motivation for Bigger Government - or for support to those who plan for such.

Damnit Peikoff ... I trusted you ... you sell-out. Buying into that crap about Bush really being religious, really honestly just going after what his "morality" has defined. Let me tell you something Peikoff (allow little ole' ME to educate YOU on something) ...

The are 4 necessary stages of psycho-spiritual growth for humans:

Stage 1 - the Unprincipled, Charlatan stage (religion is touted Machiavellian-style for manipulation). The "healthy" grow out of this stage in or just beyond their toddler years (the "terrible two's"). Most of the "religious" (including Bush) have never actually outgrown this infantile narcissism.

Stage 2 - the Mindless, Subserviant stage (religion is accepted on faith, wholesale; creating ineffective humans not fit for productive existence in this world). These people have adopted religion as an illegitimate excuse to avoid personal growth, which requires ongoing denial and a thoroughgoing ineffectiveness in the world. The "healthy" grow out of this stage at or just beyond their adolescent years - by realizing the gap between Reality & Religion in both explaining and controlling real human welfare.

Stage 3 - the Hume/Kant Skeptic stage (best exemplified by post-modern relativists, including the majority of University "intellectuals"). These sandal-wearing tree-huggers realize they have navigational powers, but have never seen a "lighthouse" (they feel like a captain who can truly control his own boat, but who is helplessly and hopelessly lost as sea).

Stage 4 - the Objectivist/Ethical Individualist stage (stage 3 folks who've been made aware of a "lighthouse" - courtesy of Rand, etc - and can now chart a real path to endless human accomplishment and joy)

Don't confuse Bush with an ineffectual "faithful and discreet slave."

Ed

Post 28

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 1:38pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

Thanks for the source info.

Bill,

Is this the right person?
"The Basics About Stem Cells" By: Dr. Maureen L. Condic
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4301


Regards,

~E.

(Edited by Eric J. Tower on 8/10, 1:46pm)


Post 29

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 1:39pmSanction this postReply
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Larry,

Thank you for the link to Peikoff's excerpt.  I had arrived at the same understanding of the key issue re Bush independently, nearly a year ago.  Just so no one accuses me of plagiarizing Peikoff without attribution - when I wrote in this thread that "The most likely outcome of a Republican victory this November will be a replay of the last totalitarian-totalitarian war, with Islamist powers in the role of the Axis, a Christianist America in the role of Communist Russia, and the Neo-Liberal states of Europe playing the role that Britain and America played in the previous round. Bush's Christianist policies, if perpetuated, will be the deadliest policy ever to threaten a previously free people. They must be stopped.":   I didn't know when I was writing this that Peikoff had the same position.  But no other reaction to the Christianist threat is coherent with Objectivism and with the facts of reality.


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Post 30

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 2:17pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, Eric.

Yes, that's doctor I was thinking of.  I also found the article she wrote a couple of years ago.  Here's the link:  http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0201/articles/condic.html.  I hope you find it informative.

Regards,
Bill


Post 31

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, Ed.

>>Okay fine (you make good points). But after our discussion regarding tyranny (on other thread), and utilizing Bayesian-inspired reasoning, I've calculated the probability that you will vote "Republican" to be greater than 0.8 (0.9 with a 0.1 margin of error)! I find THIS disconcerting. (humor mine).<<

You are correct, sir.  Your powers of reasoning are truly awe-inspiring.  However, I should note that I am voting for Bush because my opinion of Kerry, if it is at all possible, is even lower than that of Mr. Nevins.

The Republicans have demonstrated when in power they are just as capable of bankrupting the welfare state as the Democrats are.  It is my meager hope that at least the Republicans will let the welfare state fail; whereas, I reasonably fear the Democrats will bring about outright socialism to resurrect it.

Regards,
Bill


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Post 32

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
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A note on Condic:

Her position has two premises: "There are some things that we sinners were not meant to know," and "Immune rejection is an insuperable problem for any therapy based on embryonic stem cells."  The first needs no elaboration here.  The second was used against organ transplant technology.  It is a solved problem; there are people who are now enjoying their second decade of lifespan added by transplant surgery.  Which is why Condic's idiotic screeds were published, not in medical journals, but in the screed-sheets of the totalitarian theocratic movement.

(Edited by Adam Reed on 8/10, 4:14pm)


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Post 33

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

You do understand that you cannot just make up quotations and attribute them to someone to make your point.  Dr. Condic has not made the statements you have attributed her.  I'm not going to dignify the first one.  As for the second, here is what she has written on the subject:

"[T]here are profound immunological issues associated with putting cells derived from one human being into the body of another. The same compromises and complications associated with organ transplant hold true for embryonic stem cells. The rejection of transplanted cells and tissues can be slowed to some extent by a good 'match' of the donor to the patient, but except in cases of identical twins (a perfect match), transplanted cells will eventually be targeted by the immune system for destruction. Stem cell transplants, like organ transplants, would not buy you a 'cure'; they would merely buy you time. In most cases, this time can only be purchased at the dire price of permanently suppressing the immune system."
 
None of this controversial.  So what do you dispute in this statement?
 
The fact is you are guilty of the very thing you are bitching about.  Your support of embryonic stem cell research is strictly political.  You simply made up calumnies to address the only expert introduced into this thread.  All your info on the Plan B brouhaha comes from an activist website.  You have offered no objective scientific facts to argue against the federal government policy favoring non-embryonic stem cell research over embryonic stem cell research.  You weirdly accuse some undefined "Christianist" conspiracy behind this policy.  You bizarrely warn us that this conspiracy is the most deadly threat we Americans face today.
 
Time to get that lithium prescription renewed, don't you think?  Meanwhile, stay away from sharp objects, OK?
 
Bill


Post 34

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 7:46pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, Ed.

Your four stages of spiritual growth are interesting.  My obversation is that life goes through seventeen-year cycles.  The first is the discovery of childhood (0-17), next is the hope of young adulthood (18-34), then the drive for success of midlife (35-51), followed by the benevolence of late midlife (52-68), and finally the years of wisdom.

Regards,
Bill


Post 35

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 7:57pmSanction this postReply
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So Condic writes, "Stem cell transplants, like organ transplants, would not buy you a 'cure'; they would merely buy you time."  But then, no available biological technology "buys a cure" in the sense of actual immortality.  Buying time, on the scale of two decades or more of additional life, is an eminently rational value.

Identically, one might argue that a murderer does not cause death, since death eventually comes anyway; he only steals some time.  This is a fine way to excuse a massacre.  But there are also people, like me, to whom a few extra decades of time matter a great deal.

(Edited by Adam Reed on 8/10, 7:58pm)


Post 36

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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Addressing the Condic doctrine again:

There is a simple way to get around the alleged immune rejection problem.  That is to clone an embryo from the patient, and only then apply embryonic stem cell technology.

This ought to bury Condic's phony argument, unless you think that there is something wrong with cloning one's own body.


Post 37

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

I should point out another falsehood on your part: >>Which is why Condic's idiotic screeds were published, not in medical journals, but in the screed-sheets of the totalitarian theocratic movement.<<

Condic's stem cell research at the University of Utah has been peer-reviewed.

Bill



Post 38

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 8:15pmSanction this postReply
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There appear to be two bones of contention involving stem-cell research to find cures for any disease: (1) federal funding of those efforts, and (2) government restrictions on scientific inquiry.

First of all, the federal government has no authority under the Constitution to fund any such program that does not provide for the "general Welfare." In this instance, unless a disease is both communicable and exposes the entire population equally, the federal government has no authority to spend taxpayer funds on any aspect of its prevention or cure. And, if that principle were adhered to, there would be no funding controversy.

An article titled Privately Funded Research Yields New Stem-Cell Lines appeared in the 3/4/04 edition of the Wall Street journal. It identified these current principal sources of private funds for stem cell research:

Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation: Spending $8 million over three years on embryo stem cells;
Michael J. Fox Foundation: $2 million to create new stem cells useful in Parkinson's research;
Stanford University: A $12 million donation backed new initiative in 2002;
University of California, San Francisco: $5 million from Intel's Andy Grove funds stem cell center.


As near as I can tell, there is no compelling reason to use tax money to fund any medical research. Alternatives are available. People right now are freely giving to the medical charities of their choice, and those funds are being under-utilized. The privately donated money cited above for stem-cell research is a good example. Private charities and foundations are overflowing with money to give and have people more capable of judging the value of medical research projects better than DC bureaucrats. If medical research lost all federal funding today, donated money would quickly replace it. We could then break the pattern of forced charity through taxation, and funds for the needed research would no longer be disbursed or withheld based on political considerations.

With respect to government interference with such research efforts, some reasonable justification needs to be presented, and it hasn't been. All we get is insincere foot dragging for what are obviously unstated religious objections. In my opinion, any belief system that prohibits a technology that will save human life has to be considered suspect.

In the case of embryonic stem-cells, we are talking about a five-day old fertilized egg (a hollow ball of about 100 cells) that is customarily a left-over after an in-vitro fertilization procedure. I don't know of anyone who would characterize a five day old embryo as a human being. Now, at that point, we can either destroy that ball of cells, or we can draw off the stem-cells for research that has a high degree of promise in curing a wide range of serious human diseases. I have to wonder about the motivation of anyone would choose the former.

Larry

Post 39

Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 10:19pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Ah, yes. Thanks. It's coming back to me now, post #43 to Orion's "Controlling Language" piece, and from 5 whole days ago. How could you expect me to recall something I wrote that was lost in the mists of time like that? :^)

I wrote there:

"Today, though, the [Libertarian] party has become an eternal embarrassment to the point that I now find myself less repelled by the Republican Party than by the LP."

I can see why a fan of the LP would consider that a sharp rebuke. OTOH, it is not the ringing endorsement of the GOP that Ed Gillespie and George W. Bush were hoping for from me. :^)

Concerning Peikoff, I heard him endorse Clinton's 1st presidential run, and look how well that recommendation turned out! I had the dubious pleasure of living in Massachusetts for 13 years and saw Kerry's Senate runs. He is such an unspeakable power luster that I can't imagine him in the White House.

Adam is right, though. It is a swamp. I feel depressed.

-Bill

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