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Post 0

Wednesday, June 9, 2004 - 12:38amSanction this postReply
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Well,

I saw the movie recently, and despite my cynicism over it's having so many statistically improbable beautiful people, I liked it... although I'm not sure that Orlando Bloom's portrayal of the impetuously mindless Paris was appropriate.  But maybe it was.

Anyhow, what really psyched me about this movie, was that I saw an actor from the famous Eric Morris' acting class out in L.A... he had one or two speaking lines in the movie.  I saw him deliver a monologue in Morris' class, and it was pretty amazing.  Can't remember the actor's name, but he played one of the Trojans who was giving a battlefield update to Hector.  It was wild to see a real-life person appear on the big screen like that.


Post 1

Wednesday, June 9, 2004 - 4:54amSanction this postReply
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Good Summary Peter.

As you write, it is hard to know whether to recommend the film because the plot has both good and bad points. The good points are really good (No Gods shown taking part and the Achilles-Priam plotline intact), but the bad points are really bad!

I've already mentioned one of them on SOLOF, namely the killing of Menelaus and the portrayal of Paris and Helen as lovers.

This is bad because, if Helen had indeed happily gone back to Menelaus (as in the original), it would have given the whole war some credible meaning or accomplishment.

After rereading some parts of the Iliad and Odyssey again I also realise how important the contrast between Hector and Achilles was. You remember in the original, that Hector boasts about how he is not going to let the Greeks recover the body of Patroclus and he is going to "feed his body to the dogs of Troy". Achilles on the other hand, after wanting to do similar to Hectors body in his anger, takes pity on Priam and releases Hector's body for a proper funeral. However the film completely destroys this contrast, making Hector appear as if he is Mr Nice Guy who only wants "peace" with the Greeks. This leaves the audience, in my opinion, wondering what the hell the film is supposed to be about. Are they supposed to like Hector and dislike Achilles, or dislike Paris and Helen and like Priam? The film is awash with mixed messages and confusion.

What the hell went through the scriptwriters minds when they decided to cast Hector and Paris as the good guys and Menelaus and Agamemnon as the bad guys I just can't imagine? It seems they tried to keep the original plot more or less in place while putting their own plot changes unevenly on top - which in my opinion has disastrous consequences!




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Post 2

Wednesday, June 9, 2004 - 4:34pmSanction this postReply
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I for one loved this movie enough to see it twice. It is not a great film per se but I was pleasantly surprised by the changes to the plot and characters. I am not sure I would have liked it better if it was a more faithful interpretation of the Illiad, as some may have wished. Like Peter, I loved how the movie left out the gods and the mythology. My favorite scenes were also where Achilles explained to the priest of Apollo that it was the gods who envied man, and where Priam confronted Achilles after he killed his son (fine acting by Bradd Pitt and Peter O'Toole).

I will go out on a limb and say that I liked how Hector was portrayed and I found myself rooting for Hector in his duel against Achilles. And to think that I played as Achilles in a play based on the Illiad! To me, Hector (in Troy, not the Illiad) was symbolic of what a good soldier and military officer should be, even more so than Achilles. Unlike Achilles, he did not pursue glory in war, and he tried to broker peace between Troy and Sparta. Yet, he recognized that war can be a "necessary evil" when your family and country (i.e. your values) are threatened by those who would inititiate force to gain power over others. When he did fight, he did not fight like the Greeks, who at first tried to overwhelm the walls of Troy with sheer numbers, but he applied his mind to applying tactics that showed the Greeks a thing or two. I can imagine myself following a military officer like Hector into the gates of Hell itself.

I will also somewhat differ with everyone else in how the affair between Paris and Helen was portrayed. Paris was a lover, not a fighter, both in the Illiad and Troy, but I liked the scene where Helen told Paris that she preferred a man of passion over a man of force (though Paris did go back to his roots as Legolas in the end). I do not consider his decision to run off with Helen to be that foolhardy, assuming they did indeed love one another. It is safe to guess that divorcing a Spartan king was not feasible in those days, but a rational man who loses his woman to his better has no more reason for complaint than a business losing out to the competition. Menelaus, of course, was not portrayed as a rational man, and his decision to invade another country for a woman he does not even love is proof of that, but I like to think that rational men do not base too many of their decisions on what the irrational would do.

Last but not least, I have no objection whatsoever to the disproportionate representation of physically beautiful men and women (especially the latter). I am all for Romantic Realist art, which gives us a peek at reality at the best it could be, rather than Naturalism, which gives us a regression to the average.


Post 3

Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 2:44amSanction this postReply
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After some contemplation I think I have finally cracked the scriptwriters intentions and this is why the film stunk.
I think that they "allegorically" wrote an anti-Iraq war film.

The Greeks (US) and the Trojans (Iraq).
Agamemnon (Geroge W Bush) = He tells his inner circle that taking back Helen (WMD) is just an excuse for the war.
Achilles (the all-American GI hero) = Resents having to fight the war for Agamemnon (Geroge W Bush) and even kills him in the end. Drags Hector's (Sadam Husseins) body around (Abu Garab), but gives it back to Priam (Iraqi Government).
Paris (Osama bin Laden) = Shots Achilles through the heel (Terrorism) and takes off through the back door with Helen (WMD).

Message: US invades Iraq pretending to look for WMD, while Osama bin Laden benefits.

You see!!!! This film stinks!!!!!


Post 4

Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
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you are really reading way too much into what is clearly meant as a dumb summer blockbuster.

Post 5

Friday, June 11, 2004 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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Friday, 14 May, 2004, 09:53 GMT 10:53 UK

Pitt compares Troy with Iraq war
Troy stars Brad Pitt and Saffron Burrows have drawn parallels between the war in Iraq and the bloodshed between ancient nations in the film.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/3712037.stm


Post 6

Friday, June 11, 2004 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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Good tragedy, explained Aristotle, allows us to witness what might happen when good people make bad choices – often under pressure; sometimes ill-informed – and to experience the pity and fear of the protagonists as oft-unfortunate consequences unfold.
I need a little bit of clarification about this.

Should a tragedy portray a perfectly moral person, who makes a wrong decision and suffers because of this? It is surely possible for everyone to make wrong decisions. But if you are a really good person, you can await that your choices will lead to a positive outcome. This means, that you won't learn much about reality, if you portray that situation, which is not normal. That kind of tragedy would even express a kind of malevolent universe premise, since the author says, that you can't escape suffering no matter how good you are or how hard you try.  

Or should a tragedy portray an almost perfectly moral man, who makes a decision based on his vices instead of his virtues? To portray such a person, who experiences pain and loss because of his choices, is O.K. A tragedy of this kind shows, that it is important to improve all of the core virtues instead of only some of them. So you could learn something important about reality.

Do you agree or do you think, that I misinterpreted the nature of tragedy?
Frank R.     


Post 7

Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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Frank,

I think you're talking about the same thing in both questions... because aren't vices really choices that have become entrenched and automatic?


Post 8

Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 12:13amSanction this postReply
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I had the same question as Frank R in post 6. But if a person is "perfectly moral," why would they make a wrong decision anyway? Perhaps you mean they are perfectly moral, but temporarily become immoral? This doesn't make too much sense, however. I think I agree with you that the real tragedy is the almost-perfect man making bad choices, because he is so close, but ultimately fails.

I must apologize for being trivial, but it reminds me of another terrible movie: Dune! I haven't read the books so I can't speak about them. But it was incredibly funny while watching this silly movie to realize that "Arrakis" is Iraq and "spice" oil. Don't forget the evil "Shaddam." Very hilarious.

Meg Townsend


Post 9

Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 6:09amSanction this postReply
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I think I agree with you that the real tragedy is the almost-perfect man making bad choices, because he is so close, but ultimately fails.
Yes, that was exactly my point.

To Orion:

In the first case I was writing about errors of knowledge, while I was referring to errors of morality in the second case. It is possible to make the same error of knowledge again and again, if you don't get the missing information fast enough.
This can lead to a kind of bad habit, but I wouldn't call this a vice, since no error
of morality is involved. A moral man, who gets finally the missing piece of information wouldn't act on this habit anymore; at least, if he has enough time to form a decision.
Of course you can write an artwork about a man, who innocently makes a false decision, because he hadn't enough time to think about his habit, which he developed innocently, too. But I can't see, what the lesson of this artwork should be.

Frank R. 


Post 10

Monday, June 14, 2004 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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Meg,

Are you talking about the movie that came out in 1984 or the the television mini-series that came out in 2000? Regardless, both productions were based on a novel that was first published in 1971 (I happen to like the novel), years before Saddam Hussein was "elected" President of Iraq in 1979. In fairness, it is true that Frank Herbert (the author) did intend to compare "the spice melange" to oil, but it was foresight rather than hindsight (I think 1971 was years before the OPEC oil crunch). J.R.R. Tolkien once wrote that he did not like literature as allegory. He did not want his "Lord of the Rings" trilogy to be directly compared to, say, his experiences in World War I, but rather as a work that addresses universal themes or archetypes (to borrow from the mythologist Joseph Campbell). I think it is in that same spirit that Dune should be judged.

Byron


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Post 11

Monday, June 14, 2004 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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By the way, the 1984 Dune movie was terrible.

Post 12

Monday, June 14, 2004 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
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FRANK:

You asked:

"Should a tragedy portray a perfectly moral person, who makes a wrong decision and suffers because of this? ... Or should a tragedy portray an almost perfectly moral man, who makes a decision based on his vices instead of his virtues?"
 And then clarified:
"In the first case I was writing about errors of knowledge, while I was referring to errors of morality in the second case... Of course you can write an artwork about a man, who innocently makes a false decision, because he hadn't enough time to think about his habit, which he developed innocently, too. But I can't see, what the lesson of this artwork should be."
Excellent questions both, and as you might expect Aristotle answered them in his Poetics [1453 a 1-7].  As I said in the article, Aristotle contended that tragedy should evoke intellectual clarification; it does this by generating pity and fear for someone 'like ourselves,' who, through some hamartia falls from happiness to misery. Like the translation of katharsis, the translation of hamartia also has some disagreement - it is understood either as "intellectual error" or as a "tragic flaw." Obviously if a character falls because of a 'tragic flaw' there is little interest in the drama, but if the error is an intellectual one we can take a profound interest in the outcome.

As three examples, just think of the characters of Dagny and Hank in Atlas Shrugged, and Dominique Francon from The Fountainhead. Both Dagny and Hank make intellectual errors in their evaluation of the nature of the world, their own place in it, and for what actions one should feel guilt or pride. In Hank's case his error leads him to signing over to the government his life's work, at which we do indeed feel enormous pity. In the case of Dagny and Dominique, they are both guilty of intellectual errors that make them the enemies of the men they love. In large part, the drama in both of Rand's novels occurs  because of the conflict generated by these intellectual errors, and the drama is only resolved once the intellectual errors are resolved - both our own intellectual errors and those of the leading characters.  Hence the importance of Galt's Speech dramatically - it is truly the climax of Atlas Shrugged, and to skip it when reading Atlas betrays a very poor sense of the dramatic. :-)

Now, our interest in both these novels is aroused by the 'pity and fear' we feel for the protagonists. I'll now give you the situations that Aristotle excluded from tragic mimesis, and you might now understand why he did so (or of course you can check the Poetics yourself for the reasons). He excluded:
1) the fall of an unqualifiedly good human being from happiness to misery;
2) movement of an extremely evil human being from bad fortune to good fortune;
3 ) the fall of a deeply human being from good fortune to bad.

Consider for example that by this estimation the fall of Macbeth is tragedy, but that of Richard III is not.


MARCUS: 

You noted that you thought the film-makers intended the film to be understood as as a critique  of the War in Iraq. In another response, Byron noted  that Tolkien "did not want his "Lord of the Rings" trilogy to be directly compared to, say, his experiences in World War I, but rather as a work that addresses universal themes or archetypes (to borrow from the mythologist Joseph Campbell)."  I have to confess to Marcus that I too saw the 'references' in Troy to the War in Iraq, but as the references were so poorly done and in such bad taste I didn't think I wanted to draw any more attention to that end than it really deserved - ie., nothing at all.

If the film had been purely didactic it would just have been a boring film in extremely bad taste. However, as the film-makers only included this 'theme' as one of their pot-pourri of  'sub-texts' I thought it was possible to ignore it, and I did. :-)



Post 13

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 9:42amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the detailed answer, Peter.

Frank R.


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