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Post 0

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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I really loved this essay... Very well-written, and it stirred me up inside.

My main complaint about Reagan was that he pandered so much to religion...


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Post 1

Friday, June 11, 2004 - 5:32amSanction this postReply
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Orion wrote that his main complaint about Reagan was that he pandered to religion.

It appears that he wasn't pandering. It appears that he truly was a deeply religious man. However, to the best of my knowledge, he never attempted to justify any of his convictions or actions on the grounds of his religious faith -- which, when we are judging a politician, is all that really need concern us.

Barbara Branden

Post 2

Friday, June 11, 2004 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
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M(r)s. Branden,

I see your point, and it's well taken.  Thank you for the feedback.  I agree with you that a person's own private value system does not necessarily have to influence their actions as a professional, even as the President, and that the only bottom line that should be measured is whether or not they could ultimately do the job they undertook.

And now that I think back, he was not the one trying to blatantly integrate religion into government so much as his successors... But how would you classify his dealings with the Pope in terms of decommunizing western Europe?

I just remember how compelling Rand's praise for Reagan was while he was governor of California, and then how she later criticized him in his initial stages as president, due to what she described as his unacceptable level of involvement with religious interests... I read that in one of her non-fiction commentary books, perhaps The Voice of Reason...

I do, however, very much continue to admire what I've read was his Rand-inspired emphasis on people assuming a sensibility of personal accountability for their lives in a way that was apparently becoming forgotten on a large scale.


Post 3

Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 7:53amSanction this postReply
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Jim, this was stirring and I too enjoyed it.

Barbara, you say 'It appears that he truly was a deeply religious man'. From his funeral it would appear so. I stayed up all night watching it, and though I respect him, I didn't enjoy it. I had hoped to. Having come from a religious upbringing myself, I recognised much of it and found the 'weight' of it hard to fit to Reagan. I guess the thick atmosphere of episcopalian ritual didn't fit the 'cowboy'. The golden crosses, and candles and robes of privilege didn't fit the man who loved this-world America. It didn't fit the 'twinkling equanimity' Linz wrote of.

Hard for me to pin down, but Reagan's sense of life came not from those religious sources, and I'd guess they fitted into some hidden compartment called 'tradition' or 'my optimism amplified', and filed under 'for personal use only'.

I guess I find it hard to believe that that kind of service was really what he'd want for himself. Being lowered into the hill at Simi by Marines, seen off by an F14 fly-by, as the California sun sets, yes. And the riderless horse.

It's like he accepted he could get his own way after he'd got the formalities over with. In the true spirit of American 'Christianity'. :)

And all that talk of 'Lord'. I'd say his only 'lords' were what he thought needed doing, Jefferson perhaps, and Nancy certainly.



Post 4

Monday, June 14, 2004 - 4:24amSanction this postReply
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The pastor who officiated at the sunset ceremony was revolting. A ham, a phoney, a theatrical fraud, an attention-seeker who spoke as much about himself as he did about Ronnie ... a truly ghastly creature. But still, overall - & with our aversion to religion a given - it was a magnificent ceremony. It wouldn't hurt Objectivists to develop a bit of an affinity for meaningful ritual that speaks to the depths of our souls.

Linz

Post 5

Monday, June 14, 2004 - 5:22amSanction this postReply
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Sam,

I like what you said better than anything else said so far about Reagan. You obviously have the same struggle I have trying to make all the details fit the impression, but I think you have captured it.

You have a real flare for writing. Maybe that is why
this guy reminds me of you.

Do your know who he is (was)?


I did this little thing for comparison:




Regi

(Edited by Reginald Firehammer on 6/15, 5:33am)


Post 6

Monday, June 14, 2004 - 5:54amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

It wouldn't hurt Objectivists to develop a bit of an affinity for meaningful ritual that speaks to the depths of our souls.
 
Perhaps five times a day facing in the right direction?

Ritual is meaningless repetition which substitutes for purposeful activity by the unimaginative. In religion, ritual serves the purpose of reinforcing mindless superstition as a habit of mind and manners.

Some confuse ritual with social propriety. The first is obeisance, the second is etiquette. There is a difference between genuflecting, and a bow of courtesy. The first is required by social superiors, the second is given freely in recognition of another's humanity or equality.

If people demand rituals, let them do what I do; I'll be damned if I'll do what they do.

Regi



Post 7

Monday, June 14, 2004 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
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Regi,

Now you've stumped me, in your response to Lindsay... I thought you would be jonesing for ritual.  After all, you have taken what seems to me to be a very consistent pro-religion stance on things. 

The basic difference between religion and philosophy is that religion incorporates rituals into daily living, right?  I mean, both are about finding a way of living that makes sense to the user... isn't it ritual that makes religion differ from mere philosophy?

I would have thought you'd be all for ritual.

(Edited by Orion Reasoner on 6/14, 2:53pm)


Post 8

Monday, June 14, 2004 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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Orion,

I cannot imagine why you are surprised by my response to Linz. You cannot possibly have understood what I have posted elsewhere if you think that.

Anyway, you said: The basic difference between religion and philosophy is that religion incorporates rituals into daily living, right?
 
In the first place, there is not all the much difference between religion and most philosophy. More than half the so-called philosophers in history have been steeped in the same superstitious nonsense as any theologian in any religion, and many philosophers were theologians.

There is only one difference between objective philosophy and religion, and the difference is, objective philosophy, of which the best example today is Objectivism, proceeds entirely on the basis that the only source of knowledge is reasoning from the evidence. All religion and most philosophy admits some mysticism, the belief that reason alone is not the only means to knowledge, either because it is inadequate to the job (Berkeley, Hume, Kant, etc.) or that there is some other means to knowledge, like revelation or inspiration (all religions, religious philosophies, and all subjectivist or naturalist philosophies).

In a nutshell, the difference between true objective philosophy and religion and most other philosophies is credulity, commonly called faith.

I reject all views that cannot be defended by objective non-contradictory reason from the evidence. (Which is one reason I reject almost everything that goes by the name of ,"psychology," which even many Objectivists fall for. It is just brimming over with non-concepts invented by the Freuds, Sigmund and Anna.) The religion of today, by which every outrage is justified, and every virtue condemned is psychology.

If you still think my views are "traditional" or conformable to ritual, take a look at my The Autonomist Notebook. (It opens a new window, you won't loose your place.)

I'm not an Objectivist, I'm an autonomist. Objectivists are a little too ritualistic and conformist for me. ;>)

Regi


(Edited by Reginald Firehammer on 6/14, 5:20pm)


Post 9

Monday, June 14, 2004 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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Regi,

Well, I just read your post, and I would say that your criticisms of Objectivists apply to Objectivists per se, not to those who strive for the practice of objectivity.

Much of the dispute here, as is so often the case in life in general, really boils down to differences in interpretations of what certain key words mean...  You need a controlled vocabulary from the outset, or you'll always be struggling to clarify what you and the other guy really mean, which will end up with both parties agreeing on the establishment of a controlled vocabulary anyways.  So why not cut out the middle man?

I bring this up because you use the term "faith", which Rand routinely went into a tailspin over, for its religious connotations, preferring instead the term "conviction".  I happen to think that "trust" is a fine word.

Anyhow, I will check out your link... But I also know that human beings are not totally self-sufficient; we do need many crucial things can only be gotten from outside ourselves in order to stay happy and healthy, such as essential amino acids and human touch.


Post 10

Monday, June 14, 2004 - 8:42pmSanction this postReply
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Orion,

I think I am causing you unnecessary trouble. You said, Well, I just read your post, and I would say that your criticisms of Objectivists apply to Objectivists per se, not to those who strive for the practice of objectivity.

Oh dear, I was not seriously criticising Objectivists. That's that reason for this: ;>).

If that is too subtle for you, you will probably not appreciate The Autonomist Notebook.

Now, I have almost no idea what the following means: But I also know that human beings are not totally self-sufficient; we do need many crucial things can only be gotten from outside ourselves in order to stay happy and healthy, such as essential amino acids and human touch.
 
We certainly need to eat, if we want to stay alive, but what has that got to do with self-sufficiency. One who is self-sufficient will have no problem acquiring food, without anyone else's help or contribution. We cannot live without food, but no one has ever died of a lack of "human touch."

Now, the fact is, no one who is not self-sufficient has earned the right to association with any other human being. If one is not fully competent to to live their life by their own efforts, the only thing they have to offer anyone else are their failings and needs. To paraphrase BS, "people who need people," are parasites.

If I want the pleasure of, "human touch," whatever that is, I better have earned it, else I am enjoying the unearned, that the guilt of the unearned pleasure will be more painful than any deprivation of "human touch," I might experience.

Regi


Post 11

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 3:21amSanction this postReply
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Linz wrote:

"It wouldn't hurt Objectivists to develop a bit of an affinity for meaningful ritual that speaks to the depths of our souls."

I agree. I did not intend to slight the ceremony, or ceremony, in any way in my post. I was reflecting on the meaning, in particular, of the Washington service, and what I see Reagan's life meaning.



Post 12

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 3:25amSanction this postReply
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Thanks Regi. I'm afraid I can't see anything of those picture comparisons you've posted. They come up as missing links.

Post 13

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 5:35amSanction this postReply
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Sam,

I fixed the pictures. Sorry, I got fooled by the "preview," which worked fine, of course, since it found the images on my computer. Duh!

Regi


Post 14

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 8:44amSanction this postReply
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Regi,

With regards to my comment on self-sufficiency... sorry about that; it was late, and I was tired.  I should have stated that those comments were in response to my noting the term, "autonomist"... I saw the comment about parasitism and then that term, and I perceived a danger of overextending the notion of autonomy into unrealistic territory.

But I do have to call you on one thing, that you probably have no way of knowing about, but I do...

When you say that "no one has ever died from a lack of human touch", that's very likely, actually false.  There is research in the last 10-20 years, called "touch research", that has primarily been headed by a University of Miami Medical School researcher named Tiffany Field, Ph.D, in conjunction with researchers from places such as Duke and Princeton... And while it may sound simpering and weak perhaps, it is actually very important, valid stuff.

Dr. Field's research has found that infants -- particularly premature infants -- who are not sufficiently handled in a close and relatively constant way, experience "failure to thrive", and frequently die as a result.  I'm not sure whether she attributes Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) to this or if it's the same phenomenon, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

Her research finds that human touch is actually a basic requirement of our health.  Humans and animals which are touched experience the following physiological loop:  The touch receptors in the skin relay signals back to the brain, signalling the hypothalamus to cause an overall bodily switch to the "rest and repair" mode, otherwise known as the parasympathetic mode... the mode in which immune, reproductive, digestion, and growth functions switch on.  

To achieve this requires the activation of such glands as the pituitary (at the base of the brain) and the adrenal (on the top of the kidneys) glands, which mediate these functions.  Until this mode is activated, the body stays in the sympathetic mode, which is the "fight or flight" mode... in this phase, all the functions that occur during the parasympathetic mode... the immune and growth functions, and so on, do not occur.  This is why creatures kept in a constant state of fear and vigilance get sicker more often and experience stunted growth.

And be aware, the immune system does not just fight bacteria and viruses... its job is also to kill off cancer cells as they inadvertently pop into existence; perpetually vigilant and stressed creatures also die of cancer more often, for the reasons I've already stated above. 

In addition, growth is something that should always be happening in the healthy body, at a rate that matches or exceeds cellular death and wear-down.  This is why routine touch is such a vital but little-known ingredient to human health.

Now, I do agree to some extent with what you say when you say:

"If I want the pleasure of, "human touch," whatever that is, I better have earned it, else I am enjoying the unearned, that the guilt of the unearned pleasure will be more painful than any deprivation of "human touch," I might experience."
 
Yes, receiving affectionate treatment from someone who has little but contempt for you, or for you have contempt for, is not pleasurable, but creepy.  It may very likely be actually painful to bear.  But, in certain cases where a person is superficially unpleasant, because of shoddy treatment by others or uncontrollable life circumstances, but essentially decent just below the surface, I do not think that they should be shunned and denied something like touch, which would soothe them and allow to come forth, their latent, nobler qualities.  Such intervention might be ambulatory or even critical.   

But, to come back to the major point of this post... yes, it is probably very likely that many people die from a lack of human touch.  We've just never known what to significantly attribute it.



Post 15

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 3:05pmSanction this postReply
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Orion,

Thanks for the info, but I'm not buying.

I'm quite familiar with the endocrine system and autonomic nervous system. I'm also familiar with most of the latest research. I'm not only not convinced, I regard most of this kind research itself spurious.

I know you do not see it, at least not yet, but this "touch" stuff is just more quackery.

Here are some links on "touch therapy."

There are some other things you said that sound kind of, "quacky." You might like to check out Quack Watch for some of the other things you have accepted from the, "psychiatric," world.  

There are more links here, on The Autonomist.

These are no meant to convince you. They're just in case you wonder why I'm a hard sell.

Regi 



Post 16

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 11:32pmSanction this postReply
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I saw those links... Those links are all about things like "aromatherapy" and "laying on of hands".  That's not what I'm talking about, perhaps because I didn't specify "massage" instead of mere touch. 

What Dr. Field primarily works in, is massage therapy on pre-term infants and others.  She has published research and written several books, one titled Touch

If you like, you can look for her work, instead of aromatherapy and crystal healing and all of that.  Beyond that, I lose all interest in "selling" it any further.


Post 17

Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 7:00amSanction this postReply
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Regi, I don't recognise him, but I think I'm much better looking. And I certainly don't sanction moustaches. Right down there with the Marxist mini-skirt. :)


Post 18

Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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Sam,

Regi, I don't recognise him, but I think I'm much better looking.
 
I certainly agree.

He did not always have a moustache. The only resemblance I really saw is more in the character than the distinct features--a look of strength and dignity with a touch of adventure.

It's Earnest Hemingway.

(I don't think you'd look good in a miniskirt anyway. Maybe a kilt or Greek  vra'ka?)

Regi 



Post 19

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 3:00pmSanction this postReply
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I've only just noticed a particular facet of this discussion. Linz said:
"It wouldn't hurt Objectivists to develop a bit of an affinity for meaningful ritual that speaks to the depths of our souls.

 
To which I say whole-heartedly: "Hear! Hear!" but to which Regi objected, a little peremptorily I might say:
"Perhaps five times a day facing in the right direction?

Ritual is meaningless repetition which substitutes for purposeful activity by the unimaginative."



Is ritual really just "meaningless repetition"? "A substitute for purposeful activity"? Is it really only for the "unimaginative"? I have to say, Regi, I agree completely with Lindsay, and I disagree with you on all three of your pronouncements.


Ritual may certainly involve those things - and in truth much of the religious stiff does - but the truth is that it doesn't have to. Ritual CAN be a way of tying ourselves to reality; a way of reminding ourselves what is important, enjoyable and meaningful to us as human beings. The obvious religious rituals surrounding birth, death and marriages (hatch, match and despatch) recognise that ritual is important on these occasions to allow us to properly celebrate, grieve or to share in a friend's happiness. Each of these rituals has a crucial secular import  - the ritual helps to remind us that this event is an important milestone in our lives and those of people special to us; that it is worth marking and celebrating. Done properly, these events should peak to our souls - if they don't, they ain't being done properly.

Good rituals do exactly that - they remind us of things that are important to us as man qua man; or as important to us individually according to our own value-judgements (do you see the link with our need for art?). I expect that you yourself might well have 'coming home' rituals like patting the dog, taking a beer from the fridge and scratching your nuts while taking in the view out the window - rituals that help you to shake off the cares of the day and get ready for a good night. I bet you also participate in 'welcoming rituals' when friends arrive at your home, and also 'leaving rituals'  when you kick them out - these rituals are no less important than the others you claim to despise, but I bet you enjoy all of them.

Speaking of art, as I did, in many ways the job of architecture is to speak to the depth of our souls by building in our essential human rituals and celebrating them. Rituals like welcoming, bathing, dining, conversing &c. The job of architecture is to build in important human rituals and to celebrate them - that's one of the important ways that architecture speaks to our souls. If it doesn't do it, it ain't doing it right.

In short then, far from being a substitute for purposeful activity, ritual offers the purposeful to keep an eye on their purpose. To paraphrase yourself, only the unimaginative would see all ritual as meaningless repetition.

You've been sprung. :-)

(Edited by Peter Cresswell on 6/17, 3:07pm)

(Edited by Peter Cresswell on 6/17, 3:08pm)


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