RoR: Forum

Joy, thanks so much for writing this article! I'd like to join you in giving a salute to this excellent show. I agree with everything you said about it, and I am extremely thankful that such a wonderful work of art as this has been created, even if so far it is not as widely appreciated as it should be. I have found Joss Whedon to be a brilliant writer/director, whose work I think should be appealing to Soloists because of the heroic characters he creates, and because of the intense emotions he manages to convey through these characters. You're right that none of Joss's characters are caricatures; each one of them is treated with respect, and meant to be taken seriously. Like all of his art, Firefly is a show that I think is meant to be and should be taken seriously. I have rarely found better sources of emotional fuel than this and Joss's other creations. (Joss is most famous for having created the show Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a show which uses a fantastic premise as a means to tell a great story about some truly inspiring characters. Most of the "fantasy" kind of events in this show are metaphors for issues that arise in real life.)

Joy, thanks again for writing this article!

Post 1

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 6:12am

Excellent article, Joy. If Firefly was available on DVD I'd grab some episodes, as I don't have cable TV (pay TV isn't worth the price for just a few good shows.)

Post 2

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 7:18am

Hi there guys!

Pantaliamon, thank you for your kind words. I too was a fan of Buffy and later Angel despite my relative lack of interest in the whole vampire theme and superhero powers thing. The characters were so compelling, and they were presented in such situations that called on using reason, and fully explored the important concept of justice among other things.

Last night my husband and I watched the season opener yet again and I suddenly felt that what I had written simply couldn't express enough of how good the show is. I felt I had left so much out! LOL! The nuances, the plot twists, the interactions, the direction and editing! Gorram it! To do justice to the show I would have to write a book! :)

Even having seen the real season opener a dozen times already, it is still rich, I still find new little things, I still feel all that I felt the first time I saw it. It is fuel for me as well and I recall when I saw Firefly the first time ... thinking ... this is how I want my writing to be. I want to be able to evoke these reactions, be this witty, create such intense characters, capture the essence of life, struggles, success, and learn to be 'laconic' ... I can be terse .. really I can. LOL!

Matt, I'm hoping all the episodes come out on DVD as well! I would buy it even if I had to give up something else to afford it. *grin* We only have a few episodes on tape as we had a DVR/Digital Cable thingie that 'blew up' and lost half our episodes. :(

I have to run out for a bit, but later today I'll post some links that will give some information about the status of Firefly, links to their discussion boards and a couple of other really cool links we've found. The fans of Firefly are a great bunch of people too! Tim sent the link to this article here to them so hopefully they'll check us out and find some kindred spirits here on SOLOHQ!

Joy :)

Post 3

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 7:30am

What a brilliant article, Joy! I highly enjoyed your sense of irony and bitter sarcasm. I was a little confused by the first sentence, but then there was this wonderful subtle but top-notch euphemism of "quietly popular" that got the things rolling. Quietly popular - that's just great. From now on I will call Bin Laden "quietly harmless", Clinton "quietly faithful" and Nixon "quietly trustworthy". See, it works, thanks for the idea.

But that's only the start for the best series of sarcastic punches in Firefly's face I've ever seen. Tight dialogue, outstanding characters, deeply philosophical meaning ... oh, please stop, you already got me rolling on the floor, it's almost too much. But you can't stop, can you? Everthing's been built up for the line that ultimately killed me: "these women aren't caricatures". See - I'm dead now, may my still laughing soul rest in peace.

What? This wasn't sarcasm? It's a serious praising of Firefly? Sorry, I can't think so. Call me na�ve, but I prefer to have a high opinion of other human beings. If this article was meant seriously, the author either has an IQ below room temperature or shows a lack of realism that needs immediate professional help (unless the author is 5 years old and it's just an excusable child-like fantasy).

I don't want to be offending and therefore I have to assume that my interpretation of Joy's article is correct. So let me thank Joy for this refreshening and unexpected laugh, what a great way to start the new year. Its harsh realism even outdoes a recent reply from an UPN affiliate (when asked about the chances that UPN picks up Firefly):

"Because the program failed to attract an audience nationally, there is really no incentive at this time for another network to have any interest in continuing the series."

And it was even funnier than my favorite Firefly quote from The Washington Post:

"Losers: Firefly. After keeping this sci-fi cowboy drama on its schedule far longer than it deserved, Fox suits stopped taking their stupid pills; now that they've fully recovered, they've axed the series"

Happy recovery, my dear Firefly fans. :-)

Post 4

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 8:22am

Kirsch, you're not funny. As a matter of fact, you are being offensive, as I know that Joy enjoys Firefly and would not have taken time to write about a series that did not interest her. As for the phrase "quietly popular"; have you ever heard of word of mouth? Or "underground hit"? How about "cult classic"?

Post 5

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 9:11am

Kirsch... Making friends and influencing people... Sheesh. Good article, Joy. I don't watch television much, but I might just check out Firefly now. Sounds like fun. I pretty much stopped watching TV entirely when MST3k went away. What network is it on?

Post 6

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 11:44am

Hi John,

It WAS on Fox and is now in the process of finding a new home. UPN has expressed an interest as UPN currently carries another of Whedon's shows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer which was rated very highly on various places that poll such things.

I was actually amazed to find Firefly on Fox as Fox generally only runs incomprehensible shows like the one scheduled to begin shorthly that deals with tricking 20 women into believing some construction worker making 19k a year is really some millionaire. I can't even tell if that is supposed to be one episode of something or worse, a series. LOL!

And yes, I'm getting ready to post links to Firefly for those fans interested in keeping track or even trying their hand at some activism to keep Firefly flying.

Oh, and T. Kirsh, it is generally the accepted practice on this forum to actually speak intelligently, not just spew forth gibberish. If you dislike Firefly, or disagree with my assessment it would be helpful to know exactly WHY. You failed to list any reasons why you consider Firefly a poor show. And quotes from the popular press don't count as reasons.

I'm very interested in knowing why YOU don't like Firefly, what you consider its faults to be.

As for not wanting to be offending, well, you managed it very well despite not having that intention. Imagine how offending you could be if you really tried. LOL!

Joy :)

Post 7

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 12:54pm

Okay, here are the links I promised compliments of my husband! Thank you dear. :)

-=-=-=--=-=-=-=--=-=-=-

Main Firefly assistance program:

http://www.fireflysupport.com/index.html

Fox's boards
http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/start

Tim Minear's webpage - Writer, Director and Executive Producer of FIREFLY
http://timminear.net/

Josh doesn't have a page, but posts here:
http://www.buffistas.org/

this is the link to where Josh talks about the cancellation
http://www.buffistas.org/showthread.php?thread_id=13&post_id=7717

Another Fan Site
http://www.fireflyfans.net

Positive reviews of Firefly. *grin*

http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue282/screen3.html

http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/reviews/2002-09-18-firefly_x.htm

Enjoy!

Joy :)

Post 8

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 1:47pm

Hi Joy,

Thanks for spotlighting Firefly. It was shabbily treated by FOX - bad time slot, mediocre promotion, not showing the two hour pilot and showing the episodes out of order! It's actually surprising it lasted for 11 episodes with that kind of support.

You described the show and the characters so vividly. I think anyone trying to get a friend hooked on Firefly should simply let them read your excellent article.

Hopefully, you've inspired others to support the show and contact UPN in hopes that they will pick up the show.

Thanks again,

Misti

Post 9

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 1:52pm

I fear that UPN may not be interested in the email that a fan posted at TWOP from his Detroit UPN afficliate is real:

---- start quote
I sent a polite and short email to my local UPN affiliate asking them to consider picking up Firefly, and didn't expect much of anything back, but I just got this in my inbox - I'm curious to know what you all think of the tone.

____________
We have received your email message regarding the Fox series, "Firefly."

Currently the UPN network has quite a few programs in development. And we are sorry to tell you that we are not aware of any plans to pick up "Firefly."

Unfortunately the cancellation of a television program is based on the ratings it receives, and since the sci-fi drama "Firefly" was the lowest-rated program on the four major networks, Fox canceled it. Because
the program failed to attract an audience nationally, there is really no incentive at this time for another network to have any interest in continuing the series.

In the Detroit market, "Firefly" received a 3 rating. As a comparison, the program that the majority of Detroiters watched at 8pm on Friday night was "Providence" with a 10 rating and even with a 10 rating, the program is off the NBC schedule and NBC won't decide until January if they want to bring "Providence" back next Fall. So you can see that a program like "Firefly" that ranked 99th out of 136 programs the week of December 1st, and was the 19th watched program out of 20 on Fox, doesn't have much of a chance for renewal.
____________

That was it. No signiture. It came from a station email address.

Curious to know what you all would think if you got that email in your box. My first reaction was "Wow, does he (if it is a he) not like sci-fi. Or Firefly. Or possibly both." Anyone else?
----- end quote

Post 10

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 4:38pm

Hi there everyone,

I don't intend this discussion to focus on whether or not Firefly will be picked up or how it's viewed or rated by other media as this forum
(SOLOHQ) is a philsophy forum. Well, mostly. *grin*

The philosophical elements in this show are of particular interest to me.

With that focus in mind, I'm going to go ahead and do what I didn't do in my article -- list specific examples of why this show is appealing to my own sense of life.

As I've written, Captain Reynolds was a freedom fighter opposing the Alliance forces. The Alliance won however and rather than accept their
control over his life, he chose to become an independent trader in the farther reaches of civilized space. In the opener, as he is battling
with Alliance forces, he is shown fingering a silver cross around his neck.

Later in the show, which has moved to current times the Serenity is forced to take on passengers to help pay the bills, they take on a preacher -- a shepard named Book. They gather for their first meal in the ship's dining room and Book sits, clasps his hands together and asks "Captain, mind if I say grace?"

Malcolm replies, "Only if you say it out loud." Book is surprised, but doesn't argue and presumably says grace to himself. :)

Later on, there is much debate about what to do with a passenger - Simon. Simon signed on as a passenger on the Serenity, as did another
man who later revealed himself to be an Alliance Officer present to arrest Simon. The Alliance Officer ended up shooting Kaylee (Serenity's
engineer) in his attempt to get Simon and the officer was eventually subdued.

Simon explains his tale of woe regarding his sister and how the Alliance messed with her mind.

MAL: Yeah, it's a tale of woe, very stirring but in the meantime you've heaped a world of trouble on me and mine.

SIMON: I never thought that --
MAL: No, I don't imagine you thought. In consequence of which we got a kidnapped federal officer on board, we got the Alliance hard on our trail and Kaylee...
He doesn't say it.
[more dialogue, ending with --
JAYNE: So what do we do?

Mal: The job. We finish the job. I sent word to Patience, she's waiting for us. We circle round to Whitefall, make the deal, get out. Keep flying.

SIMON: What about us?

Mal looks at him a moment.

MAL: Kaylee comes through, you and your sister'll get off in Whitefall.

SIMON: If she doesn't come through?

MAL: Then you're getting off a mite sooner.

BOOK: That'd be murder.

MAL: Boy made a decision.

INARA: He didn't shoot her.

JAYNE: No, but somebody else on this boat did and I'm scratching my head as to why we ain't dealt with him. (He's referring to the Alliance
Officer/mole that shot Kaylee in his attempt to get Simon.)

And now the room gets louder, people start talking over each other...

ZOE: Kill a fed? Can you think of a stupider thing to do?

JAYNE: He can I.D. us all.

SIMON: You wanna throw me out the airlock, fine, but River's not a part of this.

WASH: Can we maybe vote on the whole murdering people issue?

MAL: We don't vote on my ship because my ship is not the rutting town hall!

More dialogue ensues, each crewmember and passenger trying to 'reason' with Captain Reynolds.

Finally he calls an end to it with these words:

Shut the hell up -- in Chinese. *grin*

And then:

"The way it is is the way it is. We got to deal with what's in front of us."

Kaylee does indeed survive because Simon is in fact a brilliant doctor and because of many other circumstances. And they don't get left behind
on Whitefall. But that's another tangent.

What is important here is that the Captain does what he must, based on the facts of reality, not sidestepping the necessity of difficult choices. While he could have wilted in the face of Simon's tale of woe and compromised -- he didn't. He didn't abdicate his responsibility for the choice by putting it to vote. He took responsibility and action, as he saw fit, based on the facts, not wishful thinking.

This doesn't mean he was happy about it, but he valued the safety of himself, his ship, his crew and other passengers above the value of two
other passengers of whom he knew nothing. It takes a tough man, and a rational man to do that in the face of the 'opposition' of the rest of
his crew and passengers. Thankfully, he had new options as other events unfolded, but there is no doubt he would have done exactly as he decided
at that time. Captain Reynolds does not mess around! :)

The last example (honestly, there are sooooo many!) I'll use is a particular favorite of mine as it deals with the idea of 'luck'. :)

The crew of the Serenity, having faced all kinds of problems with the Alliance mole, the coming transaction on Whitefall that Reynolds accurately guesses will lead to an exchange of bullets, as their last transaction did, and a hair raising brush with Reavers finds the crew having to decide what to do once more ...

Zoe tells the Captain that they don't have to deal with Patience, the Captain insists they do.

Zoe suggests they try their luck on the outer moons rather than dealing with Patience.

Captain Reynolds rounds on her, growling.

"Our luck?!"

"You notice anything particular about our luck these past few days? Any kind of pattern? You depend on luck, you end up on the drift -- no
fuel, no prospects, begging for Alliance make-work. And towed out to the scrapbelt. That ain't us. Not ever."

That exchange just speaks for itself. *grin* Besides, I think I'm hitting my posting limit here .... LOL!

To close, I had to add this last bit, the last few lines of the season opener -- again, from a script I found on the net :):

SIMON
(a beat, then)
So where do you plan on dumping us?

MAL: There's places you might be safe. You want the truth, though, you're probably safer on the move.
(turns to him)
And we never stop moving.

SIMON: I'm confused. No wait -- I think maybe you're confused.

MAL: It may have become apparent to you, the ship could use a medic. You ain't weak. I don't know how bright you are, top three percent, but you ain't weak and that's not nothing. You live by my rule, keep your sister from doing anything crazy, you could maybe find a place here.
Til you find a better.

SIMON: I'm trying to put this as delicately as I can... How do I know you won't kill me in my sleep?

MAL: You don't know me, son. So let me explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be
armed.

SIMON: (smiles) Are you always this sentimental?

MAL: I had a good day.

SIMON: You had the law on you, criminals and savages... half the people on the ship have been shot or wounded including yourself, and you're
harboring known fugitives.

Mal looks out at the black sky.

MAL: We're still flying.

SIMON: That's not much.

Mal answers, almost to himself...

MAL: It's enough.

Post 11

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 4:43pm

Hi Misti,

Thank you for the kind note and you know I'll be wishing the best for Firefly and of course, doing a bit of activism for it. *grin*

Joy :)

Post 12

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 5:28pm

Matthew,

"have you ever heard of word of mouth?"

Funny that you mention it, since one of the reasons why Firefly tanked so dramatically in the ratings was exactly this: word of mouth. About the general quality (or the lack thereof) of Joss Whedon's recent work, for instance.

How about "cult classic"?

I love cult classics, like the movies of Edward D. Wood. Do you really think Firefly is /that/ bad?

Joy,

I don't think I have to explain why I dislike Firefly, because you did it so much better than I could ever do (and believe me, I've tried). Just read your own article again - I criticise every single point you praise. Yes, it was meant to be offensive, but you took it with a LOL - my deepest respect for that reaction!

Back to business:

If you /really/ liked Firefly, you're doing something wrong here, JMO. The show is a dead horse, that's a fact. Even without the bad worth of mouth (which includes the boycott of the show from two well organized fan groups), it doesn't have the chance of a snowball in hell to find a new home (this comes from very reliable sources close to Mutant Enemy - Whedon himself seems to be the only one who isn't ready to face reality). The main reason for the demise of Firefly can be found in the ratings. Not the total number of viewers (which is a desaster in itself), but the fact that the show lost viewers during almost all its airings. Fox did everything a network can do to promote and help the show, but most of the viewers who gave it a chance didn't like it and switched away again. This won't change with a better time slot or some more millions to hype the show - this is a problem of the show's quality itself.

Yes, it's the quality. A few years ago, when Whedon's shows were on The WB and Whedon was still capable to produce quality tv, BtVS and Angel had a lot more viewers on their small network than FF had on Fox. This shows that there /is/ an audience for quality tv, an audience that knows Whedon's name and should have been eager to watch his new creation. Which was the main reason for Fox's development deal with Whedon that made Firefly possible, by the way. The awful truth is that Firefly didn't manage to convince enough of Whedon's own fans to justify its continuation. Either that, or there are just not enough Whedon fans left after his destruction of BtVS since its move to UPN. For clarification: When I use the term "Whedon fans", I mean everyone who likes his personal style of characterization and story telling - including those who never heard of his name.

Sorry, but I came to the conclusion that it's more likely that there's something wrong with the show than with the audience. :-)

And that's why I think that over-the-top praising of Firefly doesn't help at all. The show is dead, both other shows of Mutant Enemy are dying (their ratings are awful), it's time for Whedon and company to /learn/ from their mistakes. You enjoyed Firefly, so I assume that you'd like to see something similar again, preferably from the same author(s). Imagine I had to decide about investing money into a new show from Whedon. And I read your article: There was /nothing/ wrong with Firefly, it was wonderful, brilliant and perfect in every single detail. No way to improve it. But at the same time it was the biggest commercial desaster of the season. My decision? No cent for a new show. If there isn't room for improvement, it will be the same failure again.

It's funny, isn't it? Right now, even brutal criticism can be more helpful than a heartful praising. If you want more tv like Firefly, more from Whedon, from Mutant Enemy, it's time to face the awful truth, to look Mr. Nielsen into his beady eyes and to think about what actually can help. In the current situation, they need every help they can get...

Post 13

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 5:39pm

Kirsch, let me ask you a dead-serious question: is commercial success the sole measure of artistic quality? Is the lack of commercial success the sole measure?

The reason Joy praises Firefly with such passion is that she genuinely enjoyed the series. I don't watch TV at all, so I personally have little idea what the fuss is about. Do you? Have you seen an episode (or two) of Firefly? Did you take time to pick apart what you saw and decide for yourself what you liked or disliked?

Or are you only judging the series on its Nielsen ratings which, like most other statistics, can be distorted?

Post 14

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 7:11pm

I would also point out to Mr. Kirsch, in case it hasn't already been mentioned, that Firefly stumbled in the beginning largely due to Fox's treatment of the show. Rather than airing the pilot, they forced Mr. Whedon to rush through what were ultimately two rather synthetic and uninspired opening episodes. As we all know, a show depends on its first episodes to gather an audience; without the pilot, the show had to battle up a steeper curve than other shows. Also, because the rumor went out that the pilot was axed because it was "murky and boring," as one critic put it, it seemed to follow that there was something wrong with the show -- when in fact there was nothing wrong with it, except for the interference of Fox executives.

Mutant Enemy is comprised of a very talent group of people who know how to produce high-quality television. They continually improve overall, even if they do not always succeed -- art is like that. Have you ever written anything? Most shows fail, for a variety of reasons; it does not naturally follow that those behind the show need to "look Mr. Nielsen into his beady eyes and to think about what actually can help" them. They will continue to critique themselves, as they've always done, because that's what artists do.

Post 15

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 7:23pm

A new Joss Whedon fan site (built by Caroline of prolific.org) features a quote from Joy and a link to her article on SOLOHQ.

http://whedonesque.com

Post 16

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 7:32pm

Hello Delavagus! :)

I couldn't agree more. Of the television I watch, I particularly recall the Mutant Enemy logo at the end of my favorite shows and quality isn't immediately recognized or rewarded. There are examples throughout history that remind us of this. Brilliance is often acknowledged very much after the fact .. which is quite sad. Especially in light of such tripe as is aired on the major networks and on Fox in general.

*sigh* I don't get it, but it isn't a new or unique issue. The audience brings so much of themselves into the interpretation of art ... the more self aware a person is, the more he/she projects into what they see in the world .. so ..

Okay, I won't go there now as I'm getting ready to get some sleep! LOL!

And yes, long live every kind of artist! We've a few on SOLO and they sure light up my life as well. :)

Joy :)

Post 17

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 8:19pm

Just found your website and article tonight. I agree with the author and will really miss Firefly if it is not picked up. Frankly, I watch few shows on tv anymore - Buffy, Angel, and Firefly pretty much sums it up.

And I did wonder what was going on with Firefly and Fox - seems like Fox did everything to undermine it (not showing the pilot, rescheduling it due to playoffs, showing episodes out of order, not promoting it). I'm not particularly knowledgeable about how things work on tv, but it does seem there is less and less every year that I will bother to watch. Am I just a viewer with really narrow interests/tastes or is there a huge crowd of people like me who are pretty much turned off given what tv has to offer these days?

Post 18

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 8:36pm

Hi Akanikki! :)

You are not alone! To be honest, my husband and I are fans of Firefly first :), but also Buffy, Angel for a short time, and Babylon 5 -- another great show that at least ran for five years. :)

There have been other shows we've watched occasionally, but we stick to FoodTV and HGTV (Home and Garden). We are avid cooks and we own a 100+ year old home and had to learn how to fix it up in a hurry!

And yes, you are quite right about Fox not supporting Firefly ... rescheduling for the playoffs? I wanted to escape the playoffs! Sheesh!

I'm sure I'm missing some good shows, but there is so much crap that I do get tired of having to sort through it all. I don't think I've watched one of the 'major' networks since childhood! LOL!

In some ways, maybe the lack of TV is a good thing. Makes us seek solace in more productive entertainment. LOL! I don't even know if I'm kidding or not. :)

Joy :)

Post 19

Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 11:08pm