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Post 20

Sunday, April 1, 2007 - 3:09pmSanction this postReply
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for better ease in discussion, here's it reposted......




Contemplation takes many forms, from the sometimes “lead me by the nose” approach of literature and – emotionally – sometimes music, to the “slam” effects of paintings and sculptures, with a lot of sublimity in between. All, however, as works of Art, are united in their intelligibility.



What, for instance, tho, is intelligible about music?



As Rand pointed out, we gain our knowledge thru the use of concepts – that is, by means of abstractions. But out cognition, however, begins with the ability to perceive. “Art brings man's concepts to the perceptual level of his consciousness and allows him top grasp them directly, as if they were percepts,” she added. As I said earlier, this means that a work of Art takes the abstractions of metaphysics and makes them into specifics – the concretes. Now, concretes are usually thought of in terms of entities – yet Rand, writing in her Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, has said that concretes subsume not only entities, but attributes, actions, and relationships. To me, this includes situations as well – what, I would say, in terms of music, as emotional situations. This brings me to conclude that Rand did indeed make a error in assuming that Helmholtz's use of sensations meant that music is auditorily experienced as sensations, not precepts. But, as Davird Kelley pointed out in his Evidence of the Senses, all sounds are properly to be regarded as percepts, as he goes on to explain their feature as being an attribute of specifics in an auditory context. The harmonic sounds, as tones, then get integrated into what is called a melody, the fundamental aspect of music.



Aside from her misdirected mis-understanding of the sensation/perception issue of musical experience, there are two criticisms of her view of music I also find a need to address. The first is that she premised the \essence of music as being mathematical. The easiest way to respond to such a criticism is to remember that she defined mathematics as the science of measurement – and also to remember that a sheet of music, any music, is a sheet full of measurement. Yes, there are other aspects of music that give texture to the music, put the measurements into contexts – but the bottom line is that music is an exoppression of auditory stimulus according to mathematical means. It is on that basis, the fundamental level, that she expressed the way music is involved in one's sense of life and was concerned with.



The other cirticism leveled at her music t heory is the one she really didn't give a satisfactory answer to – what is the re-presentational aspect of music that co-responds to reality? I suspect part of the problem in giving a good answer to this was her sensation/perception mis-understanding aspect of how the mind hears music. But, if one were to re-translate her sensation mistaken observations and put them into perceptual concretes, it seems a much more integrated and noncontradictory view emerges.



While I am primarily an artist, tho I also sculpt, I also am an avid listener od serious music. One thing I've observed is that for the most part of human hustory, music was in accompanyment with song and dance. It wasn't until about 300 years or so ago that secular music really made its mark, and music started being played for its own sake. But, for the time music was connected with voice especially, and dence, there was never a question about its expressive meanings. This is to say there was no problem as to what aspect of reality music's meaning referred to, music's emotional respondings. The question would only arise when music per se was in volved. Yet, as far as I am concerned, it seems a false problem, as the same set of pitch, beat, tone, etc. That music makes use of when accompanying vocals should elicit the same response emotionally when not accompanying vocals, when the music stands on its own. This is clearly noted in such instances as laments, or songs of joy, or the emotions of solemnity, or the gaiety of dance. Music, as such, is a very abstract Art, and in expressing what it is and does in a form similar to the definition of Art, I would have to say that music selects and styles certain important or meaningful aural experiences, making use of certain configurations which best express those qualities, drawing out the relative emotional responses – abstracting, as it were, to better the perception.



Even when one deals with music beyond a single instrument or small group of instruments, as, say, the expressiveness of an orchestra, where far greater variety of tones and emotional derivations can be achieved, note that there is still a co-respondent to singing – the violins, which are analogous to the vocal, whether singly as in a violin concerto, or grouping as if a choral, as they are arranged in the orchestra itself. In any case, it is clear there is intelligibility, a definite "re-presentation of..." in music, and a definite reference to "some aspect of reality."



Now, there is more on this which I could continue saying something about, filling in some of the details of this music section to smooth out what seem rough patches – but I am not really interested. I only wanted to say enough to indicate – primarily for others – that Rand's aesthetic views do indeed apply to the other arenas of Art as they do to literature – and, I hope I've shown, to rendering. I could, for instance, go on with the moral implications that are to be found in music, which have been disputed by others who claim that moral examples cannot be displayed other than thru literature, but I hope that by showing at least clues to the supposed dilemna in speaking of rendering, so , too, someone will detail it for music [if not, and nobody else comes forth to do so, then I reluctantly will have to "teach the children" – I just hope not.... there are, after all, other adults around].



Post 21

Sunday, April 1, 2007 - 3:09pmSanction this postReply
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In her writing on music, she specifically said music does not recreate reality. So she means it in a different sense.

Post 22

Sunday, April 1, 2007 - 3:38pmSanction this postReply
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I am not an artist or a muscian - this is really out of my area of expertise - you have been warned.

I've always thought that music recreated the reality of an inner-world.  It paints the pictures that Robert mentions in his article of joy, gaiety, solemnity or sorrow, but there are also what seem to me like more subtle inner-states: Triumph, confusion, birth of an idea or purpose, the rising creshendo's always seem to tell of a progression of a theme, the added complexity of a new 'voice' joining a chorus is like the integration of something important - like a new idea or the committment to a direction.  The changes through the piece offer a direction - conflicts can arise and be resolved.  It is our inner-states as essences being played but without the content or stimuli that they ordinarily be a response to.

In a novel, the particulars let our sense of life reverberate as it will - depending upon the novel and our sense of life.  With music, it seems to go straight to the emotions and leaves the audience free to create their own particulars (or to not create anything).

Yet there is a filter of some sort.  The same music won't do for me what it does for others and visa versa.  I believe that there are several factors at work in this psychology of music.  One is a kind of imprinting.  Many of us have a fondness for music that was popular when we were leaving childhood and going into our teen years.  Others are unaffected by popular music and seek specific styles and composers from the classical genre.  Sometimes I see what I think is a kind of Jungian Shadow effect - we find a call from music that is in our consciousness's shadow - a representation of what we aren't.  A timid, humble man liking very brassy hard rock.  An outwardly happy cheerful lady that is moved to tears by sad songs. 

But all of my little explanations don't seem to get at the heart of what is happening.  I'd be interested in what others think is going on.


Post 23

Sunday, April 1, 2007 - 4:12pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney: "In her writing on music, she specifically said music does not recreate reality. So she means it in a different sense."

I don't think that's quite accurate, unless you know the exact quote? At any rate, the debate is certainly understandable. Here are some from RM that kinda sound what you might be referring to, but I'd interpret them differently:

"The fundamental difference between music and the other arts lies in the fact that music is experienced as if it reversed man's normal psycho-epistemological process." (50)

"The other arts create a physical object (i.e., an object perceived by man's senses, be it a book or a painting*)" (50)

"Music cannot tell a story, it cannot deal with concretes, it cannot convey a specific existential phenomenon, such as a peaceful countryside or a stormy sea....All that music can do with such themes is convey the emotions of serenity, or defiance, or exaltation." (52)

"Music communicates emotionss, which one grasps, but does not actually feel..." (52)

This quote might back you up a bit more, though she was referring here to the performing arts (though musicians are performance artists, but composing is not performing per se):

"In these arts, the medium employed is the person of the artist. His task is not to re-create reality, but to implement the re-creation made by one of the primary arts." (64)

I submit that Rand does note a difference, but does not say that music doesn't recreate reality; rather, it recreates an abstraction (emotions) through the depiction of motion, which is the only way one could do so with the sense available (hearing.) In addition to the Bissell argument, I just want to note Ron Merrill's argument in response to the difficulty of including music in Rand's definition, where he amends it as "A man-made object or process the funtion of which is to induce a sense of life in the observer."

*(I found it odd that Rand considered the book as the object in literature, maybe because she was simply speaking loosely...but it's not the physical book but the abstractions in the book that are properly considered art.)


Post 24

Sunday, April 1, 2007 - 4:19pmSanction this postReply
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unless you know the exact quote?
All my books are in storage, but there is a quote in the same essay you are citing, right at the beginning of the music section where she says something like: "[music] does not recreate reality, but ..." Unless my memory is wrong on the exact location of the passage! But I am sure it exists.

So it is clear that even if Bissell's argument is sound (and it sounds rather tortuous to me!) Rand did not think music "recreates" in the sense she was using the idea in her definition.


Post 25

Sunday, April 1, 2007 - 4:30pmSanction this postReply
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The majority of the quotes I pulled were from the beginning of the music section of "Art and Cognition." Those were the closest things to your point. (Just making it clear that I'm not trying to misrepresent you or Rand, but I don't see an exact line in the first couple parts of the section...

Post 26

Sunday, April 1, 2007 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
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We've gone from a comet to music, so here. (I swear I didn't plan this!)

Post 27

Sunday, April 1, 2007 - 5:11pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney, may THESE be the quotes? Towards the beginning of the essay itself, Rand does list how the various art forms recreate reality:

"Literature re-creates reality by means of language-Painting, by means of color on a two--dimensional surface-Sculpture, by means of a three-dimensional form made of a solid material. Music employs the sounds produced by the periodic vibrations of a sonorous body, and evokes man's sense of life emotions. Architecture is in a class by itself, becasue it combines art with a utilitarian purpose and does not re-create reality, but creates a structure for man's habitation or use, expressing man's values." (46)


Here she says that ARCHITECTURE does not recreate reality, but includes music. However, she does say a few paragraphs later that "Music does not deal with entities, which is the reason why its psycho-epistemological function is different from that of the other arts."



Post 28

Sunday, April 1, 2007 - 5:12pmSanction this postReply
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Re the hijack: It IS a very cool photo. :)

Post 29

Sunday, April 1, 2007 - 5:30pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, the architecture quote is what I was thinking of, so my memory was wrong. She apparently does include music in her definition. So substitute architecture in what I said (my apologies):

"Be it known that I don't fully subscribe to AR's definition of art either. For example, [deletion], she left out [architecture]. I think she chose the definition she did because it seemed to cover most art, and especially literature, which was her own field ... [deletion]."

Thanks, Joe, for clearing that up! That idea was in my head for a long time.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 4/01, 6:18pm)


Post 30

Sunday, April 1, 2007 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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(I don't mind so-called "hijacks" when they're bona fide tangents. When someone makes a strong but dubious statement, an argument will inevitably arise.)


Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Post 31

Monday, April 2, 2007 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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     In any photo, of course there is 'selectivity' involved, which indeed may itself be 'art'istic. But, when one thinks of a painting (ok: representational) or music composition, keep in mind that we're talking about elements put together in such a way (like multi-colored Leggo blocks, if you will) that the elements themselves become not only un-noticeable, but irrelevent per se to the gestalt product 'emerged' from their composition. The 'elements' in photos don't do this, however artistically they may be arranged. The elements ARE the focus, unlike the daubs of paint or music notes. There is no 're-creation' in photos, though there may be beauty in the selected subject(s).

LLAP
J:D


Post 32

Monday, April 2, 2007 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
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Addendum:

     O-t-other-h, once we start talking Photoshop, etc, it's a whole different ball game.

     Anyone seen Leggos used to 're-create' a subject? Good or bad, that is ntl 'art.'

Robert:

     Good distinction in your post #9 re 'aesthetics' and 'art'! Thought provoking; where'd you get that idea?

LLAP
J:D

PS: Absolutely great photo, though; talk about 'right time; right place'!


Post 33

Monday, April 2, 2007 - 4:10pmSanction this postReply
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It was a consequence of noting that there is a distinction between the utilitarian and the contemplative - and that there is beauty [or can be] in the utilitarian, thus there has to be an element in common...

Post 34

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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    (Sigh-h-h...) Why are such obviously simple things so hard to see distinctions about...for some of us?

LLAP
J:D


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