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Post 0

Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 8:18pmSanction this postReply
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Oh gosh, you're right. I should have known those Muslims I know were lieing to me! Tricky tricky.

Or maybe not.

Maybe what you should say is that YOU are at war with Islam, but don't speak for me. I stand by what I said, it is a foolish thing to say.

I stand by what I said about Yaron Brook as well.

Even if he and you are right and the war is with Islam, you sure as hel don't know how to win it. You do what your enemy wants. Yaron Brook loses his war every time he opens his mouth. Philosphers think ecause they understand an idea and that it is right that they know how to win a war be it of ideas or whatever. Yaron proves he doesn't know it. He is arrogant becasue he doesn't know when he has stepped past his area of expertise.

Winning a batte is one thing. Winning a war another. keeping a peace after a war, still another.

But you just keep on beating the hate drum. Your so called enemy loves the tune! See where it gets you.


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Post 1

Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 9:39pmSanction this postReply
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Are you calling Sultan a liar, Ethan? Or at best, ignorant of the subject matter? 

According to Steve Emerson, ......"Unfortunately 80% of the mosques in the United States are controlled by the Wahhabists. That's the reality. No one wants to admit it. They're the ones that attract terrorists."

 

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 8/21, 9:49pm)


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Post 2

Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 9:55pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

You criticize others but offer no suggestions. You say they are wrong, but offer no evidence beyond saying that the Muslims you know tell you otherwise.

You say that others hate Muslims and that seems to upset you and be the focus of your objections. I don't see hate as much as I do anger or straight forward passion. In Wafa Sultan's case, and in the examples she mentioned, should anyone not have strong feelings? I see Dr. Sultan as one of today's few moral heroes - the last thing that would ever enter my mind after watching that video would be to write a post like yours.

Let me ask you... could it be that Islam is like communism in that there can be millions of people living under communism and thinking that it is a good system, thinking their particular leaders are the problem, or thinking that their country's particular implementation is the problem? Wouldn't it be right to strongly, passionately oppose a truly evil system even if billions of people are good, normal people who have partially adopted it and wrongly believe in it? Isn't a system truly evil if it is totally backwards relative to human nature - that is, the more consistently one follows it the farther one gets from human flourishing?

Those little school girls that were burned to death weren't an accident. They represent the heart of Islam when it is practiced consistently. The many, many good Muslims are the people who do NOT practice Islam consistently and who do NOT understand it's essence. They have chosen to cherry-pick the good sentiments scattered about in Koran and to ignore the rest, and to use a kind of commonsense approach to life. But the Koran is full of calls for violence against non-believers, brutality against women, no equality for women or non-believers, acceptance of slavery, the execution of anyone who abandons the religion, barbaric punishments, calls to impose these beliefs on others, declarations that there can be but one religion, and contempt for reason. Those who hope to reform Islam will find that they have to twist their interpretations of the scriptures into such pretzel-like shapes as to have no success at all.
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22.9: "As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skins shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron-rods"

47.4: "When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."
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...the experiences of the prophet's life, the constant bloodshed which marked his career at Medina, seem to have impressed his followers with a profound belief in the value of bloodshed at opening the gates of paradise." That's from Margoliouth, an Islamic scholar and apologist, who wrote that as part an attempt to white-wash Khomeini's call for the murder of Salman Rushdie.

Mohammed initiated violence - he practiced the bloodshed he advocated. And he claimed that he was spoken to by God. And he wrote what he heard and now there is no way to change it. That is the problem with faith.

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Post 3

Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 4:45amSanction this postReply
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I'm not here to defend Islam. I'm an atheist and don't agree with it's belief system. However

"Those who hope to reform Islam will find that they have to twist their interpretations of the scriptures into such pretzel-like shapes as to have no success at all"

Read the Bible?

As for not offering solutions...I don't think you'll take any I offer.

As for not ffering any evidence beyond the comments of Muslims' that I know, let me ask you a question. If you are at war with Islam, how do you define victory? What must you achieve to be able to say, this war is won?


Post 4

Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 7:30amSanction this postReply
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I realize that my posts and attitude on this topic can seem quite harsh. I want to say that it's not a lack of respect that makes me speak this way. In fact it's quite the opposite.

We should all have our ideas and conclusions challenged. I reconsider my position each day, but have yet to see where this idea of a war against Islam is correct. I think it's critical that people think about this.

That is why I pose the above question; Assuming there is a war against Islam, what is the victory condition for that war. How long do you think it will take. Realize this also; In war you will be sending troops to fight. Some of them will die. More will die if you have not thought out your plans well. That said, let's start with the basics, that is to define victory, then you will decide how best to acheive it. I'm ready to hear your ideas.

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 8/22, 7:30am)


Post 5

Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 8:55amSanction this postReply
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If you are at war with Islam, how do you define victory? What must you achieve to be able to say, this war is won?
I recommend reading John David Lewis's "No Substitute for Victory: The Defeat of Islamic Totalitarianism."


Post 6

Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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Yeah,

I suggest you read that agin yourself. I'll wait and explain a bit later if you don't see it.


Post 7

Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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So, have you read it again?

The war he suggest is with Totalitarian Islam. That is, the Islamic State. This is different from what Yaron Brook states, who say Islam itself is the target. I say these are one in the same. But let's take your writer's point up here Bob. Victory is the destruction of Islamic regimes.

So, do you suggest we go to war agaisnt all Islamic states and when they are destroyed it will be victory?

Do you think Islam itself will be destroyed?

How do you propose to win? What means will you use?


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Post 8

Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

I know that you're an atheist and the would-be reformers I spoke of are are moderate Muslims whose attempt have failed decade after decade. My point is that they will not succeed.
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You said, "Read the Bible?"

Yes, and I see the similarities. I'm an atheist and know that Christians have the same problems with being held intellectual hostage by their faith in unchangeable, contradictory, irrational scriptures. But this argument is neither for nor against Christianity. And your comment doesn't answer any of my arguments or questions.
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You said, "As for not offering solutions... I don't think you'll take any I offer."

Perhaps that's true, but you are posting to more than just me. And you never know who is informed by your thoughts or what effect they have until they have been expressed. It is reasonable for me to ask for your ideas, evidence, and reasoning.... after all I assume you have more in your mind than the blunt conclusions you've posted.
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You asked, " If you are at war with Islam, how do you define victory? What must you achieve to be able to say, this war is won?"

First, a person must understand what is meant by 'war with Islam.' A declaration of war is a legisative act and it must, therefore, be constitutional and must be objective law. Certainly the government should never declare war on a religion or set of ideas. So, we are NOT talking about that kind of war. Second, a cultural or ideological 'war' in this area already exists - doesn't it? And it is not between the United States of America (or its government) and Islam. It is between the different ideologies as put forth by their proponents. Look at the argument I made about millions of good people living in communist countries that may disagree with their leaders, want a peaceful existence, yet think that communism is good - just not being done correctly. We (the supporters of Capitalism) are in an ideological 'war' with those people completely separate from whether the government has declared, or should declare, a war against a particular communist country.

A declaration of war, to be constitutional and objective law, must name one or more nations or specific organization(s), like Al Queada. That is a different meaning of the word 'war' than 'war with Islam.'
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I agree with your point that any 'war' - no matter which meaning of the word 'war' is used - should have an effort made to define what constitutes victory (as well as justification for entering the 'war').
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There are 3 levels at which the concept of war applies to this thread. A military war against a nation that is an Islamic Theocracy, a war of some sort against Islamic fundamentalists that engage in terrorism or crime, a war of ideas with those who believe in Islam as opposed to any of the other systems of belief that do not justify the subjugation of women, relegation of non-believers and women to second-class citizenship, mixing of state and religion, etc. I believe it is that second one that is causing the intellectual confusion we see among Objectivists. Because the individuals or organizations are not always linked with a government it becomes harder to define when it is appropriate to use any government force.

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Post 9

Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 12:52pmSanction this postReply
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Okay, so finish your thought and tell me how you are going to achieve victory, or victories.

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Post 10

Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

There are 3 kinds of war: War declared by congress against a nation, war declared by congress against an organization, and an ideological war.

How do we serve our self-interest as a nation and as individuals and not violate the principles of Objectivism in pursuit of these 3 wars?

Here is my current thinking:

-- Government Acts --

-Declared War against Iran-
The president should request a declaration of war against Iran rather than allow them to have a nuclear weapon. The self-interest of the United States is clear in that based upon what they would do with the weapon. We are morally justified because of the past actions of Iran, and their stated positions, and the fact that they are a dictatorship. Victory would be a regime change that met a specific set of requirements (no theocracy, individual rights, no WMDs, etc). I believe the people would revolt as soon as they were certain that the war was real and before it had gone very far.

-Declared war against Terrorist Organizations-
The president should request a declaration of war against the key organizations on the list of known terrorist organizations - those that have attacked us in the past and are threats to do so in the near future... Like Al Queaeda

-Take away funding and support of Terrorists-
Military/Police actions should be taken that restore stolen property and defund terrorists.

Those nations that have nationalized oil company properties where there was a significant American ownership should be pursued in international court with the stated understanding that if the court doesn't return the stolen property, the American military will.

Somali pirates/war-lords should be hit hard in their strong holds. No nation building, just wipe out the ability to go after shipping. No more extorted money for terrorism from piracy.

The Taliban should be hit with small raids on a periodic basis till they stop supporting Al Qaeda. Drop herbicides on the opium crops to stop that as a source of funding for terrorism. (legalizing drugs in our country is a good move on its own)

The Saudi government, in addition to losing their nationalized oil properties would be informed that any further support of terrorists by members of the Saudi royal family or the government would be treated as an act of war. And that includes funding of any mosques or schools that encouraged violent jihad.
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Ideological War

This war is waged by individuals. Not government. It is voluntary and each person simply does that they think best. Coalitions form around different leaders and blocks of ideas become identified with different groups. People change there positions, new generations come along and join in, and the general process of intellectual and cultural evolution determines the winners and losers over time.

I hope that the side I want to win adapts the following practices and concepts:
  • Point out the different kinds of war... like I have here.
  • Point out the barbaric nature of much of the Islamic religion.
  • Point out the difference between a religion that its adherents accept voluntarily and a religion that incorporates politics and forces itself on others.
  • Attack the arguments of those who attempt to cloak all things religious as protected from critical examination or intellectual attacks - death to PC!
  • Create a simple bullet-point list of things a reformed Islam would need to explicitly embrace and demand that moderate Muslims adopt them and make bring them into being if they wish to be regarded as civilized.


Post 11

Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Steve,

Summing up your positions below and adding my addiontal questions. I'd like some more information, escpecially if I have to pay for this with money, security, and maybe my life. Give me some ideas about what sort of military, political, and legal options you are considering. Also keep in mind realistic contraints of force, cash, and will. I've left off the idealogical war part as I don't think it will be necessary with all these others. I assume your ultimate goal is a stronger safer U.S..

WAR1 : against Iran rather than allow them to have a nuclear weapon.
VICTORY: Victory would be a regime change that met a specific set of requirements.

How do youi accomlish this?

WAR2: Al Queaeda, etc.
VICTORY: Organization destroyed?

How do you accomplish this? We've been at it for 9 years or so.



WAR3,4,5 (more?) : Those nations that have nationalized oil company properties where there was a significant American ownership should be pursued in international court with the stated understanding that if the court doesn't return the stolen property, the American military will.
VISTORY: Returned oil properties

How do you accomplish this? What do you do when they blow it up?

War 6:  Somali pirates/war-lords should be hit hard in their strong holds. No nation building, just wipe out the ability to go after shipping. No more extorted money for terrorism from piracy.
VICTORY: Death of existing warlords?

How do you accomplish this?

War 7: The Taliban should be hit with small raids on a periodic basis till they stop supporting Al Qaeda. Drop herbicides on the opium crops to stop that as a source of funding for terrorism. (legalizing drugs in our country is a good move on its own)
VISTORY: Not supporting Al Qaeda.

Ongoing for 9 years. How will you accomlish this?

War 8: The Saudi government, in addition to losing their nationalized oil properties would be informed that any further support of terrorists by members of the Saudi royal family or the government would be treated as an act of war. And that includes funding of any mosques or schools that encouraged violent jihad.

How do you accomlish this?


 


Post 12

Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 6:48pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

I'm not sure how to answer your questions. Getting congress to declare war is a political act. How does a president get congress to do anything? I imagine that the declaration of war would be followed, within minutes to hours with air strikes on many of Iran's offensive military assets - to reduce their ability to do harm and to let them know that it is not just talk. There would be communications, public and behind the scenes with those in a position to unseat the current regime and with the people of Iran - letting them know that there would be no backing off until the stated goals were achieved. I don't know what else to answer.

Let me ask... Do you have another way to keep the current regime from becoming armed with nuclear weapons? Is allowing this regime to get this nuclear weapons something you would be willing to go to war for?

Let me ask... Do you agree that this current Radical Islamic regime in Iran is a significant danger to our country?
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On the nationalized oil properties, as I stated, the first approach would be an attempt to make International Law work. The idea would be to have the Attorney General file a case before the appropriate court. If it doesn't work, then it becomes a military project. You asked what is done when they blow it up. It isn't possible to blow up an oil reservoir - the only thing that can be blown up is the well head, pumps, etc. Those are replacable. The principle here is the same as if a thief who says, "If you try to get back the car I stole, I'll throw a brick through the windshield." Do you let the thief keep the car? I don't think so. Getting back the oil reservoirs AND stopping the flow of funds to terrorists are the goals.

Let me ask... Do you believe that oil reservoirs held by governments that nationalized them should be allowed to keep them?
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The Victory in the war against the Somai pirates/warlords is not the death of the warlords. It is the end of piracy (which also stops that flow of money to terrorists).

We accomplish this in the same way we accomplished it when Jefferson sent our tiny little navy to the Barbary Coast - you attack with military forces. I don't know what else to say about that or what kind of information you want.

Let me ask... Do want to let the pirates continue as they please? If not, what do you suggest?
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On the Taliban, I would not engage in troops on the ground apart from quick in-and-out raids and air attacks. I would not engage in any nation building or attempt to win the hearts and minds of the people. I would use herbacides on opium crops. These approaches have only been partially followed during the last 9 years. And, for the most part, it has only been practiced in Afghanistan and not when the Taliban were across the border in Pakistan.

I have little hope of nice, clean victory, or a short end of the problems. I see it as an ongoing process that keeps Al Queda from gaining strength. I hope that there are better answers out there, but I haven't heard one yet.

Let me ask.... Would you cease all military activity against Al Queda and the Taliban? Do you have other approaches that you think would work better?
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If the efforts to stop the Saudi's from funding Islamist Terrorism were started a while after the declaration of war against Iran, I suspect that all requests would be treated with great seriousness and be very effective. For decades I've seen an extremely peculiar psychological response from nearly all of the Islamic middle east political factions - they nearly always go to vocal extremes in statements of intended violence they are going to engage in and act as if there was absolutely no danger that they will be attacked or taken seriously. But on the few cases where they are dealt with strongly, they usually immediately change their positions. It is a cultural difference that the West still doesn't fully appreciate. Carrying a big stick, and using it when appropriate is very, very important when dealing with the middle-east.
-----------------

Ethan, it is your turn to explain what you would do, and why.

Post 13

Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Steve,

Thanks for your reply.

I'm off to bed but will reply in detail tomorrow.

Regards,

Ethan


Post 14

Monday, August 23, 2010 - 6:28amSanction this postReply
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Let me ask... Do you have another way to keep the current regime from becoming armed with nuclear weapons? Is allowing this regime to get this nuclear weapons something you would be willing to go to war for?
Perhaps. I beleive the answer lies in the recent unrest following the "election." The people there seem ready for a change. There are way to foster that sentiment and support it.

War? I would say military action.


 
Let me ask... Do you agree that this current Radical Islamic regime in Iran is a significant danger to our country?
They are a danger. All out war or recurring militray action could make this worse. It would also possibly build up negative sentiments within the populace. Given their negative disposition towards their own governemnt I would not wantto do that. I'd rather they think of us as a spiritual ally.


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On the nationalized oil properties, as I stated, the first approach would be an attempt to make International Law work. The idea would be to have the Attorney General file a case before the appropriate court. If it doesn't work, then it becomes a military project.
The oil is not worth the cost now. If we were going to stop it, then we should have done it when the nationalization happened. Was it wrong? Yes. But to try to get it back will cost us more than it's worth.

You asked what is done when they blow it up. It isn't possible to blow up an oil reservoir - the only thing that can be blown up is the well head, pumps, etc. Those are replacable.
You will not be able top maintain the cost in replacement parts, time, and man-power. Oil costs will go up rather than down.

The principle here is the same as if a thief who says, "If you try to get back the car I stole, I'll throw a brick through the windshield." Do you let the thief keep the car? I don't think so. Getting back the oil reservoirs AND stopping the flow of funds to terrorists are the goals.
The principle is not the issue. Oil reserves are not a car either, you can't move them someplace safe and easy to defend.


Let me ask... Do you believe that oil reservoirs held by governments that nationalized them should be allowed to keep them?
We have allowed this.  
---------------------


The Victory in the war against the Somai pirates/warlords is not the death of the warlords. It is the end of piracy (which also stops that flow of money to terrorists).

We accomplish this in the same way we accomplished it when Jefferson sent our tiny little navy to the Barbary Coast - you attack with military forces. I don't know what else to say about that or what kind of information you want.
This seems a reasonable plan. It could be done in a combined way that would eventually put them out of business!

Let me ask... Do want to let the pirates continue as they please? If not, what do you suggest?

Nope. They should be put to the sword.
-------------------------


On the Taliban, I would not engage in troops on the ground apart from quick in-and-out raids and air attacks. I would not engage in any nation building or attempt to win the hearts and minds of the people. I would use herbacides on opium crops. These approaches have only been partially followed during the last 9 years. And, for the most part, it has only been practiced in Afghanistan and not when the Taliban were across the border in Pakistan.

I have little hope of nice, clean victory, or a short end of the problems. I see it as an ongoing process that keeps Al Queda from gaining strength. I hope that there are better answers out there, but I haven't heard one yet.
The war against Al Qaeda is one of preventing funding, but mostly drying up their access to people.

 
Let me ask.... Would you cease all military activity against Al Queda and the Taliban? Do you have other approaches that you think would work better?
No. The best way to destroy the drug trade (including the craziness in Mexico) is to legalize drugs. The war on drugs is both a failure and foolishness incarnate. It simply is a resource drain that accomplishes nothing. People own their lives and that's that. As for a better way, yes. Militray actionis limited in what it can affect. Our diplomatic efforts have been idiotic. We need to rethink that approach entirely. That's a big topic, but it is key.

---------------------


If the efforts to stop the Saudi's from funding Islamist Terrorism were started a while after the declaration of war against Iran, I suspect that all requests would be treated with great seriousness and be very effective. For decades I've seen an extremely peculiar psychological response from nearly all of the Islamic middle east political factions - they nearly always go to vocal extremes in statements of intended violence they are going to engage in and act as if there was absolutely no danger that they will be attacked or taken seriously. But on the few cases where they are dealt with strongly, they usually immediately change their positions. It is a cultural difference that the West still doesn't fully appreciate. Carrying a big stick, and using it when appropriate is very, very important when dealing with the middle-east.
-----------------

We have been a paper tiger for certain. We should only threaten to use force if we are going to use force.


Ethan, it is your turn to explain what you would do, and why.
I think we should take this in stages.

Stage1 involves making clear statements that we will be changing our policies.

      a)  Al Qaeda and other radical groups claim we are at war with Islam. We will re-state that we are NOT at war with Islam.

      b) These groups further claim that we are occupying Muslim lands. To that end we will announce or plans to withdraw from these lands.

Sound like capitualtion so far?

      c) These groups also claim we support evil governments, such as the Saudi governement, Israel, etc. To that end we will announce a plan to withdraw ALL economic and military support. That includes Israel too.

Total folding?
     
We'll let that simmer for a while to see what crops up in response. That said, these plans should be real and in place before our announcments.

More later


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Post 15

Monday, August 23, 2010 - 7:35amSanction this postReply
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Ethan

They are a danger. All out war or recurring militray action could make this worse. It would also possibly build up negative sentiments within the populace. Given their negative disposition towards their own governemnt I would not wantto do that. I'd rather they think of us as a spiritual ally.


Do you think they would be willing to remain a spiritual ally if they see we wouldn't be willing to lift a finger to help them topple their regime, and worse still, have our President not even offer a voice of support for those political protesters in Iran? At some point you drain that capital of good will and it turns into a view of cowardice.

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Post 16

Monday, August 23, 2010 - 7:39amSanction this postReply
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Hi John,

Do you think they would be willing to remain a spiritual ally if they see we wouldn't be willing to lift a finger to help them topple their regime, and worse still, have our President not even offer a voice of support for those political protesters in Iran? At some point you drain that capital of good will and it turns into a view of cowardice.
I agree. That assisatance or support would be part of one of my stage 2 plan :-) The lack of even vocal support for the protestors by our president and governemnt in general was sickening. Such a wasted opportunity. It's one of the more egregious U.S. blunders of the last few years.



Post 17

Monday, August 23, 2010 - 1:04pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

Referring to the people of Iran, you said, "The people there seem ready for a change. There are way to foster that sentiment and support it. War? I would say military action. "

I agree, except for a few things: 1) There should be tight controls on the amount of military action that can be taken without a declaration of war. The Founders didn't intend for the executive branch to be able to do much without the house of representatives (the people reps) okay. 2) If we start with a declaration of war, we make a stronger statement of our will, and create more trust in those who we want to rise up and overthrow the regime. 3) With a declaration, the president can slowly, but steadily escalate as needed. And his statements from that point on will carry enormous weight. 4) With a powerful military strike at Iran's offensive military assets, it is a defacto war, and therefore more honest to declare it.
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You said, "The oil is not worth the cost now. If we were going to stop it, then we should have done it when the nationalization happened. Was it wrong? Yes. But to try to get it back will cost us more than it's worth."

I disagree for the following reasons: 1) It isn't about the economic benefit which would not go to the government anyway. 2) It is about the principle which serves as precendent and a warning for the future, and 3) it is about justice returning property to the rightful owners and 4) it is about taking away the major source of funding for terrorism.
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On the bit about them blowing up the well-head, you said, "You will not be able top maintain the cost in replacement parts, time, and man-power. Oil costs will go up rather than down."

I'm not sure what you mean. Once the courts or military turned the property back over to the companies, there may or may not be damage that the oil companies would bear. At worst, the military would spend time defending the property on behalf of the rightful property owners. That is part of the cost of justice and detering future nationalizations and a proper use of government. As to the resulting market costs of oil... I don't think we could accurately estimate what this would do to medium or long term oil prices. Remember that it changes the equation that currently factors in cartel politics and having this critical resource in the hands of anti-civilization religious nutcases.

In addition, letting it be known that any violent attempts to retake the oil fields after our military captures them would be interpreted as an act of war would be an effective deterrence.
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Still on getting back nationalized oil fields, you said, "The principle is not the issue." And you talked about the military difficulty of guarding the oil fields.

We disagree on strongly on it not being a matter of principle! Manhattan Island is not a car, we can't move it somewhere safe and easy to defend, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't defend it, or that if some part of it were taken over we shouldn't take it back. Or the Hawaiian Islands would be hard to retake if captured... and the captors might threaten to kill hostages if we tried to recapture them. You appear to be offering up military tactical concerns where moral and ethical concerns should be the first and predominate concern.
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I asked if you believe that countries holding oil reservoirs because they nationalized them should be allowed to keep them. You said, "We have allowed this."

That isn't an answer to the question. It was wrong to have allowed it. And it is wrong to continue to allow it. Slavery was allowed to continue for a long time, but that would not have been a valid reason to allow it to continue.
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Regarding the Somali pirates, you said, "They should be put to the sword."

Well said! As someone who likes to do long-distance sailing to foreign ports, that is like music to my ears!
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You said, "The war on drugs is both a failure and foolishness incarnate.

We agree completely on that. I would still use the herbicides on the opium fields until we had legalization.
-----------------------

I'll await your second stage before making comments on the first stage.


Post 18

Monday, August 23, 2010 - 1:53pmSanction this postReply
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The root of this war is ideological. It will never be won with weapons - only with ideas. But there are no ideas that will be able to convince the most rabid Islamofascists to change their ways.

Winning the minds of moderates will be a big help but never get the job done. Success in that area would result in a reformation of Islam such that the radicals were isolated from the moderates with a clear distinction between them. The Nazi's purposely defined themselves as separate from the rest of the political environment of the day as part of their strategy to acquire and use power. The fundamentalists have acquired and use power from their association with moderate Islam which has a mantle of legitimacy and vast numbers. Redefine Islam by forever repudiating jihad, subjugation of women, treating others a second class citizens, and the desire for a caliphate and then the radicals could be denounced as "jihadists" making that into a bad word, as "false Muslims" - they would be isolated and out in the cold with tiny numbers. Then the moderates could join the side of civilization in the war against the fanatics.

Imagine this, years from now, a terrorist car bombing attack on an American Embassy is reported and in the streets of Cairo, a young Egyptian boy laughs and shouts with joy. But next to him several Egyptians turn to him and shout at him with anger, "What's the matter with you? That was the act of mad dogs - dirty jihadists - they bring shame on the prophet and the good people of Islam! They are false Muslims and they will forever be denied entrance to paradise." Imagine that becoming the message given by 999 out of 1,000 Imams. That would be the power of the vast numbers of Muslims turned the right direction.

Here is an example of what fighting this war should look like: Moderate Muslims, including Imams, should be sought out that agree with that direction. Movies should be made that show this unfolding as a realistic fiction story where barbaric fundamentalism is thrown off as a disease and replaced with a new, enlightened spirituality - a purified worship of Islam. It should be created by Muslims for Muslims but with all of the power modern Hollywood and the style of romantic art can provide and then made available on YouTube or the likes.

Most important are the newer generations as they 'come online' - that is where the ideological war will be won. Winning the minds is done by arguments, expectations and actions and not the acts of village kindness that are being attempted in the Afganistan countryside today. A reformation of Islam would take many generations for the effects to bear fruit, even if the all of the respected Islamic councils were able to make the best of declarations in a single year.

The ideological war will take place over many decades. Because it will be so long and because we cannot make those rabid radicals change their ways, we need to take away their power to harm us till the world evolves beyond fundamentalist Islam. We need to cut off the funding to those who proselytize for and participate in terrorist activities. Nationalized oil, piracy and opium sales generate billions each year that get funneled to the projects of brainwashing the young, seeking out and training the fighters, supplying the logistical support of terrorist activities. Another major source is Theocracy itself - the power to tax. Take away the funding and we are talking about goat herders talking to each other and unable to afford a plane ticket much less a multibillion dollar terrorism department.

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