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Post 40

Saturday, October 5, 2013 - 5:21pmSanction this postReply
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Ed said,"There is such wisdom, but I call it emotional intelligence and I do not grant to Buddhism any special pipeline ..."

Firstly, I can't imagine that there is anything less emotional that Zen. Just sitting in the moment, letting your thoughts dissipate, is the very antithesis of emotion. For that reason I don't think that you ever really understood the process of meditation. Granted, there is great elation after breaking through to satori but the process is as unemotional as can be.

Secondly, I maintain that only Zen among the various techniques of meditation is consistent with the Objectivist tenets of atheism and shunning altruism.

I wish to correct an opinion I expressed before about Zen being opposed to all forms of killing, including self defense. I was told by my sensei that anyone killing another person would be expelled from the sangha (i.e.community.) Thinking this over more carefully, I think it was that such a person would contaminate the vibes therein, not that he was being punished for defending himself. There's a big difference.

Sam



Post 41

Sunday, October 6, 2013 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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Sam,
Firstly, I can't imagine that there is anything less emotional that Zen.
Well, I don't consider that to be a good thing. It presupposes a dichotomy between our emotions (our experience of living) and our reason (our tool for living).

Just sitting in the moment, letting your thoughts dissipate, is the very antithesis of emotion. For that reason I don't think that you ever really understood the process of meditation.
But, according to Zen, an intellectual understanding of the process of meditation is not important -- only the practice of it is important. If you sit tall and concentrate on belly-breathing (and if you make a habit out of it), then you are living the way of Zen. The practice of Zen in your life is as simple as that (from the 3rd party perspective of it).

Secondly, I maintain that only Zen among the various techniques of meditation is consistent with the Objectivist tenets of atheism and shunning altruism.
Maybe so, but philosophical concepts* smuggled into Zen by D.T. Suzuki are inconsistent with tenets that are of at least as great importance in Objectivism. It is inconsistent with the foundational (logical; genetic) base of Objectivism. Alternatively, it is most consistent -- perhaps entirely consistent -- with Existentialism.

Ed

*D.T. Suzuki. An Introduction to Zen Buddhism, 1934
Zen wants to live from within. Not to be bound by rules, but to be creating one's own rules--this is the kind of life which Zen is trying to have us live. Hence its illogical, or rather superlogical, statements.
Recap:
Screw all notions of Identity and Causality. The world is yours for the taking. It is an Existentialist free-for-all out there, so simply exercise your will-to-power to forge your own course through the inherently-unchartable waters. Logic closes rather than opens up possibilities. Therefore, get beyond the stranglehold of logic and beyond the limited nature of man -- stop acting in accordance with your nature as a thinking, rational being on planet earth. That doesn't lead to any possibilities. Nature, to be commanded, does not first have to be obeyed.


Post 42

Sunday, October 6, 2013 - 12:59pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

I think that your interpretation of Suzuki is erroneous. Some quotes on causality:

"We can only be “profoundly convinced of cause and effect” if we profoundly study it, learn it, practice it, and verify it in experiential realization. One of the things causality asserts is that we ourselves are the motivating influence of the course and direction of our life experience. We are neither passive marionettes whose strings are pulled by unknown forces, nor are we the hapless victims of chance and circumstance; we are the authors of our life experience."

"The Principle of Causality is a basic teaching in Buddhism; it describes a fundamental aspect of nature. It states that every phenomenon comes into being due to various causes and conditions. When the right cause and conditions come together, the right result or phenomenon arises. However, when the conditions fall apart, things fall apart. This is the way of all life.

Science, in fact, is based on causality. Things do not happen by accident but are related by causes. The task of the scientist is to discover the correct causal relationships. Buddhist causality, however, is wider in scope. It deals with both mental and physical phenomena.

The scripture says, "To know what you've done in the past, observe what is happening to you in this life. To know what will happen in the future, observe what you are doing in this life." This verse contains the key to understanding our fate. As with all phenomena, our fate also follows the Principle of Causality."

You have attempted to portray the life of a Zen practitioner as being unemotionally sterile. The lack of emotion is only present while sitting quietly, not in everyday life.

My purpose in this dialogue is to put forth my belief that Rand erred in her blanket condemnation of all things associated with Eastern religions. I think that if she had looked deeper she would have changed her mind with regard to Zen.

Sam



Post 43

Sunday, October 6, 2013 - 3:31pmSanction this postReply
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Sam,

I appreciate those quotes on causality. Sometimes these quotes can be esoteric and hard to get your mind around, so let's say I interpreted that first one wrongly (as you say I did). The next question I'd ask you is: Well, what is the correct interpretation of it then?

Regarding Rand being wrong about Buddhism, it's a strong statement to say that Rand was misinformed on a subject, if not outright deluded about it. It's not a crime to do that, it's just a strong statement. I make strong statements like that from time to time, and so I don't begrudge you in doing so. However, when people make strong statements about the limitations of another thinker, then a natural reaction is to ask for them to back it up by showing an understanding that supersedes the limitations of that thinker (in this case, Ayn Rand).

With this in mind -- that making a strong statement often leads to being asked to back it up -- can you find someone to interpret the following quote from Suzuki (from that same book)?:
The meaning of the proposition "A is A" is realized only when "A is not-A." To be is not to be itself--this is the logic of Zen, and satisfies all our aspirations.
And if you can't find anyone who is able to provide an interpretation of quotes such as this (or the first one) -- interpretations which would allow for Buddhism to be commensurate with Objectivism -- then you haven't really made a good case. It's not enough to offer some good quotes about some good subject (whether it be about causality or whatever). I can find good quotes in just about every kind of mongrel philosophy. I am willing to bet you that I can find really good, smart, and true quotes in virtually any holy book you place before me, or from virtually any demagogue preaching hatred of the good for being good. I'll bet even the anti-man, anti-life, anti-values philosophers like Kant, Hegel, and Marx said some good things. Good quotes don't settle issues, "bad" quotes do.*

If you can interpret these 2 bad quotes in a manner which makes Zen consistent with Objectivism, then you might have a good argument about Rand being wrong. Otherwise, you are just stating your personal 'gut feelings' about it -- which is not something about which one can argue, but is also not something that is very persuasive to others.

Ed

*Reconciling "bad" quotes gets you the traction required to attain intellectual or philosophical progress. Good quotes can be pulled from anywhere in an effort to cloak something wrong or evil -- as when a socialist says she is a champion of inalienable, individual rights -- so they don't prove anything. But a bad quote -- if not reconcilable -- proves something.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/06, 3:36pm)


Post 44

Sunday, October 6, 2013 - 6:04pmSanction this postReply
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Ed said:
"And if you can't find anyone who is able to provide an interpretation of quotes such as this (or the first one) -- interpretations which would allow for Buddhism to be commensurate with Objectivism -- then you haven't really made a good case."

Even though I can't provide the exact quotes from Nathaniel Branden, I recall that he had favorable comments on Eastern religions in general and even had an open mind on the paranormal (which I don't and I was surprised that he would have such a view.)

I don't think anyone is saying that Zen and Objectivism are commensurate. They are complementary and not in conflict.

Sam

Post 45

Sunday, October 6, 2013 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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Sam,

I'm aware that the psychologist Roger Callahan physically tapped on points along peoples' meridians (paths along which life energy, itself, flows -- in Traditional Chinese Medicine) in order to relieve negative emotions (Thought Field Therapy) and that Branden was sympathetic to this procedure. But that is all I know about his relation to East Asian philosophy or medicine.

And I made a mistake when I said "commensurate": I should have said "consistent with" (like I did at the end of that same post).

Ed


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Post 46

Monday, October 7, 2013 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Roger Callahan was watching a presentation being given for chiropractors while he was waiting for the psychology presentation he was at the hotel to see. They were doing some kind of tapping that changed the person's apparent strength, but wasn't related to psychology. It triggered some creative thinking in Callahan and he started experimenting.

At least that's how I understand the beginning of this tapping business. Callahan had some stunning results and he tried to tell Nathaniel who was NOT sympathetic early on. But Callahan was a friend, and he persisted in touting this wonderful technique. Nathaniel has always been open to new techniques, which is very different from being open to some wacky new theory. After a number of years, Nathaniel gave it a try and convinced himself that something was going on here.

Branden described this as energy flows and along meridians, but I never had the feeling that he was invested in the theory - it was more like a convenient explanation, like whatever they used to explain how aspirin worked before they understood the biochemical pathways it used.

I never liked the Chinese/Indian traditional medicine or energy meridian explanation and I wanted an explanation that made sense to me. I used the technique with a great many clients when I was practicing and the results ARE stunning when it works.

My explanation is that some experiences we have are traumatic, if only in the sense that the intensity of the fear we experience is very high and has lasting effects that are triggered. My belief is that the traumatic experience creates/invokes circuits in parts of the brain stem - our lizard brain. Specifically, the amygdala can respond to severe traumas with an fear response that seems to be recorded such that it gets replayed each time a trigger is encountered (PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, is a perfect example).

The experience lays down a memory and forms connections apart from the fore-brain, giving us less control over our fear reactions to those things that act as triggers. The explanation so far isn't mine, it is backed by research.

Here is where I add my made-up part to explain tapping's effectiveness. The client is asked to remember that which is scary for them (objects or actions related to phobias, or PTSD type trauma triggers), and that excites those circuits, and the therapist taps while asking the client to do what they can to keep the fears as high as possible. My belief is that the tapping somehow interrupts a needed rewrite function. That somehow, a traumatic memory stored in the lizard brain needs to renew itself somehow, as it is triggered, or it is gone. The evolutionary value of having a trigger to generate instant fight or flight reactions is understandable. A young lizard is sunning itself on a rock, there is a shadow and a swishing sound and the lizard starts to run, but too late - a hawk manages to get his talons into the lizard's tail. The tail is torn off. Very traumatic and the lizard's brain will now automatically send it running at full speed the next time there is a shadow or a swishing sound. Why a logic routine would have the feature of needing to be rewritten automatically as part of its exercise... I don't know.

That's my theory and I've just made it up since all I need was a way to hold this in my mind as a possible explanation that wasn't part of a mystical Oriental philosophy that I don't agree with. I have no idea how Nathaniel holds it in his mind (he may be using "meridians" as a metaphor).

Whatever the actual mechanism turns out to be, it is quite real but limited on what it works for. In my experience it wasn't as helpful, or not helpful at all with many of the normal defense mechanism type of emotional issues (shame, guilt, depression, anger, anxiety, etc.) but often a 15 minute cure... CURE...(not something psychologists get to claim that often) for some fear-based issues.

It has been several decades since I've heard what Nathaniel has to say about Tapping (that's what I call it), and his thinking has probably evolved and his techniques improved over what I learned from him.

Here is what he wrote about Energy Psychology in 2002 (copied from his web site):
--------------------

Brief Comments on Energy Psychology
by Nathaniel Branden, Ph.D. (nathaniel@nathanielbranden.com)
Copyright © 2002, Nathaniel Branden, All Rights Reserved

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been asked to discuss how I integrate Energy Psychology with the kind of issues I discuss in my books, which chiefly have to do with self-esteem, autonomy, and self-development.

Let me mention that I write of "Energy Psychology" rather than "Thought Field Therapy" (TFT) because the latter is one school, although by far the most influential one, within the wider field of Energy Psychology. These days I am immersed in the study and practice of Seemorg Matrix Work, developed by Asha Clinton. Clinton uses some of work originated by Roger Callahan in TFT and I understand that TFT people use some of Clinton's work... which is all as it should be.

I think of psychotherapy as having two broad tasks: the elimination of negatives (phobias, anxiety, depression, self-destructive attitudes, etc.) -- and the cultivation of positives (living consciously, self-acceptingly, self-responsibly, self-assertively, purposefully, with integrity, a positive attitude toward the challenges and opportunities of life, etc.)

Although these two tasks commonly overlap, there are distinctions here that need to be understood.

The absence of anxiety does not equal the presence of self-confidence. The absence of depression does not equal the presence of happiness. The elimination of negatives does not guarantee the establishment of positives.

The elimination of negatives opens the door to the possibility of building positives, but different processes are involved.

My writing has chiefly been concerned not with the overcoming of negatives (although indirectly my work has often proven helpful in that regard, if only by inspiring courage) but with clarifying the kind of positives essential to a fulfilling life (e.g., the six pillars of self-esteem).

I have found Energy work extraordinarily helpful in dealing with negatives--healing traumas and eliminating traumatic patterns, overcoming anxieties and insecurities, healing psychic wounds, curing phobias, lifting depression, and so forth. But I have never found any school of Energy Psychology to be a totally stand-alone therapy.

So in my work I interweave the kind of themes I write about into my practice when I am also using some form of Energy Psychology -- and I interweave what I have learned from Energy Psychology into my practice when I am working with someone on issues of self-development and self-actualization.

When I am working on eliminating negatives, I am also weaving in positives--and when I am working on developing positives, I sometimes need to pause to focus on the elimination of a negative.

Does Energy Psychology offer some tools for installing positives? Yes. Some. But by my standards not enough by itself. I might be mistaken but I don't think most therapists of a basically Energy orientation would give me an argument about this.

Surely it is enough to say that in my judgment Energy Psychology has made revolutionary contributions and I am profoundly grateful to colleagues like Callahan and Clinton.

Forgive the brevity of this note, by I am being very wicked by playing hooky from the book I am writing to dash off this note. I hope it's useful.
--------------------------------------------

Post 47

Monday, October 7, 2013 - 8:24pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Thanks for the elaborate response and even for the intriguing ad hoc/post hoc explanation!

I admit that I am the type of guy who could actually discover whether there is good (or even any!) published evidence that "implanted memories", etc. require what it is that we would refer to in cyberspace as "updates" -- in order to remain functionally expressive in the organism -- but I am just too tired to discover this now (the discovery process may require up to a dozen hours of literature research!) and I don't know when, if ever, I will take it up as a task. 

:-(

Maybe I'll surprise you ...

:-O

Ed


Post 48

Saturday, October 12, 2013 - 7:13amSanction this postReply
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Surprise!

The evidence is in (see abstracts below), and it indicates that your theory of the-requirement-of-memory-updates-as-they-get-triggered** is correct:

Reconsolidation of memory: a decade of debate.
The consolidation theory posits that once a memory is stored in the brain, it remains fixed for the lifetime of the memory. However, compelling evidence has suggested that upon recall, memories can re-enter a state of transient instability, requiring further stabilisation to be available once again for recall.
Ed

**"My belief is that the tapping somehow interrupts a needed rewrite function. That somehow, a traumatic memory stored in the lizard brain needs to renew itself somehow, as it is triggered, or it is gone. ... Why a logic routine would have the feature of needing to be rewritten automatically as part of its exercise... I don't know."

Further Reading
On remembering and forgetting our autobiographical pasts: retrograde amnesia and Andrew Mayes's contribution to neuropsychological method.
... episodic and semantic memory show important interdependencies at both encoding and retrieval. Such factors may be critical to understanding what is remembered and what is forgotten from our autobiographical pasts.
Epigenetic regulation of memory formation and maintenance.
In the last decade, epigenetic markers like DNA methylation and post-translational modifications of histone tails have emerged as important regulators of the memory process. Their ability to regulate gene transcription dynamically in response to neuronal activation supports the consolidation of long-term memory. Furthermore, the persistent and self-propagating nature of these mechanisms, particularly DNA methylation, suggests a molecular mechanism for memory maintenance.
Upgrading the sleeping brain with targeted memory reactivation.
A fundamental feature of human memory is the propensity for beneficial changes in information storage after initial encoding. Recent research findings favor the possibility that memory consolidation during sleep is instrumental for actively maintaining the storehouse of memories that individuals carry through their lives.
About sleep's role in memory.
Specifically, newer findings characterize sleep as a brain state optimizing memory consolidation, in opposition to the waking brain being optimized for encoding of memories. Consolidation originates from reactivation of recently encoded neuronal memory representations, which occur during SWS and transform respective representations for integration into long-term memory. Ensuing REM sleep may stabilize transformed memories. While elaborated with respect to hippocampus-dependent memories, the concept of an active redistribution of memory representations from networks serving as temporary store into long-term stores ...
The brain on stress: vulnerability and plasticity of the prefrontal cortex over the life course.
Behavioral stress affects both the structure and function of PFC, though such effects are not necessarily permanent, as young animals show remarkable neuronal resilience if the stress is discontinued. During aging, neurons within the PFC become less resilient to stress. There are also sex differences in the PFC response to stressors. While such stress and sex hormone-related alterations occur in regions mediating the highest levels of cognitive function and self-regulatory control, the fact that they are not necessarily permanent has implications for future behavior-based therapies that harness neural plasticity for recovery.


Post 49

Saturday, October 12, 2013 - 8:20amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Thank you.

I understand that the real value of discovering that one correctly understands some phenomena ultimately lies in the actions that opens to one, but it's also kinda nice that it feels good!
-----

p.s., It is only the limitations of this technology that prevent you from seeing me doing a small victory dance in response to your surprise :-)



Post 50

Sunday, November 3, 2013 - 5:38amSanction this postReply
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Apologies to Ed Thompson and congratulations to him for staying true.  I am reading god is not Great by Christopher Hitchens. His comments on Buddhism, "There is no 'Eastern' Solution", were revelations to me. 

My only awareness of the civil war in Sri Lanka was of the Tamil Tigers, their suicide bombings, and their intention to unite that nation with India. In fact, the Buddhist leaders and cadres were no better.

Those of us here who endorsed meditation and nodded - if not nodded off - to Buddhism, all knew about Shinto and Zen in World War II, but we glossed over that, as Catholics do about priests blessing not only the hapless soldiers, but the cannons that kill them.  Japanese Buddhists not only endorsed the war and its aggression, not only announced the divinity of the emperor, they declared him superior to the original Buddha who appeared in India. (Hitchens quotes Brian Victoria, Zen at War.)

Hitchens rakes the Dalai Lhama over the coals, but curiously does not call him by his name, Tenzin Gyatso, though he does identify the almost all of the modern Popes by their secular names.  While Hitchens allows that Tibet perhaps should be independent, he also reminds us that the Dalai Lama is a heritary monarch and that his line has no better claim to humane treatment of its subjects. 

Hitchens also draws on his own investigation of Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh, whose temple required that people leave their shoes and their minds at the door. Hitchens asserts that the town of Antelope, Oregon, narrowly avoided a Jonestown massacre, when they found that someone had poisoned the produce in local supermarket. The Rajneesh compound soon packed up and left.

Does any of that - or all of it; how much is necessary or sufficient? - invalidate the benefits to meditation, or the utilty of karate and juijitsu? 

Hitchens's thesis here is that many people live well and do good by others often because of their own religious experience; and so do non-religious people.  But only religion can justify the horrors perpetrated since its inception, and can only do so exactly because it is not reasonable, not rational, not logical, not empirical, not evidentiary, and not testable.  Religion is not objectively true. Hitchens was a rationalist and a materialist. Time and again through all of his writings, he appeals to the critical judgment of his reader.  For Hitchens, writing was a conversation between two people.  


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