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Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
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I wondered when someone was finally going to bring this out - knew this of her many years ago, and was always surprised no one else ever caught it..  that this is included in this collection also puts to question the view of ARI as being vitrolically anti-religionist....  what made you bring this forth and at this time, Robert?


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Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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I posted it for two reasons: first, because I just discovered it, thanks to a post by Michael Kelly on his site; and second, because too many self-proclaimed Objectivists stupidly equate "all religious people" with "irrational, evil people" -- which Rand clearly didn't. To read many of the online fulminations by alleged Objectivists, you'd think that the philosophy mandates collective judgments: i.e., all Christians are irrationalists; all Muslims are jihadists; etc.

Rand was too much of an individualist to pass collective judgments.

You bring up ARI, Robert, and I'm not sure why. I regard supporters of ARI as individuals, not as any kind of a collective, and I have no idea how many do or don't pass negative collective judgments against religious people. My beefs with ARI -- the organization, not the rank-and-file membership -- lie elsewhere.

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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I stand corrected - you are quite right - it is as individuals that one should consider others, not the group...  I had only mentioned it as a group because there seems, as the organization, a certain viewpoint on this matter which, like the viewpoint on libertarians, brand all amidst with the same charred feathers.....

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 8:47amSanction this postReply
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Being a Deist of sorts myself I appreciate this quote quite a lot. Thanks for posting it Robert.

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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As a Deist and an Objectivist myself, I can appreciate this statement of Rand's. Thanks for posting it Robert.

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
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While I find the idea of a personal God ludicrous, I agree with Rand that the concepts of the spiritual, and the sacred are not only valid, they are a vital necessity.  Abandoning them to the mystics is ethical abdication.  Only a religion of reason - an ethic and a ritual - of value will ever have a real hope of serving as an alternative to faith.  Both stoicism and Epicureanism were viewed as secular religions in their time.  I won't pretend to have a revelation here, but I do know that active atheism as an antipathy toward the divine is no virtue in itself, and is as often a pathology as it is a reasoned conclusion.  There is one undeniable miracle - one inexplicable existent - existence itself.  Things are what they are. But that they are is a blessing.  One might call this optimism, pantheism, the "benevolent universe premise" or just plain sentimentality.  I'll be happy whatever the case.

Ted Keer, 07 October 2006, USA</br>

(Edited by Ted Keer on 10/07, 4:20pm)


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Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 3:40pmSanction this postReply
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Here is the rest of the reply by Rand to that question for those who are interested (from the Q&A book, same place). I find it a bit off-key to read Rand quoting Christ benevolently, but there it is.

Of course, one should not forbid religion. Today’s culture is such that the moment you oppose something, people believe you want to forbid it by law. If we get that, we return to the dark ages. Leave people the right to be wrong in their own way. So long as they don’t force their ideas on you, you cannot forbid religion to anyone. Further, it’s not difficult to fight religion when you have a good philosophy.

In America, you would not find it difficult to divorce religion from altruism. After all, Christ said: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” So you must love yourself. After that, you can argue about your neighbors.
Michael

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Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 8:22pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, I think this quotation is interesting and worth pointing out, but I don't agree that "Rand was too much of an individualist to pass collective judgments." For example, how then would you explain her characterization in 1981 of libertarians as a "monstrous, disgusting bunch of people"? Or her collective denunciations of Communists?




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Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 9:40pmSanction this postReply
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Rand did not Denounce All Communists, Just Communism.

John,

I remember reading that said she liked speaking to (intellectual - not thuggish) communists better than unideological types for one reason - they were already committed to thinking in terms of principles and were motivated to find a "true" systematic approach to life, they just happened to have made some (possibly innocent) mistakes.  Of course, this would have to apply on an individual basis, as it does those of us with religious pasts, whether benign or, in some cases, not.

Ted


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Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

What have you read about Jesus, and what is your religious background, if I might ask?  Have you read, for instance, the Gospel of Thomas?  A.N Wilson's Jesus?  Much of what Jesus said can be taken as a renunciation of the idea of military messianism and of spirituality as authority based, rather than a personal matter.  (Although much is simply Jewish mysticism and even bigotry, however broad-minded.)  Much of the evil in Christianity comes form the teachings of Paul (so much so that I think in many ways "Paulism" would be a better description of the religion than "Christianity,") and from the establishment, against all Jesus's teachings, of Christianity as a secular power under the latter emperors.  It may be pointless to expect O'ists in general to take up biblical studies or comparative religion, but as a purely historical matter, one can find few people more influential in Western culture than Jesus.  On that basis alone, he is indeed a proper subject of study, and a much more palatable one to me than Plato, Kant, or the dog-eaten prophet of the throat-slitters.

Ted, in transit


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Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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Ted wrote:

I remember reading that said she liked speaking to (intellectual - not thuggish) communists better than unideological types for one reason - they were already committed to thinking in terms of principles and were motivated to find a "true" systematic approach to life, they just happened to have made some (possibly innocent) mistakes.  Of course, this would have to apply on an individual basis, as it does those of us with religious pasts, whether benign or, in some cases, not.

If someone could locate exactly where she said this, and what she said, that would prove quite enlightening.  Recall that much of the flap between David Kelley and the ARI leadership back in the late 1980s came over his casual remark about the error or evasion of an academic Marxist.  Kelley argued that such an academic could in fact fall to innocent error while Peter Schwartz and company shot back that no contemporary academic Marxist could maintain his views honestly.  I actually sympathize with Schwartz's harsh and sweeping views of such academics but would like to read what Ayn Rand had to say about this.


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Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ted: "Rand did not Denounce All Communists, Just Communism."

No, that's not true. For example, in 1976 during one of Leonard Peikoff's lectures on Objectivism, she said that communists as such were properly considered "enemies of this country, and worse, of mankind."

Perhaps it's true that before the "Great Split of '68" AR did refrain from making collective moral judgments. But after that, she appears to have been willing to morally condemn entire groups of people. I think that event embittered her and made her far more likely to consider groups of people her "enemies", justified or not. That's reflected in the tone and sweep of many of her public statements when you compare them to statements she made prior to the break (see Ayn Rand Answers).

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Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 12:48pmSanction this postReply
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I'd check Rand's letters first for the Communist (or perhaps Marxist) remark, but as I've said elsewhere, I don't usually retain chapter & verse.  As for John's comment that she did make broad condemnations, everything would have to be looked at contextually.  She most certainly would have said that in a forum discussing the Cold War.  Look at Bob's quote beginning this string where she speaks of Americans as being good materialists.  She was a monist, not a materialist, but given the context of her statement, we know what she must have meant, that most Americans are Lockean type realists, not Berkeleyan type idealists or garden variety mystics.  I'm pretty sure that the Communist remark was in something biographical or perhaps in one of her essays criticizing the religious right.  A Randian concordance might help. 

Ted



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Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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Is no one going to challenge me on "ritual" from post 5?

Ted


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Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 1:57pmSanction this postReply
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Ted asked:

Is no one going to challenge me on "ritual" from post 5?

No, I think some rituals have rational meaning.  I go through a ritual daily of brushing my teeth, exercising, etc.  A graduation ritual also has rational meaning.  So does a secular wedding ceremony.  Why would anyone challenge these?


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Sunday, October 8, 2006 - 9:33pmSanction this postReply
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The Birds and the Elephants

A friend of mine, in many ways a more orthodox objectivist than myself, told me that he had his son baptized Catholic because he has not attended one secular marriage that he has not found hokey. Perhaps one must be raised within such a tradition in order to have such a feeling. My friend, raised Catholic (as I) advised me that it was Catholic school itself that made him an atheist. I went to public school, and became an atheist only after reading Rand for the first time - one week after reading the Virtue of Selfishness. (Both of us are atheists, neither is an anti-theist.) It is a truism grounded in some truth that all Catholics, even the lapsed, are baptized, betrothed and buried in the Church.

I would not, (with thanks to Luke for his not un-solicited prompting,) include the habit of tooth brushing under the same concept of the rite of marriage. I would define a ritual as a formalized expression of the acknowledgement of an existential value. Whereas a work of art recreates a reality, a ritual acknowledges the spiritual value - the sanctity - of a reality. Art and ritual would both be aesthetic phenomena.

Current secular rituals include the pledge of allegiance, the playing of the Star Spangled Banner, or Hail to the Chief, marriage, frat-boy hazing, and the various appurtenances of an athletic match - a fact which the nihilistic forces of P.C. anti-mascot agitators know instinctively and detest viscerally, but would unlikely identify explicitly. The same reason leads gay activists to seek not only the private sanction, but also the unconstitutional state sanction of not a contract, but a ritual - a religious blessing. Neither kashrut nor sharia nor gay marriage has a right to claim the legal sanction of the state.

Ritual is not, if I may dare say it, an unmixed blessing. Ritual cleansing and self-abuse become ends in themselves for the flagellant or the obsessive compulsive. The disturbing symptoms of each seem to demonstrate a biological basis for ritualized behavior. Such behavior may have its origins in the sublimation of the urges that drive grooming, (tooth brushing?) nest-maintenance, predator evasion, mating displays and other activities subject to Lorenzian displacement.

Hijacking the rituals of an existent tradition such as Catholicism would seem to be inappropriate for avowed atheists. Yet Rand was both married and laid to rest in the same way as a Christian or a Jew. And not in the same way as a muslim or a Jainist. I am not aware of any treatment of this topic from the standpoint of rational egoism. Even birds court and elephants mourn. Men too should have their rituals.

Ted Keer, 09 October, 2006, NYC
© Theodore Keer, 2006. All rights, save those waived here, are reserved by the author.


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Monday, October 9, 2006 - 6:35amSanction this postReply
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I wonder what Aynie would think in light of the recent resurge in Evangelicalism. This as all occurred after her death.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 - 11:57amSanction this postReply
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"Aynie?"

Biblical literalists are scary. But what alternative are they being offered? Moral relativism, P.C. indoctrination and public schools that cripple the ability to think critically.

Aina is a Finnish name, meaning "always," or "ever." Rand liked the sound, I wonder if she knew the meaning?

Any comments from anyone on an atheist objectivist raising a child within a Church?

Ted
(Edited by Ted Keer
on 10/09, 12:05pm)


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Monday, October 9, 2006 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
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In light of the government alternative, I can endorse an Objectivist sending his child to Catholic school provided he supplies the needed secularism at home.

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Monday, October 9, 2006 - 5:43pmSanction this postReply
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I was not knocking Catholic school. I went to a very good public school, apparently. How about taking a child to church every week, in order to raise him in a tradition, but teaching him to be a free thinker, and not hiding one's own atheism from him? Church provides an exercise in patience, a grounding in one's culture, an opportunity to discuss moral issues. I went to mass every week until I was 18, for two years as an open atheist. I did not take communion or join in spoken prayer, but did attend and obey the proper behavior for a non-believer. I valued the opportunity to do the reading at my sister's funeral mass. Is there an Objectivist or secular alternative for this? And is there an Objectivist justification for not just letting the birds eat our dead as the Jainists do?

Ted
(Edited by Ted Keer
on 10/09, 5:49pm)


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