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Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 3:20amSanction this postReply
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I cannot, CANNOT believe, that someone would deign to put Fromm on here as a quote interesting to Objectivists...this is the man who said that mankind was the aberration, the unnatural part of Earth and living.

Post 1

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 4:41amSanction this postReply
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The terminal velocity of honey might sound more sticky and sweet, yet to the intellect it is no more so than any other mathematical quotient. So it is with this.

Many many Solonaughts are trying to answer my challenge, not with reason but with the ring of truth. Pretty words, without authority. The best answer so far is the sincere appeal to do one's duty to God but fromm everyone else nothing but pretty words. But pretty words butter no parsnips!

Away with the honey talk! Where are your syllogisms Objectivists?



Post 2

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 5:29amSanction this postReply
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Sure, Rick - even Hitler was said to love dogs.....

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Post 3

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
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Rick,

Some aggregates of matter have the property of being alive. A local attempt to defeat the entropic law. More complex living aggregates have evolved complicated strategies for maintaining this living organization of matter. Sometimes these more complex strategies have unintended consequences resulting in the unexpected early demise of an individual organism as a result of trying to attach meaning to their particular aggregate of matter.

Post 4

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 6:58amSanction this postReply
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Steven Druckenmiller wrote:
I cannot, CANNOT believe, that someone would deign to put Fromm on here as a quote interesting to Objectivists...this is the man who said that mankind was the aberration, the unnatural part of Earth and living.
I find it interesting that a man like Fromm could utter a line so consonant with Objectivism and yet draw conclusions so divergent from it.


Post 5

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 7:59amSanction this postReply
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I like the quote.

Just remember, even Karl Marx sometimes made sensible statements,

'The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.'

If someone has something worthwhile to say, we can still take it on board and acknowledge it ourselves in the correct context.



Post 6

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 8:06amSanction this postReply
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I like the quote too. He had his moments, now and then.

I used to think of things like this as stupid Hallmark-style bromides. You know, "every day is what you make of it," and so on. The thing is, it's an obvious truth, one of many that we often ignore. Then, you're dead.

rde


Post 7

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 8:36amSanction this postReply
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Rich,

LOL...
The thing is, it's an obvious truth, one of many that we often ignore. Then, you're dead.
I heard this differently - Richard Pryor I think:

Life's a bitch. Then you die!

//;-)

Michael


Post 8

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
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Michael.

Life's a bitch. Then you die!
Was that Pryor? And here I thought it was just good 'ol Buddhist pessimism.  It would be a good title to use if you took a Wagner piece, say, and turned it into a Broadway production. Wouldn't that be nice?


Post 9

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 8:52amSanction this postReply
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Objectivism is an answer to Marxism, If you want to know what communism is all about you read Atlas.
Objectivism has milked so much (and I mean this in a benevolent way) from  Marx, and Fromm.
What all this concepts about productive work, selfesteem,purpose etc...are? if not an answer to Marx and Fromm.
we fight what we hate, and what we hate makes us think.
Dc




Post 10

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 2:55pmSanction this postReply
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Steven Druckenmiller: "I cannot, CANNOT believe, that someone would deign to put Fromm on here...."

Well, as Mrs. Gump said, "Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get." (Another "Life" quote!)

In fairness to Fromm, communitarian socialist that he is, his view on personal freedom and growth is eerily consistent with objectivism. And sometimes even more radical: He wrote the foreword to A.S. Neill's Summerhill - A Radical Approach to Child Rearing. In rejecting both capitalism and communism, he shows himself more a Russellian than Marxist. He's also been called an existentialist (hmmm, this man is hard to pin down).

As for the "mankind was the aberration, the unnatural part of Earth"... I think you meant this:
Man is born as a freak of nature, being within nature and yet transcending it. He has to find principles of action and decision making which replace the principles of instincts. He has to have a frame of orientation which permits him to organize a consistent picture of the world as a condition for consistent actions. He has to fight not only against the dangers of dying, starving, and being hurt, but also against another anger which is specifically human: that of becoming insane. In other words, he has to protect himself not only against the danger of losing his life but also against the danger of losing his mind.

- The Revolution of Hope: Toward a Humanized Technology, pp. 60-61 (1963)
Sounds a bit Randish, don't you think?

If Sarah House is reading this... it might interest you to know that Fromm was one of the first thinkers to dabble on the relationship between personality types and preferred political-economic systems. He came up with this table (from Escape from Freedom):

OrientationSocietyFamilyEscape from Freedom
ReceptivePeasant societySymbiotic (passive)Authoritarian (masochistic)
ExploitativeAristocratic societySymbiotic (active)Authoritarian (sadistic)
HoardingBourgeois societyWithdrawing (puritanical)Perfectionist to destructive
MarketingModern societyWithdrawing (infantile)Automaton conformist
ProductiveHumanistic communitarian socialismLoving and reasoningFreedom and responsibility acknowledged and accepted


To be clear, I'm not endorsing the truth of this classification - just one example of Fromm's (many) thoughts... I must admit that it's intriguing that personality traits are commonly used to infer ideological adherence, even in casual conversations, however subconcious the process might be.

Ciro D'Agostino, I think that Rand and Fromm developed their ideas independent of each other. Although contemporaries, I know of no correspondence between them.

Rick Giles, how could a simple truism (which in this case, transcended political leanings) qualify as somehow worse than a theological construct? If you protest a non-mind teleology, then say so straightforwardly - you're accusing us here of not providing reason while you're withholding your own.

MSK and Rich (friends of fatalism, LOL!), you both might like this one from Kafka:

"The meaning of life is that it stops."

Post 11

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 2:59pmSanction this postReply
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That sounds like a quote from Mencken's 'Book of Quotations'...

Post 12

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 7:27pmSanction this postReply
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Hells bells Mike Erickson! You sound like Hamlet after the Borg have gotten to him!

ie "What a piece of work is man! how noble in reason! how infinite in faculties! in form and moving how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world! the paragon of animals! And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? man delights me not."
Rick Giles, how could a simple truism (which in this case, transcended political leanings) qualify as somehow worse than a theological construct? If you protest a non-mind teleology, then say so straightforwardly - you're accusing us here of not providing reason while you're withholding your own.
My gripe is not the lack of a reason so much as the agenda to substitute slogans and catch-cries for reason. If we could only get away from this nonsense and onto the right track- reason- then conditions would be improved.

Theological constructs are superior to truism because they at least have honest dealings with questions and answers.

Your average Objectivist is quick to jump on contradictions, but only negative contradictions. A tautology like the one you've quoted above is simply a positive contradiction and every bit as bad- to my mind.

Contradictions in all forms are always worse since it is for the sake of these that we judge theology to be bunk.


Post 13

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
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"You sound like Hamlet after the Borg have gotten to him!"

Very funny! A better reply than my poor attempt at humor at 6 o'clock in the morning deserved.

I am at a loss to see what you're getting at exactly. You remind me of an old boss, "I don't get headaches, I give headaches!" How can we talk of THE meaning of life.

I've got it. Our values are our meaning. If we valued nothing our lives certainly would have no meaning. Our values give us purpose in what we pursue and create and that gives our lives meaning. Does that smoke in your syllogistic pipe?

Post 14

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 10:36pmSanction this postReply
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Num++, I agree with you when you say : I think that Rand and Fromm developed their ideas independent of each other. Although contemporaries, I know of no correspondence between them.
What I wanted to say is this: Dr. Fromm created the soil  for new ideas and discoveries about human psychology.
We can profit from someone's idea be it good or bad. I am not comparing Ayn Rand to Dr.Fromm
But didn't Ms. Rand  profit from Marx  ideas?. Rand's philosophy is not in a vacum, her philosophy was an answer to previous philosophers, to her contemporaries philosophers, and soil for future philosophers.


Post 15

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 1:08amSanction this postReply
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Hi Ciro,

Ayn Rand of course did not create her philosophy nor her fiction in a cultural vacuum. Who addresses and completely covers that issue brilliantly is Chris Matthew Sciabarra in Ayn Rand The Russian Radical.

Michael


Post 16

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 1:16amSanction this postReply
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Great! I along with "many many Solonaughts" now have an "agenda to substitute slogans and catch-cries for reason." Yeah, motive-based argumentation is best for reasoned debate. To get back "on the right track," I would expect more objectivity and less griping.
Theological constructs are superior to truism because they at least have honest dealings with questions and answers
A truism is not dishonest - it is simply a statement of an obvious truth. For the quote above, a fundamental truth. Your assumption of dishonesty is based on another motive-based argument: that since the current replies haven't satisfied you, we must simply be evading your "challenge." Let's leave the motive-suppositions aside, shall we?

Theology is dishonest. It posits the supernatural to provide ontology, while leaving the question of the supernatural's own ontology unanswered. The whole enterprise begs the question of what is metaphysically true, then tries to escape reason via "faith." Incantations, rituals, and rapture, however satiating as emotional substitutes for conviction, do not provide truth. I'll get back on this a few paragraphs down.

If you want to start a formal objective system for building a reason-based understanding of "Life, the universe, and everything," you have to start with truisms - just as mathematics have to rely on postulates. Only on the bedrock of obvious truths can solid foundations of philosophy be laid.
A tautology like the one you've quoted above is simply a positive contradiction and every bit as bad- to my mind.

Contradictions in all forms are always worse since it is for the sake of these that we judge theology to be bunk.

"A is A"

Oh my Galt... the horror! Due to the "positive contradiction" of this tautology, Objectivism is "bunk!"

From wikipedia: In logic, a tautology is a statement which is true by its own definition. All true statements of logic and mathematics are tautologies. Also, outside logic and mathematics, sometimes means a useless tautology, ie, one that is uninformative. This definition is imprecise, as all statements are informative in some context. [Since we're discussing philosophy, we have to take the 'logic' definition.]

What do you mean by "positive contradiction"? That phrase sounds, well, contradictory. Please provide a definition outside of theology or Hegel. We wouldn't want to smuggle question-begging concepts wholesale through the backdoor of the undefined. 'Contradiction' has a precise meaning in Aristotelian thought: the simultaneous assertion of a statement and its negation. Given this, a tautology cannot be contradictory of itself.

Metaphysics can be seen as a very dry subject. Its purpose is to provide a non-contradictory and non-superficial basis for explaining the nature of reality. It is not the purpose of metaphysics to somehow provide us transportation to the bliss of existence. That would be more akin to aesthetics. The aridity of the subject's exposition in no way bars us from any emotive component of living life fully.



Ciro D'Agostino, we are agreed that Rand profited from the conflict of her philosophy with Marx's; both in the added motivation it brought her and in the actual negation of his ideas. That much is readily apparent in her polemical style. However, my personal perspective of Objectivism per se (as a philosophy divorced from the personage of Ayn) is as a modern development of Aristotelian thought. Any perceived "answer" is merely a by-product of other philosophies' floundering on the shoals of logical rigor. Objectivism is more 'asserting rightness' and less 'development through conflict.'

My personal perspective again: The psychology expounded in Rand's non-fiction is probably the weakest point of Objectivism. Too much of the obsolete tabula rasa remains - while science has advanced with more accurate ideas of human nature. Her condemnation of homosexuality springs from this flaw. It remains to be seen how much science can inform, and eventually reform, the philosophy; the current 'orthodoxy' may be much too closed to care.

Post 17

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 6:38amSanction this postReply
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"There is only one meaning of life: the act of living itself" 
 




If it weren't for the "only", that would be a nearly perfect tautology.

Does anyone know from where Mr Fromm "deduced" the need of the "only"?

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/29, 6:46am)


Post 18

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
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Thank you Mike, I read  AR the RR.
When I bought the book, I didn't know who Mr Sciabarra was. I  had bought it only because the author had an Italian last name, but after reading the book, Mr Sciabarra became one of my favorite paisano.
Thank god that a man with a mind like that is not on the sicilians' side.  ;)
best Ciro.

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 6/29, 2:00pm)

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 6/29, 10:05pm)

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 6/29, 10:08pm)


Post 19

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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Joel Català: "Does anyone know from where Mr. Fromm 'deduced' the need of the 'only'?"

From "one"?


Ciro D'Agostino: "...I read AR the RR."

"A is A" and "R is R" dammit... ;-)

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