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Post 0

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 9:09amSanction this postReply
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The word "choose" smacks of a Primacy of Consciousness position.

Is that accurate, Nathan?

Ed

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Post 1

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Remember to distinguish what IS legal from what SHOULD BE legal. What IS the law of the land is someone's arbitrary decision, nothing more, nothing less. The more objective matter is what SHOULD BE the law.

Post 2

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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Well said Robert.

Post 3

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 1:54pmSanction this postReply
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Yes Robert, well said.

Ed


Post 4

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 6:20amSanction this postReply
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Spot on Robert.

Post 5

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
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I don't think it is a question of determining "what is legal?"

What is in fact is determined is "what is illegal?" Everything that is not illegal, should be legal.

That is not an arbitrary distinction at all, but a practical one.


Post 6

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 7:41amSanction this postReply
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Nathan is correct. "Legal" is simply a descriptive term of what comports with laws passed. It does not imply ought, only implies is.

Post 7

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 7:46amSanction this postReply
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[Nathan Hawking:] "There is no ultimate standard for what is legal."

If you mean that there are no ultimate standards at all, then you are saying that all standards (and thus all laws) are ultimately arbitrary, and I don't think that's correct.

Besides, the law of the land should only define what is illegal (e.g., steal or murder), not what is legal. That should be so both for practical and ethical reasons.

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/16, 8:03am)

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/16, 8:05am)


Post 8

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 7:18amSanction this postReply
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To say what is legal and what is not,  is like saying to whom and for what.
Dc


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Post 9

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 3:49pmSanction this postReply
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In the US, most legislative laws are actually illegal themselves if the constitution is properly applied.

The Declaration of Independence correctly identified that man has natural rights.

The Bill of Rights was an attempt to enumerate those rights. The most important of those amendments, and the most widely ignored, is the ninth: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

If a man-made law is in violation of man's natural rights, the US Supreme Court should properly strike it down because those laws are illegal.

Illegal laws, what a concept.


Post 10

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
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Congrats Joel.  You get the brass ring.

It took seven posts before someone took a look at the first sentence. 


Post 11

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 11:09pmSanction this postReply
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Warning: Hyper-Rational Alert

Robert, I did look at the first sentence (which I'll call the Metaphysical sentence) and realized it was false -- but chose not to bring it up yet. Instead, I tried to go "through a side door" in my criticism, and opened my case against the quote by using the second sentence (which I'll call the Epistemological sentence).

While it's true that there is an ultimate standard (of the actualization of all individual lives within a given system of justice), I felt it more productive to first tackle the "How do you know that?" question.

In my mind, I thought that tackling THIS question -- rather than merely stating axiomatic things such A is A, but only more LOUDLY -- would more reliably lead to progress in a discussion of the quote's inaccuracy.

There is truth, and there is knowledge of it. Truth stands on its own. Transferring knowledge of it (to self or others) requires taking psycho-epistemology into account. Folks should be pressed as to how they know things.

In sum then, the saying that: "The Truth shall set you Free" is not quite precise enough (for contextually-absolute accuracy). Correct epistemology (our only means of gaining possession of truth) is actually what it is that sets us free.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 6/16, 11:12pm)


Post 12

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 5:49amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for your kind comments, Robert.

Joel Català


Post 13

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 7:17amSanction this postReply
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Whatever you say, Ed.

Post 14

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 12:09pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, all I'm trying to say is that, while there is a right answer to the question (of an ultimate standard) there are 2 ways to get to that one right answer.

Method One: reductio ad absurdum*
Assume a conclusion --and its absurdity -- then go back to check the truth/relevance of premises to find the necessary mistake.

*This one allows for a battle to be won (a single argument)


Method Two: integratio el epistemologicus** (I made this one up)
Assume that only rational agents gain knowledge, and only by a specific means. The means to transfer knowledge then, becomes more than merely stating a conclusion's truth. Debating agents themselves are called to the task of presenting how it is that they can know things. There is only one right way for humans to know things (ie. the one that simultaneously involves evidence and reasoning).

**This one allows for a whole war to be won (a single mind)

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 6/17, 12:10pm)


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