RoR: Forum

I went with "expensive but watered down". The Senate has just barely 60 D votes, several of whom have big problems with various aspects of the bill, and only 1 R (Snowe of Maine) likely to vote for even a weak version of the bill.

And, the public is rapidly souring on the whole deal, with a mid-term election looming:

http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/healthplan.php

If this slips into January or February or later, no deal at all is possible.

Post 1

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 4:08pm

I voted for the bill with public option, but I think they will hide the public option as a trigger that is sure to be pulled, and lots of money dumped on the states as unfunded liabilities. They will water everything else they can, but in ways that allow them to resuscitate them.

Post 2

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 4:15pm

Yes - they ideologically are determined to get it passed, by hook or by crook, the latter being the most likely, so voted for the public option one... however, it if by good fortune NOT pass at this time, pushed into the next year, then have good doubts it'll ever be...

Post 3

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 5:10pm

Don't know that they can "hide" it as a trigger, at least not from each other -- no doubt some gullible constituents who might be fooled by that.

The mandates in some versions of the bill -- guaranteed issue, no pre-existing conditions, community rating -- are pretty much guaranteed to do the opposite of the bill ostensibly seeks to do -- those are almost certain to drive up costs and give people incentives to drop coverage (and thus spring any "trigger" provision.)

Post 4

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 7:51pm

Jim,

I think congress is long past any concern with really hiding triggers or with hiding the nature of any of the other massive acts of unconstitutional plunder from each other. And they know most of the voters aren't fooled. They have gone from political fig-leaves used for 'plausible' denial with the voters, to pretending to have fig-leaves by pretending that they believe they don't know that everyone knows that they are telling lies.

Congress has sold so much of its soul, so much of our treasure, so much of our future, so much power, that they are becoming irrelevant. They will soon be trying to sell from empty shelves to a market that already has all they can offer.

Glen Beck is right that the structure of government is shifting. The power has moved to the executive, the lobbyists, the union, and the regulatory agencies. When the old structures collapses in a major way, it will be the mother of all crisis and will give birth to the new structure and it won't be pretty.

Post 5

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 8:53pm

Birthing never is...

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 11:30pm

Steve -- hardly anyone is as smart as you are. In the profession you're in, it seems likely that most of your time is spent in the company of people who are of average or higher intelligence, rather than a representative cross-section of the populace.

A substantial minority of the voting citizenry believes these lies, despite them seeming to be transparently obvious falsehoods to the bright people who congregate here. I've seen that on the campaign trail a few years back, where a startling percentage of the electorate was voting for asinine reasons. And since elections are often decided by a couple of percentage points ...

Though, yes, you do have a point about politicians not being above brazen, blatant lies that much of their constituencies can see through.

Post 7

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 7:48am

Just a footnote, but I clicked this thread only because -- on the RoR home page -- I had read the introductory words to Jim's post 6:

Steve -- hardly anyone is as smart as you are.

And, intrigued, I clicked on Jim's post without paying attention to the thread in general. Now, knowing that Jim is not one to throw compliments around like cheap candy, imagine my horror when I scrolled up to Steve's post 1 (remember: without paying attention to the thread in general):

I voted for the bill with public option ...

Noooooo! Steve Wolfer is a godforsaken sellout! He's one who would vote for a health care bill with a public option! Aaaaaagh! The world is turning inside out on me right now!

Anyway, then I had more coffee and I looked around a little more, and things got more clear, and my intense, internal dismay soon subsided.

Ed
[and you have just been made a victim of my: "The world as I see it, with coffee and without" (subtitled: Thank god for South America)]

Post 8

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 10:13am

No sellout - recognition of what Congress will most likely do, not what Steve or I would do... take the time to READ first, then THINK, before engaging mouth, so to speak...

Post 9

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 11:11am

With or without coffee, I sometimes don't know how to take what I read in this or that post.

I didn't thank Jim for the kind words for two reasons - they seemed somewhat over the top, and I wasn't sure that he hadn't intended them sarcastically. (Was that a bit paranoid of me? :-)

And Ed, I do hope the coffee was enough to get you to remember that I would never, ever be in favor of any form of regulation on the health system... We are clear that I was just saying this is what our scurrilous politician are likely to do? Aren't we?

Post 10

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 8:46pm

Steve -- I didn't mean the words sarcastically at all -- pretty much everyone who is a regular here is bound to be much smarter than average -- dull-normal people don't spend copious amounts of time on an Objectivist website, much less make the thousands of perceptive comments needed to rack up as many Atlas points as you've accumulated.

But, if you're concerned about getting an excessively high image of yourself, or just feel uncomfortable about receiving compliments, I'm willing to go back and edit the post to remove the * offending * comment. ;)

I suppose a mea culpa is in order, that I've been sarcastic enough in the past that a genuine compliment is regarded with suspicion. I'll try to do better in the future -- or at least indicate sarcasm with an ending /sarcasm, to compensate for all the body language and facial expressions scrubbed out by text messages.

And a sanction to Ed for making me LOL with post #7.
(Edited by Jim Henshaw on 12/13, 8:51pm)

Post 11

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 8:47pm

Steve,

Don't worry. Because writing is a window into the soul, I know you as well or better than some of my distant (but "real-life") friends**. Even in a semi-stupor, a thought like that about you wouldn't last for long in my mind. It may have only been milliseconds where I became flooded with the shock and horror that you may have sold your soul to the dark side. Reflection and integration then rush in and I come to my senses.

I was really just sharing what I went through, mentally, in order to reach out to or share with (in a fellowship kind of way) folks who, like you, share my most important values. On that note, this place is a version of Galt's Gulch for me. My "Chicken Little" episode was a moment that can be described as simply as this: I had an experience and I just want to share it with others who I respect (plus, I thought it was funny).

Ed

**If you showed me someone's words about something important, and I was supposed to identify the person based on what they had to say and based on the manner in which they said it, then I would feel more sure that I could identify you (by your words and manner) than many, if not all, of my distant friends.

In fact, there are only a few "concrete" people in my life, wherein I would be more confident in being able to identify the person (based on what they have to say about something important) than I would be in being able to identify you. And this is true of most everyone on this forum.

This is something that this forum gives me -- a connection with others on a deep and meaningful level (even if I don't actually hang out with them).

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/13, 9:08pm)

Post 12

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 9:34pm

Jim, Ed, thank you both the kind words. They are appreciated.

Steve

Post 13

Monday, December 14, 2009 - 7:36am