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Post 0

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 4:12amSanction this postReply
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No one has a 'right' to happiness - they have a right 'to seek' happiness...

Post 1

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 4:35amSanction this postReply
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I voted "no" but what I mean by that is what Robert said above. Sanction!

Post 2

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 5:14amSanction this postReply
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I'm the third "no" vote -- and for the same reason.

Ed


Post 3

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 7:01amSanction this postReply
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[Post deleted to withdraw from time-wasting empty dialogue]

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 11/14, 2:44am)


Post 4

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 8:25amSanction this postReply
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LOL!

Methinks the Objectionist doth protest too much.

By that "reasoning" no one has a "right to life" either, just a right to try to live.

Within an Objectivist context "right" never means "right to be provided with," so the objection is a bit strange — and the desire to object in this context is a bit revealing.



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Post 5

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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My happiness is internal - I don't see it as something I pursue in the outside world. I pursue other things in the outside world, and the pursuit effects my happiness, but the happiness is an internal experience. I already have happiness, or its potential. I already posses it, and therefore the issue would be do I have a right to keep it? In that case, just like Ted said, the phrasing would be like we use for life. Do I have a right to my life?

The poll question is about a relationship between either a rational expectation or a moral right to happiness (it could be interpreted either way) and the acceptance of rational egoism.

If the question was intended to be about a moral right - that already belongs to the person without regard to their position on rational egoism. It is theirs because they are human and haven't abrogated their rights by violating the rights of another.

If the questions is about rational expectation, it is still not clear if we are talking about justice ("Is it just and proper for someone who does not accept rational egoism to be happy?") or are we talking about psychology ("Is it true that a person who does not accept rational egoism can not be happy?")

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 11/13, 3:41pm)


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Post 6

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Hmm. Does the question imply, by default, that individuals who *accept* rational egoism have a right to happiness? Or, does the question imply that a person's "right to happiness" would depend on whether he or she accept certain ideas?

Post 7

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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This poll is guilty of the fallacy called: complex question (see below for details).

It is only by accepting “man’s life” as one’s primary and by pursuing the rational values it requires that one can achieve happiness—not by taking “happiness” as some undefined, irreducible primary and then attempting to live by its guidance. If you achieve that which is the good by a rational standard of value, it will necessarily make you happy; but that which makes you happy, by some undefined emotional standard, is not necessarily the good.
“The Objectivist Ethics,” VOS, 29

Ed


Post 8

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
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[Post deleted to withdraw from time-wasting empty dialogue]

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 11/14, 2:45am)


Post 9

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 3:32pmSanction this postReply
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LOL!

This backwardsoverbending is hilarious.

Murderers aren't people who "do not accept the moral right of others to life." Murderers are people who kill people (without just cause).

Ed, maybe you should drop the objections, admit you fell for Robert's bizarre conflation of ethics and politics because you hadn't yet had your coffee, and just answer the question.

Do people who don't accept rational egoism have the right to be happy?


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Post 10

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 5:38amSanction this postReply
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I have the right to seek happiness and I have the right to keep the happiness I've attained. Rational egoism is the only true and consistent way to do this but people who do not consiously practice egoism still can achieve some happiness. They have a right to whatever they have achieved. I know family members and work peers that would never consciously accept rational egoism due to a their poor philosophy but practice it nonetheless and try to rationalize the differences. Dr. Laura can be happy to the degree that she practices rational egoism without rationalises it. The question should have been Can individuals be happy if they don't practice rational egoism? And the answer is no, not to the extent that they don't practice it and yes to the extent that they do. But in the long run only the consistent action will win.

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Post 11

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 5:39amSanction this postReply
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I voted yes.

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Post 12

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 5:05pmSanction this postReply
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Ted (and George),

There is a slippery slope with the phrase "the right to happiness." Because of that, one really shouldn't use that phrase. It's not a matter of pretentious, pedantic quibbling. It is an important thing -- and perhaps the most misunderstood thing in the world -- and folks should choose words carefully. Here's more (more for the 3rd-party viewers):

Observe, in this context, the intellectual precision of the Founding Fathers: they spoke of the right to the pursuit of happiness—not of the right to happiness.
“Man’s Rights,” VOS, 97

Ed

p.s. And, besides being so often misunderstood, it is possibly the most important thing in the world as well.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 11/13, 5:10pm)


Post 13

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
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Hmm...

.....that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

If it's "precision" the declaration signers used writing "the pursuit of" when specifying negative rights, do you mean to say they had a different meaning in regard to life?

I think the wording is this way for dramatic effect.


Post 14

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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excuses, excuses...

Post 15

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 9:17pmSanction this postReply
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Objectivism recognizes a distinction between ethics and politics, between a moral right and a political right. Anarchists conflate the political and the moral, and hence they fail to fully understand either science.

Observe, in this context, one can hardly take the question of whether an individual who espouses ethical egoism is entitled to his happiness as a legal or political issue, unless you yourself are a full blown statist-collectivist, or worse, an anarchist who doesn't know the difference. The question here is interpretable only as a moral (or perhaps psychological) but in any case a radically personal question.

Of course, if one is a concrete-bound, one can be confused by the fact that the Declaration of Independence uses the key words "rights" and "happiness." But that is a political document, not an ethical or a psychological one. Rand's observation on the pursuit of happiness was political. The answer requires using thought in principles, not a real or imagined google search.

It is a simple matter to recognize this mistake, if not such any easy matter to admit having made it. (Never to admit having made a mistake is the central principle, right and virtue of Objectionism.) If Ed and Luke didn't, on some level, recognize their mistakes, neither would have bothered with the alternate theories they came up with in posts 7, 8 and 12. I know that both these people understand the difference between politics and ethics, and that the word right can be used with a different meaning according to context. I am quite sure that both are capable of answering, if not willing to answer this very simple question:

Does a person who does not espouse rational egoism still have the right to be happy?


(Edited by Ted Keer on 11/13, 10:27pm)


Post 16

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 10:31pmSanction this postReply
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By the way, Ed, you are entirely wrong about the issue of complex question. Complex question requires the use of an improper non-restrictive clause. The use here is a (proper) restrictive clause.

You also should have, but didn't, provide a link for the fallacy.

Here is a link to an explanation of the difference between the two types of clause.

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Post 17

Friday, November 13, 2009 - 10:51pmSanction this postReply
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Trying to clarify moral, political and legal rights

My understanding has always been that once "rights" has been uttered, a loosely political context is invoked.

Working backwards, let me make sure I understand this. (All definitions are my improvisations unless otherwise stated)

Legal right: a sanctioned behavior granted by contract or government IN FACT, not in principle. Properly legal rights are within the sphere of political.

Political right: a social sanction protected by government. Properly, political rights are within the sphere of moral rights.

Moral right: social sanction respected by other moral people but irrelevant to government? Examples please.

Right: Social sanction derived from a moral premise.

AR:
"A “right” is a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man's freedom of action in a social context."

importanceofphilosophy.com:
Recognition of that which is necessary for a rational being to live in a society.

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Post 18

Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
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Most seem to be making an interesting error on the issue of moral rights and political rights... the Declaration is a MORAL document, not, as many presume, a political one - it is the Constitution which defines the political rights...

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Post 19

Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 1:49amSanction this postReply
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Gotta vote yes might be something to learn. Who defines rational. Suppose some lady says she would not date you if you were the last man on earth. What do you say? Thanks for killing them all.


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