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Post 20

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 6:43pmSanction this postReply
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About 1987 or '88 there was a lecture by Binswanger on free will at the U of Penn. I think it was the summer after my freshman year in college, I had read all that was published til then and considered myself a full fledged Objectivist. Free will was one of the topics I was most interested in. Before going to the lecture I went out and bought a blank notebook in case there was any information about books or coming events or especially any interesting formulations I wanted verbatim. Needless to say, by the end of his speech, which was basically a rehash of the axiomatic argument, he had said nothing new and the notebook was as brand new. He started taking questions. A woman asked something to which he responded that even to ask the question showed she had a concrete bound mentality, "just like" he said, "someone who would bring a notebook to a philosophical lecture as if he were recording a list of unintegrated facts." There were about 80 people in the room. I was the only one with a notebook on his lap. He was looking straight at me as he spoke. I wanted to wave the book and say that since he hadn't said anything interesting enough to write down verbatim it was still blank. I held my tongue.

Afterwards there was an informal session at an on-campus bar. There he pretty much just cracked insults. My brother-in-law asked him a question about how children could be held responsible for choosing to focus or not to focus before they were aware that there was a moral issue involved. Binswanger answered that the fact that my brother-in-law asked the question showed that he would not understand the answer.

I chose not to have any contact with "Objectivists" from then until I found Kirez Korgan's Cornell discussion list to which you and I subscribed in the latter half of the nineties.

Post 21

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 9:22pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Please forgive me for a continued interrogation which may seem like a childish, schoolground contest (to the envious, and the yada yada yada) but I feel that I should follow up and ask you:

Don't you think that the RoR participants in this thread are much more moral than is Harry B.?

Don't you think that, in general, the people here are way more concerned with benevolence (as they should be)?

Doesn't that outweigh the really rude and crude behavior of just a few talking heads of Objectivism?

The reason I ask is because it seems like you are trying to dodge an unstated question of mine -- regarding so many good people here who "happen" to be Objectivists (or who are very, very close to being Objectivists). It's as if you don't want to admit the tremendous psychological visibility and respectful concern for ideas that this forum affords.

It's as if you'd rather hold a terrible grudge -- or something very much like one -- linked to a few key folks in your past.

I could be way off. I could be offending you right now. Before you respond, I want you to know that I am impressed with your character. You are one of the most civil folks I've ever disagreed with, and that is the true test -- when you disagree with another without unnecessarily disrespecting them.

Ed


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Post 22

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 10:10pmSanction this postReply
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I don't really consider that I know people just because I have corresponded with them on line, and my judgment was not based upon my opinion of people I interact with on line. I don't really see any way to make that sort of judgment. Perhaps I could say that people here are on average much better than people on wikipedia, but that isn't saying very much, is it?

No, I don't have any sort of grudge toward those people. I have probably thought about that English teacher three times in the last ten years. Any time I see Liza Minelli or Virginia Hussey i might think of her, since we watched Cabaret and Romeo and Juliet in her class. Never could figure out why she liked or had us watch Cabaret. And I have never had a desire to hurt or badmouth those people. You can take it as a sign of my generosity in answering direct questions that I bothered to give the detail I did.

Maybe the other "evil" voters could speak up?

Post 23

Monday, August 31, 2009 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Thanks for relating your encounter with Mr. B. (in Post #20) Unbelievable! You wrote,
Before going to the lecture I went out and bought a blank notebook in case there was any information about books or coming events or especially any interesting formulations I wanted verbatim. Needless to say, by the end of his speech, which was basically a rehash of the axiomatic argument, he had said nothing new and the notebook was as brand new. He started taking questions. A woman asked something to which he responded that even to ask the question showed she had a concrete bound mentality, "just like" he said, "someone who would bring a notebook to a philosophical lecture as if he were recording a list of unintegrated facts."
What a jerk! And what he said makes no sense anyway. You take notes, so you can remember key points in order better to integrate what is being said. Binswanger has a degree in philosophy. Did he take no notes during class?

When I attended Branden's and Peikoff's lectures, everyone had notebooks and took voluminous and detailed notes. I filled entire books with lecture notes and so did many of the other people. There was, after all, no written record of the lectures, so the only way you could have the material available for further study was to record what was being said. You don't want to rely on your memory, especially if the material is abstract and philosophical and you're hearing it for the first time. In fact, when I took Peikoff's 10-lecture course on Objectivist epistemology (back in 1965), I probably took 50 pages of notes, and it's a good thing I did, because I wouldn't have remembered half of what I heard if I didn't.
There were about 80 people in the room. I was the only one with a notebook on his lap. He was looking straight at me as he spoke. I wanted to wave the book and say that since he hadn't said anything interesting enough to write down verbatim it was still blank.
You should have. He deserved it. Of course, he would have had you ejected from the lecture! I can't believe that you were the only one with a notebook. Did all of these other people have perfect recall or were they, like the parishioners at a Sunday congregation, having their hearts warmed by the Objectivist gospel?! How many people take notes in Church? None, because their goal is not critical understanding, but unexamined belief.
Afterwards there was an informal session at an on-campus bar. There he pretty much just cracked insults. My brother-in-law asked him a question about how children could be held responsible for choosing to focus or not to focus before they were aware that there was a moral issue involved. Binswanger answered that the fact that my brother-in-law asked the question showed that he would not understand the answer.
Amazing! -- especially in response to a very reasonable question! This is reminiscent of a statement by Aquinas, which Objectivists are fond of citing for its absurdity: "To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who don't, none is possible."
I chose not to have any contact with "Objectivists" from then until I found Kirez Korgan's Cornell discussion list to which you and I subscribed in the latter half of the nineties.
I'm not surprised! With this kind of antagonism to honest inquiry, Binswanger is turning off the really thoughtful people in favor those who accept the philosophy on faith -- and this from a guy who claims to value integration!

- Bill

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Post 24

Monday, August 31, 2009 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
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I think the Great Books "Read and Discuss, Interpret and Evaluate" format makes for a far less intimidating environment for learning Objectivism than does the "Binswanker" method (to use Lindsay Perigo's slang for Harry). Having a group of "equals" (from an authority standpoint) conducting a civil discussion around a table means no one has the privilege to treat others in that harsh way. A good discussion moderator is key to making this happen.

Post 25

Monday, August 31, 2009 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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I am actually sympathetic to the no note taking policy.

In my ninth grade geology class, we had a point system for our grades. You could earn so many points from exams, from assignments, and from keeping a detailed notebook that conformed in style to the teacher's explicit outline. The teacher (a favorite of mine for his enthusiasm, Louis Detofsky) told us that his tests were hard and people usually failed them, but that if you kept a notebook you would get a passing if not a high grade, and warned us that while taking notes wasn't mandatory, no one had done well in his class without doing so. I refused from day one to take notes, and must have earned at least a 93% since I got A's all four marking periods.

I only take notes for dates, verbatim quotes, and hard to remember new words and ideas. Like I said, B. didn't really address anything I hadn't already heard. I had written a paper on the axiomatic nature of free will in my topics in metaphysics calls.

Teacher: There is no such thing as free will.
Student: Are you saying that because you believe it and are choosing to tell the truth, or were you compelled to say it no matter what?

I am sure I was the only one with a notebook, although others may have had tape recorders.

I didn't make a fuss, since I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, and like I said I generally oppose note taking, at least for myself. It was after the remark to my brother-in-law that I decided to leave. I suppose I could have shouted at him over the din in the bar, but I didn't. My brother-in-law says he wasn't as upset at Binswanger's remark to him as I was, but I think I have higher expectations.

Post 26

Monday, August 31, 2009 - 1:53pmSanction this postReply
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I'm reminded of an expression (anonymous, unless anyone knows the source, and likely this is misquoted to boot)

Be careful of your thoughts, for your thoughts become words. Be careful of your words, because your words become attitudes. Be cautions of your attitudes, because your attitudes become actions. Be cautions of your actions, because your actions become values. Be cautious of your values, because your values become your character.

I do think that character is in part made up by the values we choose, and in part made up by our own personal struggle to understand how we might best succeed interacting with the world. People tend to behave in accordance to what has seemed to work for them, and most people thus develop their own personal defense mechanisms to survive - which become in integral part of their character. Cold and impersonal, warm and accepting, curt and disapproving, passive, aggressive, indifferent - these are all strategies that have somehow seemed to work to the people who show these affectations. And, usually - regardless of whether better ways may have been available - their personal affectation is what has succeeded for them.

jt



(Edited by Jay Abbott on 8/31, 2:00pm)


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Post 27

Thursday, September 3, 2009 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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I have been able to interact with people in forums and found that you can very much make character judgements based on such an interaction.  It is by no means impossible and I have a few people I know, and even trust, whom I have never met.

Post 28

Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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In agreement with Kurt ...

A popular, tribalist, "black leader" (I think it was Al Sharpton) gave the following analogy on a TV show (I think it was The Colbert Report):

He said to his daughter that if she is lost or stranded and 2 cars pulled up to take her to safety -- one car driven by a complete stranger and one car driven by Dick Cheney -- that she should get into the car with the complete stranger.

Sharpton, who may have never met Cheney, seemed to know that he'd never like him. Unless he can point to something Cheney did or said and show how that makes him a bad person, then this story is one of prejudice. On that note, it's irrational or illegitimate. However, there is a reverse to this story, where someone you've never met can become preferable than a stranger -- because trust is built by things which can be written about. Kurt is right on the money.

If I were stranded on a desert highway and I had the choice to get into a car with a stranger or to get into the car with Kurt (or the others recently posting in this thread: Bill, or Luke, or Jay, or Ted, etc) -- then I'd choose to get into the car with those people whom I know to love ideas, and who have thought about being or becoming moral persons. It wouldn't require deliberation (unless the stranger is Angelina Jolie or Jessica Alba).

:-)

I think Rand once said (in her "Philosophy: Who Needs It?" speech) that if you were interviewing folks to rent an apartment to -- then the best information you could have about them would be not about their history, but about their "philosophy." Sometimes it's better to know the particulars of how someone thinks, than it is to know the particulars of what someone has done. There are a lot of evil people who've done good things (actually, all evil people perform good acts, for "pretense"). And there are a lot of good people who've done bad things.

Ed
[has, without apprehension, actually ridden in a car with Kurt (in Florida); and actually survived the ordeal unscathed]

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 9/05, 10:52am)


Post 29

Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 10:59amSanction this postReply
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(unless the stranger is Angelina Jolie or Jessica Alba).
..............

Then she wouldn't be a stranger, huh...;-)

Post 30

Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 1:37pmSanction this postReply
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I wonder what the results would be if you conducted a similar poll to this about liberals on Huffington Post?

They, too, would think they have better character than the general population. Of course, they tend to have a vastly different conception of what constitutes good character.



Post 31

Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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The higher your self-esteem, the more you are likely to act with integrity.

Not necessarily. A lot of sociopaths have very high, and unwarranted, self-esteem. Conversely, some people with very low self-esteem act with integrity. People's perception of their self-worth isn't always accurate, or can be based on different measures of character than an Objectivist would use.

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Post 32

Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

You are working with an entirely different and erroneous definition of self-esteem.

You said, "People's perception of their self-worth isn't always accurate, or can be based on different measures of character than an Objectivist would use."

The mistake in that is in equating people's perception (which technically should be 'concept') of their self-worth, with their EXPERIENCE of their self-esteem.

People, like sociopaths, can have an unwarrantedly high conceptual estimate of their worth and at the same time experience very low self-esteem. To better understand this, imagine a person who is experiencing guilt and shame but convinces himself that he is really a very worthy person. The guilt and shame, if they are free-floating or generalized feelings (not attached to a specific event) are symptoms of low self-esteem. Attempting to convince himself that he is worthy is a defense (rationalizing, evading, denying) against the feelings from low self-esteem.

You said that some people with low self-esteem act with integrity. That's true. And every act that is born of integrity will tend to increase their self-esteem. And the higher a person's self-esteem, the easier it is to live with integrity. But integrity isn't the only source of self-esteem. If they have low self-esteem they are failing to live consciously, or live with self-responsibility, or be properly assertive, or self-accepting, etc.

It is also a little more complicated, because there are different motives and ways of 'acting with integrity' - a man who has a hard time being assertive may act in a way that is consonant with his integrity yet his motive was to avoid conflict - had the situation been a little more scary, he might have sacrificed some integrity to avoid the conflict. All of these choices involve costs and the costs will determine the degree of effect on self-esteem.

Take a look at this article by Branden for a better idea of what is and what isn't self-esteem.

Post 33

Saturday, September 5, 2009 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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(unless the stranger is Angelina Jolie or Jessica Alba).
..............

Then she wouldn't be a stranger, huh...;-)
Well, I have a sneaking suspicion that these gals might be stranger (more strange) than a stranger ... if you know what I mean.

There's something about celebrities, especially the especially glamorous ones, which makes it statistically likely that they are "off of their rocker." In my past, I've called it "pretty girl syndrome" -- where the most physically-captivating women in my life have also happened to have been tremendous head-cases. You wouldn't believe some of the stories. Conversely, the less physically attractive women in my life have, statistically, had more character. I have to admit that it would be hard to build good character when half of the human population wanted to mate with you. Not impossible, but more difficult than average.

Ed


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Post 34

Sunday, September 6, 2009 - 3:03pmSanction this postReply
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> Conversely, the less physically attractive women in my life have, statistically, had more character.

My experience has been rather different. I've known or spent time with or dated some beautiful women who were the nicest and best people I've known. And there has been somewhat more of a tendency, statistically, for character and beauty to go together in my experience.

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Post 35

Sunday, September 6, 2009 - 3:11pmSanction this postReply
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> "just like" he said, "someone who would bring a notebook to a philosophical lecture as if he were recording a list of unintegrated facts."

Well then, doesn't that mean his estimate of his own lecture was as a list of unintegrated facts that there would be no reason to write down and retain?

Post 36

Sunday, September 6, 2009 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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At least that wasn't the case with NBI lectures of my experience... have notes on ancient, medieval, modern, and contemporary philosophy, efficient thinking, economics of free society, and basic principles of objectivist psychology, and they have served me well over the years... [and yes, there were many others scribbling away on notes as well]


And, too, my experiences with women have had the good looking ones as nice as well - more congenial than the plains on the whole...
(Edited by robert malcom on 9/06, 4:48pm)


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Post 37

Sunday, September 6, 2009 - 4:52pmSanction this postReply
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If there is no text, of course one takes notes.

Now that is no longer necessary

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