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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
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Charles Darwin's work was genius, but scientific discovery is replicable. Indeed, Alfred Russel Wallace made the same discovery.

Abraham Lincoln's role in American and hence subsequent world history was unique. He did the right thing over and over and over, from running and winning as an aboltionist, to choosing The Republic above his own platform, and by treating the South honorably with the North's victory. History is contingent and irreplicable. I would in no way downplay Darwin, but Lincoln has him beat as the indispensable man.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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My view of Lincoln changed about a year ago after reading Thomas J. DiLorenzo's The Real Lincoln.  It's a very harsh, fact filled critique of someone who I was taught to admire since grade school.  While reading the book I actually became angry with myself for esteeming this historical figure so high and for so long without sufficient reason, or for reasons that turned out to be false.  Perhaps the real truth about the man lies somewhere in between, but the experience has made me a more vigilant reader.  Darwin gets my vote unless there's a The Real Darwin out there too which I haven't heard about. 

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Post 2

Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 10:26pmSanction this postReply
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Greatest man? Most indispensable? I don't know that those are interchangeable.

I like the statement, "History is contingent and irreplicable." But it isn't such a great chasm, this difference between your portraits of a replicable science and that irreplicable history. The force of ideas march through the actions of one man or another. If it hadn't been Lincoln, and if it hadn't been the civil war, slavery would have been overthrown - man's rights were given too strong a start by Jefferson and friends to have been otherwise. And Lincoln had another side, the beginnings of the strong federal government, the end of the strong checks and balances that states rights held. But maybe the force of the ideas of collectivism would have shown themselves elsewhere as well, since that struggle is still going on.

There must be a chain of reasoning and a steadiness of character to achieve what Darwin did - that another did the same thing shouldn't diminish either's accomplishment. If I were to measure the breadth of intellectual achievement, Lincoln isn't even a contender. What Darwin did for the sciences exceeds what Lincoln did for politics- at least that's my reaction. If it were this kind of comparison I'd have chosen Jefferson rather than Lincoln (if it the DOB weren't an issue.) I measure greatness more by the depth of abstraction and breadth of integration. But really there is still too much apples and oranges here.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 5:09amSanction this postReply
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Darwin hands down. I won't argue that Lincoln wasn't a good pres, but there's barely a cause for comparison. Even setting aside all of the consequences that happened later from Lincoln's decisions, I can't see it. A politician that reacts fairly well to situations he didn't instigate or desire is nothing compared to an intellectual giant that expands our scientific horizons as much as Darwin did.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 8:29amSanction this postReply
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A politician who reacts fairly well to situations he didn't instigate? What, like Bush? You have to be kidding.

Yeah, Lincoln was famously elected as the good looking (not) and controversy-averse (not) candidate of a party that had long held power (not). He promised to be a uniter, not a divider (not). When the forces of fundamentalist abolitionism struck unexpectedly, (?!) dividing the country into two warring factions, and killing more Americans than in all other wars combined, he reacted fairly well.

Darwin was a great scientist with a great idea. There were other great scientists. Wallace discovered natural selection, and so would have others had Wallace not done so.

Lincoln was a great man. He acted and instituted moral change. Who besides him would have ended slavery and preserved the union when he did? As for the beginnings of a strong federal government, these were unfortunate consequences of the war, not deliberate policies pursued by Lincoln.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 10:32amSanction this postReply
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I just not ready to believe that Lincoln wasn't active in changing the structure of government to federalism. One would have to see him as ignorant of that change or that he chose to ignore it - letting this effect of war remain in place. It seems more likely that he favored the stronger federal government. He could have done even more to heal the country, and to protect liberty, if after the war he had explicitly restored to the states all of the powers they had before the war, minus only slavery of course.

There is no way to know what would have happened if Lincoln hadn't been there. We don't know how much longer slavery would have lasted, or if the war to remove it would have been better or worse. Or if slavery would have continued in the Confederacy for a period of time and then been outlawed without a war... it is all speculation and has no more impact on this comparison than science fiction. Great men arise into view at times like this and the force of their actions obscure what might have happened.

And I think that you phrase Darwin's achievement in terms to suit your argument - using wording that makes his accomplishment smaller than it was. And like I said, the fact that Wallace had a near identical ideas takes nothing away from Darwin.

It is a strange comparsion - apples and oranges - and in my preferences, I'll always go for the man who lifted such broad areas of human knowledge over a politician who was the first to cement federalism firmly in place. (Yes, I'm playing cheap word tricks to diminish Lincoln's stand against slavery. So, I'm competitive. Sue me :-)

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
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First, I have a BA in biology, it is my core intellectual interest besides linguistics, both of which interest me because they exhibit evolution. So I have no lack of appreciation for or understanding of Darwin, nor do I see how you can say I have downplayed his accomplishment to suit my needs. The fact is that we do know that Wallace had already independently discovered natural selection, although that is not widely recognized.

Second, there were calls for secession from both the North and the South prior to Lincoln's election. He preserved the Union and ended slavery, and there is no guarantee that both these ends could have been achieved nor is there any other statesman of the era to whom one could point as a possible equal to Lincoln.

Both were great men. Comparing them is apples and oranges, statesmen and scientists. But I value long term, successful, principled moral action over scientific priority in judging the greatness of a man. I would rather have Lincoln than Darwin as the guardian of my children.

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Post 7

Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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I'm really tired so this will be brief.
The president is not a spectator in "dividing the country into two warring factions" nor in "killing more Americans than in all other wars combined". Americans killed via tactics the president authorized. I'm not seeing how you can demonize Bush for wiretaps and all of his abuses but somehow a past president gets a blank check regarding authorizing a total war scorched earth policy against his own people. When he was elected he was vocal about stopping the expansion of slavery, not abolishing it. He had a policy of appeasement and containment regarding the slave states until secession, and the fact that the emancipation proclamation came late in the game, and only freed slaves in confederate territory, not his own, seems to indicate that his motives were a little less angelic than commonly taught. Not to mention the drastic usurpation of power by the federal gov't during the period. As Steve mentioned, power they mysteriously forgot to give back once the emergency was over. So we have.
-Greatly increased tariffs (bye bye free trade)
-Gov't interference in transportation (trans-continental railroad)
-National Banking Act
-The creation of currency by the federal gov't
-The beginning of income tax
-Widespread violent subjugation of the population with the intention of removing the states right to remove themselves from the union. After they were crushed they were subject to all of the above legislation that was passed while they were absent. (a little taxation without representation never hurt anybody.)

I absolutely believe that ending slavery was the right thing to do. It was already on the way out when secession began. The abolitionists deserve the credit for that, and they weren't all up north. Lincoln did his best and was a great man, but he wasn't an abolitionist, and ending slavery wasn't his goal. Keeping the union together through any means necessary was. And the fact remains that they didn't give the power back once the wrong was righted. The statement that Darwin's contribution is replicable is beside the point. Everything Lincoln did was replicable as well. If you think in the broadest sense, using racism to grab and hold power has been replicated by American politicians ever since.

That weighed against a scientist who risked his life and added enormous contributions to modern thought. I'll still go with Darwin.



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Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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"Everything Lincoln did was replicable as well. If you think in the broadest sense, using racism to grab and hold power has been replicated by American politicians ever since."


Okay.



Post 9

Monday, February 23, 2009 - 9:15pmSanction this postReply
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Well if you want to argue any scientific discovery is replicable, so then must every political action be replicable. More generally, any action for that matter, such as discovering Objectivism. But we give the credit to the individual who did it first or did it best. If it wasn't Lincoln in 1862 who freed the slaves, it could have been someone else decades later that did it. There's also no question the only thing that saves the wealth of our nation today is technological innovation. No President even comes close to touching the amount of good accomplished from that. In fact the only reason why the degrees of Socialism we've experienced this past century hasn't completely stagnated mankind is because technological growth has been able to outpace the growth in government regulation. We owe our cushy comfortable lives to that lead in the race between technology and government coercion. And with environmentalism on the cusp of controlling our lives to levels never experienced before, the socialists may have found a way to completely stagnate technology.

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Post 10

Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 11:36pmSanction this postReply
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Sola Fide

John, by replicable I mean that scientific discovery can be made at any time in history (once the precursory knowledge exists) while actual human history is radically non-repeatable. We cannot refight the civil war, bring back the dead, live all over again. I am not talking about the discovery of political principles - Lincoln didn't do that, he acted to direct history on a grand scale. Nor am I saying that Darwin's intellectual accomplishment wasn't amazing, or that he did not benefit mankind greatly with his conceptual inductions.

But the question was who was the greater man, not the greater intellectual or thinker.

Lincoln had to make and carry through with hundreds of individual unpopular decisions, when most opposed and challenged his every action. Some Objectivists cripe that the civil war lead to expanded Federal power but this was not in any way Lincoln's intent. He ran on an abolitionist plank, not a statist plank. He justified abolitionism based on the sanctity of individual human rights, not based on the idea that by liberating the slaves he would have a large voting block willing to vote for his new spending plans. The fact that Federal powers increased as an after effect of the civil war was due to the problems inherent in the system - and remember Lincoln opposed a harsh program of Federal retribution against the states, and it was congress that impeached Johnson for not putting through all the Federal legislation that the North wanted after the war was over. And yes, he suspended habeas corpus. Frankly, so what? It was done constitutionally. I would be much more impressed with that charge if someone could provide a list of political opponents who were jailed and despoiled of their property. The elections were held and held fare and square, and Lincoln could very well have lost, unlike today where no Democrat can ever lose a close election.

Lincoln was a great man precisely because he acted. Some Objectivists brag about how there simply "holding" a moral code amounts to their actual virtue:

For some, ethics is a thing, a codified body of thought, that resides outside. The awareness of it is something that is used as a tool to achieve a better life. On the other hand, there are those of us, myself included, that see our ethics as an integral part of ourselves. It is an element of our identity. It is not a tool to be wielded as needed, but an omnipresent aspect of our being. For those who treat it in this manner, we neither serve, nor are served by our ethics. It just is an existential aspect of the totality that makes us who we are. That's not to say that it is not something that can be examined and changed over the course of time, but I believe that this is still a significant distinction that goes a long way to understanding why there is such a wide variance in attitudes towards the various issues that are raised in these ethical discussions.

Assuming I understand what's being said, I think that's some of the most specious and, yes, most vicious claptrap I have ever heard. Virtue and greatness consist of virtue and greatness in the world, in action, in the concrete, not just in the imagination. The above doctrine, that belief constitutes virtue, is an explicit doctrine of Martin Luther's, one he took from Saint Paul. It's called Sola Fide - justification through faith alone, regardless of actions.

I have no stock in downplaying Darwin's achievement. But he did not have to fight a war against creationists and skeptics and statists to have his ideas accepted. Nor can I say that Lincoln was a happy man in his personal life. But he had a set of principles which he held to and which he acted upon in the world, over and over, against incredible obstacles, and to great effect. In my book that constitutes greatness as a man.

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 - 12:28amSanction this postReply
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Ted:

John, by replicable I mean that scientific discovery can be made at any time in history (once the precursory knowledge exists) while actual human history is radically non-repeatable. We cannot refight the civil war


I stopped reading after this line. Wars have been refought all the time. Did you miss that bit of 20th century Europe where two world wars were fought? Or what about two Gulf Wars? Pfftt.....anyways point being take Lincoln's accomplishment of the emancipation proclamation. Suppose this didn't happen, would you suggest then that slavery would exist in the South in perpetuity? Not bloody likely.

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 - 5:48amSanction this postReply
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Just a footnote to all of this and I found it all worth reading.  Thanks to everyone for thinking and writing.

Darwin got the idea of "survival of the fittest" from Herbert Spencer.  Spencer was perhaps the leading "biologist" of his day, if by biologist we mean someone who understands the social world through "biologism."

... just a footnote...

 We owe our cushy comfortable lives to that lead in the race between technology and government coercion. -- John Armaos.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 3/01, 5:56am)


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Friday, March 6, 2009 - 7:49pmSanction this postReply
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Abraham Lincoln's role in American and hence subsequent world history was unique. He did the right thing over and over and over

Which "right thing" are you talking about? The abrogation of civil rights? The conscripting of soldiers (aka "slavery")? Or the unforgivable breach that empowered the federal government to the virtually unlimited infringement of our rights we suffer today, taking away the right of each state to secede from the union, or to threaten to secede, if it felt the federal government was violating the constitution.

Darwin wins hands down, from my POV. Not even close.

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Friday, March 6, 2009 - 10:20pmSanction this postReply
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Nor can I say that Lincoln was a happy man in his personal life. But he had a set of principles which he held to and which he acted upon in the world, over and over, against incredible obstacles, and to great effect. In my book that constitutes greatness as a man.

Many statists and thugs and dictatorial mass murderers fit this description. This description arguably applies to Ellsworth Toohey in The Fountainhead.

It's important WHICH principles you hold, not just your steadfastness in implementing them. To achieve greatness as a person, one's actions must be based on a foundation of a great and moral philosophy.

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Saturday, March 7, 2009 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
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Jim would you say the founding fathers did the right thing?

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 - 8:25pmSanction this postReply
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John -- not on slavery. And some of the fuzziness in the Constitution has come back and bit us on the arse, though in fairness I don't think they anticipated how just how vigorously people would seek to trash that document while pretending to uphold it. And even the slavery thing was probably not politically doable at the time.

But all in all, they did an inspired job.

What do you think of them?

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Sunday, March 8, 2009 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
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Well I'm just trying to figure out how you pick and choose qualities and flaws from past historical figures before you consider them doing the right thing or not? I mean clearly the founding fathers did a lot of right things, but they also did bad things. So why do they inspire you despite people like Jefferson and Washington owning slaves? Or John Adams passing the Alien and Sedition act? Washington also took in some conscripted soldiers from several states during the Revolution. I think in their case the good outweighs the bad. I know you've brought up your beef with Lincoln over the secession thing and I still don't understand the argument considering many posters here have pointed out secession is not intrinsically moral. It depends for what reason a state wants to secede from the Union, and if it is for the purposes of perpetuating slavery, I can't understand why you would defend the South's right to secede for that reason? You said you don't think slavery is ok, so why morally sanction a state for wanting to secede to keep their slaves? That makes no sense to me.




(Edited by John Armaos on 3/08, 8:55pm)


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Monday, March 9, 2009 - 1:37amSanction this postReply
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I think the concept discussed previously doesn't involve that secession is intrinsically moral, but that the freedom of secession was linked with many of the things that were RIGHT about the early country. I don't morally sanction a state's support of slavery of any kind. I also can't morally sanction a state that executes the most vicious violence possible at the time against its own citizens. Isn't that how the erosion of rights begins? With thinking like "We have to take their freedom to be wrong from them, because the are so wrong on this issue." The south WAS wrong on the slavery issue. The south DID NOT have the moral right to slavery in any fashion. The south DID have the right to leave an organization that it deemed it was no longer compatible with. And like it or not, slavery wasn't the prime issue, it was the most emotional and certainly the most clearly moral issue. (and the most prone to abuse for political gain.) The emancipation proclamation did not start the civil war. The emancipation proclamation was used as a tactic within the greater conflict, and DID NOT free slaves in American territory in a blanket fashion.
(Edited by Ryan Keith Roper on 3/09, 1:43am)


Post 19

Monday, March 9, 2009 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan:

The south WAS wrong on the slavery issue. The south DID NOT have the moral right to slavery in any fashion. The south DID have the right to leave an organization that it deemed it was no longer compatible with.


Why? To have the right to secede implies one values the right to sovereignty. But if a government does not respect the right to individual sovereignty, as the South clearly did not by owning slaves, than it does not deserve the respect of having governmental sovereignty. Basically what your argument implies Ryan is that secession for secession's sake is moral, and not the reasons or the context of why someone ought to be able to secede. This is closely related to anarchist arguments because it implies even for the purposes of initiating force against another, you should still have the right to be free from government intervention. If secession for secession's sake is moral, why not have a state of child molesters decide to secede from the union because it doesn't want to outlaw child molestation?

And like it or not, slavery wasn't the prime issue, it was the most emotional and certainly the most clearly moral issue.


This is prima facie unbelievable. The clear delineation between Southern and Northern states was slavery. All of the Northern states were free states, all of the Southern states were slave states. All of their conflicts surrounded that one issue.

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