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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
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ATTENTION MODERATOR

Perhaps we could let polls run a standard week before posting a new one? Some polls sit for weeks, while others with lively side-discussions are displaced almost immediately upon being posted.

Ted

Post 1

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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ATTENTION TED,

I think your IQ of less than 100 has caused you to not realize that a week has passed on the other poll.


Okay, so I'm kidding. I promoted this one too soon. I AM SORRY :-)


Post 2

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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Sure SEEMS as if it's been a week on that other one [or wait, perhaps the one before, of equal value...];-)

Post 3

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 5:27pmSanction this postReply
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Sunday, Monday, Tuesday - sorry, I forgot there are three days in a week.

Ted

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Post 4

Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 4:49amSanction this postReply
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The New Individualist ran an excellent article some time ago outlining the many lessons learned from past wars that this administration failed to implement.

If I had known from the outset -- and perhaps I should have known -- that the idiots would institute a Sharia law constitutional theocracy in place of a secular dictatorship along with making those many other mistakes, I would have opposed it.

However, I selected "I have been in support of it all along" because initially it looked like a good idea and I cannot honestly say that "I now oppose it" because withdrawal looks like a worse option than what we have now.

This poll does not exhaust the logical possibilities!


Post 5

Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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This poll does not exhaust the logical possibilities!
I agree. I was initially in favor of the war when everyone thought that there were WMD's with the exception of Hans Blix, who had the credibility of a bacterium. (The UN should have appointed someone who believed there were WMD's and was determined to find them instead of just throwing up his hands and declaring there weren't any.)

The Germans and the French also thought the weapons existed but had such huge accounts receivable from Saddam and Iraq that they opposed the war. My reaction to this was to just say, "to hell with these jackasses" and adopt an attitude of self-protection for the US.

Sam



 


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Post 6

Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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Which Iraq war is being referred to? The one 1990? In my mind, the one in 2003 was an extension of the same war. I was against the one in 1990. I've come to the conclusion I was wrong then.

Post 7

Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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Sam, did you mean to say the credibility of a high school guidance counselor? I tend to take bacteria at their word.

I, of course, voted "for all along" but like Luke, that only means being for overthrow and against withdrawal.

We have lacked:

(1) A declaration that as Hussein was in violation of the 1991 Armistice, we were still in a state of war and that military action was necessary to end that 12 year low-level farce under which Saddam starved his own people to bribe the international left.
(2) The use of overwhelming force and martial law to prevent the insurgency.
(3) Adequate intelligence, propaganda and domestic justification, pre-war planning, contingency planning and cultural literacy.
(4) A treaty with the current government outlining our long-term commitment and the responsibilities of the Iraqis toward us for our continued support.

This is obviously not an exhaustive list. Those who accepted Saddam's oil-for-blood bribes should be put on trial for war crimes in Iraq. And the current administration is not the only one in the last 60 years not to know how to declare, define, fight and win a war decisively. Perhaps the biggest problem of all is that we no longer have a Department of War. We can agree to argue of when to pick our wars. But when we do, no one wins them playing only defence.

Ted Keer

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Post 8

Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 2:48pmSanction this postReply
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I chose "have never taken a position." Some participants on this site may see that choice of mine as dishonest -- because I've often argued with Iraq War enthusiasts here (and often left Iraq War decriers alone).

My big beef with the war is -- and has been -- that the value at which the action of war is/was aimed has not been clearly communicated to the American public. We are left with best guesses regarding our Commander in Chief's motivation(s). That's inadequate.

The reason that we are left to our own best guesses is because the "official" reasoning (about why we're there) has changed -- and 'changed reasoning' is unnacceptable.

I've said it before that, if I could know that it was in our own best interest (if I could know the variables juggled when we went to war), then I'd support the war. But I can't know all of these variables, because George W. Bush has not confided in me and shared them all with me.

So I, like all other citizens without direct access to the Pentagon or White House, am reduced to "best-guessing" and "third-party" reasoning. There is an answer to why we're there. There is some logical train of thought that led to our attacks on Iraq. It's just that ordinary citizens are not in the epistemological position to articulate this train of thought -- as that would require a candid personal communication with Bush, Rove, and/or Cheney.

Ed


Post 9

Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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Ed wrote:

> My big beef with the war is -- and has been -- that the value at which the action of
> war is/was aimed has not been clearly communicated to the American public. We are left
>with best guesses regarding our Commander in Chief's motivation(s). That's inadequate.

This exactly expresses my sentiments.

Regards,
--
Jeff

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Post 10

Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 5:10pmSanction this postReply
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It's difficult to know how to respond to these sentiments. With no intended insult, I can only suggest that you review some of the dozens of speeches the President has made over the past five years.

He has put forth why the U.S. is doing this so many times that nothing I say could possibly be in the least convincing. Perhaps reading it for yourself would make a difference.

When, or if, you do keep in mind that to have more than one reason for doing something is not the same thing as "changing the reasoning," particularly since the overriding reason has remained unchanged since day one: to eliminate the terrorist threat to the U.S. (Whether the specific actions taken were optimal in achieving that goal are beside the point here.)

Post 11

Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 9:34pmSanction this postReply
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Mixed Messages

Actually, Jeff, I find myself agreeing with Ed here for the most part. The President has put forth good cogent arguments, but mixed in with a bunch of nonsense and wishful thinking and irrelevancies. I don't think Ed's right to hint that Cheney or Rove know the reasons. I think Dubya simply made a gut decision and his brain tries to express justifications which sometimes come out well put and other times emerge garbled by his bird's nest psychoepistemology. I don't think anyone ever drew out a flow chart or a set of principles or a dichotomous key to guide the decisions by which we went to war. I think it was all a mixture of "we gotta do something" and "how hard could it be?" Now we see.

The good news is, it seems we are moving slowly in the right direction for the last 9 months. FOX recently showed Christians and other threatened minorities actually coming back from Syria and abroad, and some moderate sheiks attending a Christian Mass to show amity. This last is not something that Al Qaida would either condone or allow. I am surprised no one here has expressed the idea that the war seems better now.

Ted Keer

Post 12

Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 9:37pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff & Jeff, thanks for responding.

Jeff P., you wrote:
I can only suggest that you review some of the dozens of speeches the President has made over the past five years.

He has put forth why the U.S. is doing this so many times ...

... to eliminate the terrorist threat to the U.S. (Whether the specific actions taken were optimal in achieving that goal are beside the point here.)
Jeff, I don't agree that the merit of the specific actions taken is truly beside the point. On this point, I side with ARI. Any attack in the Middle East should've began with an attack on Iran (the real/genuine/authentic terrorist threat to the U.S.). 

Do you agree? And if not, why not?

Ed


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Post 13

Friday, December 14, 2007 - 8:02amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I agree that Iran should have been, and by any reasonable estimate remains, the primary state target of any wise effort to combat the jihadists.

When I said the actions taken were beside the point, I meant it in the context of judging whether the purpose in going to Iraq has been clearly stated. Of course one must judge all the actions taken by the Administration, both the good and the bad.

For ARI, it seems, all those actions are bad, none good. I've never, for example, seen any praise for re-taking Fallujah, for the mostly successful efforts of the past several months, etc. Like the left they say they despise, it's always all blame, with no extenuating circumstances and not even any praise with qualifiers. I'm guessing that to do so would be considered by them as 'concrete bound' and 'a failure to think in principle'. Now it's come to the point that Brook and Epstein say, in effect, even if it becomes a success, it was a failure. When you hear yourself so-often sounding like your political foes (the leftists), it's time to reevaluate the way you describe your position.

Ted,

I agree that the President and others in the Administration are pragmatists, that their reasoning is inconsistent, and the messages put out a mixture of heroic sounding statements and altruistic gobbledygook. I yet believe that the primary reason the U.S. went into Iraq has been stated dozens of times with sufficient clarity for anyone who has been paying attention, and who is objective, to see that Bush has stated it.

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Post 14

Friday, December 14, 2007 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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My position on the war in Iraq was initially in support, and then angered by the apparent deceptions in Bush's justifications. During debates on SOLOHQ I was convinced by the arguments of several, including Lindsay, that the war was indeed justified, though not for the reason given as primary by the administration. So, it was a justifiable war. Was it the right time? My remaining concern at the time was that the war in Afganistan didn't seem complete, and given that the WMD were NOT in Iraq, and the administration knew this to be likely, that they could have done a better job in Afganistan first before moving on to Iraq. That's basic military strategy. Basic.

As time has passed I've become more and more alarmed at what has happened in Afganistan, both in terms of a resurgent Taliban and pathetic central government. Not to mention the support of dictators like Musharif who aren't tough on the enemies hiding in there territory. The situation is going to get worse and worse and we are in jeopardy of losing this war yet. Then we have the complete mis-handling of the Iraq situation. I don't buy the hindsight being 20/20 stuff I've heard on this either. Credible experts made it clear BEFORE the war that we would not have any easy time once Saddam was toppled. The administration chose to ignore this and we have paid the price in money and lives that was simply not necessary. That is not defendable by any stretch. Now we have a broken state being held together only by our presence. Better than Saddam? That's a red herring. Getting rid of Saddam was good. But what we allowed to happen afterwards is awful, rotten, and foolish. We have paid more than we should have for this, and it isn't going to be what we expected either.

We are stuck now. Stuck fixing what didn't have to be broken. Winning the "war" was easy. What came after was much much harder, and the administration ignored this warning from credible people and chose to bungle ahead. We've chosen to build a crappy post war foundation and our house is forever going to be crumbling because of that foundation. We need to realize and say that this wasn't a surprise . It was the Commader-in-Chief's job to deal with this as much as the initial war. Every time he stands up and says that we need to give more, we need to realize that we need to give more becasue he FAILED at his job.

Ethan


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Post 15

Friday, December 14, 2007 - 3:40pmSanction this postReply
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I also had a hard time picking between the options.  At first, I wasn't for the war.  Nor was I against it.  There were some good reasons for and against it.  I thought the war was justified, in the sense that it was morally an option.  But whether it was worth fighting was not something that could be argued from a philosophical armchair.  It required estimates of how difficult it would be to win, what would we do afterwards, what effect would it have on other countries, how costly would the alternative be, and so on.  Unlike many who debated it, I was perfectly willing to recognize that I wasn't an expert on any of this, and an understanding of Objectivist philosophy didn't automatically grant me insight into all of the relevant facts.  So I wasn't really for or against it.

As the topic continued to be debated, I noticed that most of the anti-war people were making horrific philosophical errors.  They were each looking for some decisive principle that would make this war absolutely immoral and unjustified.  They were looking for a philosophical premise that could effectively silence any questions of fact.  Instead of a difficult case of applying many different principles to complex data, they wanted an all-or-nothing philosophy that could give an immediate and undisputed answer to the morality of this war.

I'll just list a few examples:
1.)  Since our government is funded by taxes, everything it does is immoral.
2.)  Saddam didn't initiate force against us, so we can't retaliate.
3.)  Because we're not a perfectly free country, we have no right to interfere with other countries.
4.)  The US is only justified in waging war if our own nation is in danger of falling.
5.)  Since we supported Iraq decades ago, we have no right to oppose them now.
6.)  Even though the government doesn't obey the Constitution in most things, in this one case Congress needs to declare war or it's immoral.

Obviously the list is a lot longer than this.  But the point was the kind of debates going on.  The anti-war side was trying to use philosophy to make information about the real world irrelevant.  Facts and information weren't needed or wanted.  Sloppy induction and investigation didn't matter.  We could do everything with A is A and a lot of deduction.  And the answers would be absolutes.  The war was not simply a bad idea, it was fundamentally immoral!

Instead of using philosophy to gain a deeper understanding of the world, they were using it as an excuse to not have to look further.

So I started arguing against this bad methodology.  The more I did, the more people assumed I was strongly for the war.  That wasn't the case, though.  It's just that the arguments from the people for the war were better in terms of methodology.  Many were just arguing that the war was in fact morally justified, without arguing whether it was a good idea.  Those who argued it was a good idea focused on the empirical data, trying to show that there were costs and benefits but the benefits were higher.  There were only a handful of pro-war people who were using bad methodology.  One ARI-type argued we should nuke the whole Middle East.  Another looney argued we should exterminate all Muslims in the world.  But these were uncommon on this site (and it's former incarnation), and the rest of the pro-war side did a fine job of arguing with them.

As the empirical case was made by the pro-war side, I became more of a believer that it was a good idea for the war, especially given what we knew then.  We had a treaty with Saddam and he didn't fulfill his side of it.  Specifically, he didn't prove that he had gotten rid of his WMD stockpile and programs.  He routinely kicked out the observers, and launch attacks on our no-fly zone aircraft.  We were spending something like $20 billion a year enforcing the no-fly zone.  The economic sanctions were a joke and totally corrupt, and to the extent they were useful they were hurting the civilians in Iraq.  And more importantly, while we let him flaunt his disregard of the treaty, we were communicating to the world that we don't have the resolve to do anything about it.  This just encouraged the belief that we were a paper tiger.    Continuing along that rode was likely to increase the threat to us.  After nearly a decade of it, we got attacked in our own country.

There were plenty of costs as well.  The expected lives lost.  The possible instability and new balance of power in the area.  The money.  The opportunity cost.  Stretching our military too thin.  All good points.  But in the end, I became convinced we couldn't maintain our then course of action indefinitely.  It needed to be done, and the dismissal of the arms inspectors just pushed it near the top of the list.

Now after the war started is a different situation.  There's much to disagree with.  Our decision to stay there and create a democracy was very questionable.  The biggest reason being that our country did not have the political will to enter a long term commitment there.

The results have been less than optimal, but the blame goes far.  The Democrats decided this was a war they'd be willing to lose in order to gain political power here.  The need for the war wasn't overwhelming, and the consequences of failure weren't immediate.  So they started  campaign to undermine it locally.  And it doesn't take too much insight to recognize that the enemies abroad recognized this as an opportunity.  If they could push the body count high enough for long enough, the Democrats would do what they couldn't do:  end the war in their favor. 

This symbiotic relationship between the Democrats and the terrorists had further implications.  Iran felt free to get involved, as long as it had a modicum of deniability, they knew the Democrats would push that as far as possible.  So whatever might have been, the situation only got worse with foreign involvement.

Given these offers of surrender conditioned on enough American's murdered, I find it difficult to put all the post-war blame on Bush.  Nor was this entirely expected.  Evil of this magnitude is not something you get used.  Nor was it commonly predicted.  Imagine if someone had warned about it before the war.  How would it sound?

"This war is a mistake.  While the military efforts may go smoothly, the real threat will occur in our own country.  The opposition party will fight on behalf of the enemy just to make sure the President can't claim victory.  They'll do everything they can to undercut morale, cut funding for the troops, encourage an insurgency, and declare that the evil side is the United States and its allies.  They'll continue this until there are enough body bags full that the people will vote them into power.  And they'll get away with treason by claiming this is not an American war, but simply Bush's war!"

How would it have turned out if we didn't have half the country rooting for the other side?  Hard to say.  There would probably still have been violence there.  Al Qaeda would probably have still been there, although they might not have gotten as much support.  Iran might have been less willing to risk involvement.  More people there might have decided that if we weren't going to budge with violence, they better get the peace process going so they could get rid of us.

This is why it's hard for most people to simply state that they're for the war.  Nobody can be for everything that's happened.  Those who thought it was important to go in did not support the attempts within the US to undermine the war.  Those who think we should stay do not think we should continue to dangle the carrot of surrender in exchange for American corpses.  Nobody is happy with the entire situation.  But if we're going to point fingers, I'd prefer to point it at those who are undermining the war and encouraging violence for political gain.


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Post 16

Friday, December 14, 2007 - 6:40pmSanction this postReply
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Joe Said:

The Democrats decided this was a war they'd be willing to lose in order to gain political power here.
Right on target!


Post 17

Friday, December 14, 2007 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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Joe get's at something that I was trying to point out in my blog http://rebirthofreason.com/Spirit/Blogs/8.shtml and that I missed in my earlier post by focusing on Bush. He rightly points the finger at the Deocrats for the vile (vilest!) evil of being willing to suffer the war for as much power as they can get. They are little better than the Iranian regime who loves raking us over the coals in Iraq.

Between The Dems' wails and teeth gnashing and Bush's calls for patriotic sticking by the troops, who he has so royally screwed, to the stories of injured and distraught vets being booted out of the service for BS reasons so as to deny them VA benefits, I've had a belly-full of crap. Republicans and Democrats are rotten to the core.

E.


Post 18

Friday, December 14, 2007 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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Joe writes:

"Instead of using philosophy to gain a deeper understanding of the world, they were using it as an excuse to not have to look further."

Joe, you've described, elegantly and in a nutshell, my fundamental objection to the way in which Objectivism has been perverted by rationalists.

You also put in words much of my own perspective on the war in Iraq.

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Post 19

Saturday, December 15, 2007 - 7:10amSanction this postReply
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I remember live video feeds of the first bombs being dropped on strategic targets in Iraq. The title at the bottom of the screen was "War on Iraq". I was infuriated. I thought we should not be going to "War with Iraq". Instead, we should assassinate Saddam. The title and purpose should be "War to topple Saddam Hussein's regime".

And it makes no sense to me that we are nation building Iraq.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 12/15, 7:11am)


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