RoR: Forum

I know this poll just started, but I would really like the "something for nothing" crowd to explain themselves regarding their votes for $0. Notice that the poll asks about the maximum you would willingly pay, not just what you would prefer to pay.

Do Objectivists really have that little interest in meeting other Objectivists for friendship formation? I know of a number of successful local Objectivist groups around the country that charge dues to cover miscellaneous expenses, so that cannot be universally true.

Post 1

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 3:42pm

Sorry, Luke, from what little I learnt at SOLO/ROR, there are some Objectivists whom I wouldn't want to meet even if I am paid money for it.

Post 2

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 11:49pm

Hi Luke,

This one's hard for me too. My experience with local groups is that while some people are pretty good, the others are so bad that I would pay not to deal with them. I'm tempted to do the zero as well.

Now if the group was full of really good people that I liked (like many of the people here on RoR), I would pay a lot more. In fact, I pay more than that to keep RoR going every month.

I guess the quality varies way too much. And since I interact with Objectivists in person on a daily basis, I don't have the strong need to go "clubbing".

Post 3

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 11:55pm

Hong, you might be surprised at how many of the people turn out pretty nice in person. Something about the internet, and maybe Objectivist forums in particular, bring out the very worst in people. But they're far less likely to be real jerks when they're face to face. It depends on the situation, of course. At conference, most people are there to meet and discuss and enjoy themselves. Same is true at some club meetings. Sometime the format is more of a debate, and it brings out the jerks again.

If you've never been to a conference, you are getting a very skewed view of how Objectivists are in person. It's like night and day.

Post 4

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 11:06am

Hi Joe,
>If you've never been to a conference, you are getting a very skewed view of how Objectivists are in person.
Very likely. But do you know anyone who is a jerk or a bore on Objectivist forums turns out to be nice and witty in person?

While I said that there are some people I would like to run away from, I forgot to mention that there are also a few people whom I wouldn't mind to have dinner with (my treat), or drive a few hundred miles to meet!

Post 5

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 12:52pm

I've never been to a "Meetup" site, but I like the free forums that are available, like this one and SOLO. Why pay for that when it's already free? If you start charging, you'll push out people who don't have a couple of bucks in their budgets (college students, for instance).

Post 6

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 1:00pm

Like Netzero, Meetup started out free. Then they found out it couldn't pay the bills. They started charging after that. They do still have the domain name.

Post 7

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 2:31pm

Hong, yes I do know such people. Plenty of people are very different in person than online. I told Ed Thompson this when I met him last year. His online personality appears dry and technical. In person, he's an outgoing, friendly, intelligent guy that most everyone would warm up to quickly. I think both styles are likable, but it shows a strong contrast.

There are others that I've met who are wonderful in person, but when I see their online comments, they come off as rather abrupt and maybe even rude. Sometimes it's just the way they write.

I've been told that I'm very different online as well. More serious than I am in person.

Some of the bigger jerks generally have character flaws even in person. But online, they're exaggerated and made more universal. The positive parts don't come across as well. It's not like they're jerks all the time. They're probably much more friendly and enjoyable in person.

I'm not trying to argue that you want to be friends with any of these people. But when you meet people in real life, they tend to be far more normal. Without talking about philosophy, there's nothing atypical about them. And there is the bonus that they tend to agree with you on many of the fundamentals (at least, to the extent you believe in Objectivist ideas).

It's this last part that really makes the in person experience unique. It's someone you can be open with and not have to fear opening a debate or insulting them. If you feel like saying "Wow...that whole god thing is so stupid!", you're not going to hear gasps of shock and prayers for interventions. You can feel like yourself and feel like you belong in the world, instead of seeing the constant conflict of ideas with the majority of people. It's a reassuring feeling.

I'd make a few caveats though. First, Objectivists come from all walks of life, so if you're used to dealing with very educated people, you'll find that many Objectivists don't qualify. Also, there will tend to be a few crack-pots. And there will always be people who don't really appreciate or understand the philosophy, but think they do.

Post 8

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 10:51pm

Hong: "I forgot to mention that there are also a few people whom I wouldn't mind to have dinner with (my treat),..."

Did you say, "my treat", as in, your willing to foot the bill?

Would that include drinks as well?

Just as a hypothetical, say a person wanted to have 10 Jack Daniel's on ice, if that person also ate a small bag of salted peanuts, would you be willing to count that as "dinner"?

George

Post 9

Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 3:17pm

On line dialog suffers drastically from the lack of immediate feedback and of non-verbal cues. These deficiencies escalate what might be fraction-of-a-second misunderstandings in real life to apparent rudeness and obfuscation. Witness my posts on the Limits of Rational Egoism thread which I am quite sure would be easily understood in a brief conversation but which earned me nothing but unrewarded disdain for all my effort. I will leave the matter on that thread for either personal conversation or for a booklength treatment. Feedback on-line is too slow to maintain civility, especially when someone thinks his ox is being gored.

Of course, some people really just are jackasses.

And as for "something for nothing" I voted $0 because most of the self-identified objectivists I have met even before the existence of the online community have been miserable elitist bastards who view Rand as a sanction for their hatred and contempt. I truly prefer the company of Mexican illegal aliens to most so-called intellectuals.

Now before this is misinterpreted, anyone whom I have found abrasive on this website already knows my opinion, so please do not take this rather stark appraisal as a put-down of RoR. I believe I have said before that this is the most civil and interesting of the current fora of which I am aware.

Ted

Post 10

Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 8:49pm

I assumed the monthly "meet-up" is an actual gathering of local self-identified objectivists. I voted $5/month because I've never actually met an objectivist in person (one or two who've read Atlas Shrugged). I think it would be interesting. Of course, the $5 might be a one time expenditure.

Post 11

Friday, January 26, 2007 - 7:17am

Used to have a gathering a couple years ago - lasted about a year, monthly meetings.... trouble was, was hard for most to get there on any prestated day/time - too many had occupations making it difficult... so - it ended floundering.... but admit, while it lasted, was interesting, and were several ones there which enjoyed meeting....
(Edited by robert malcom on 1/26, 7:17am)

Post 12

Friday, January 26, 2007 - 12:44pm

Robert, please tell us more:

How did you all meet each other?
What sorts of events did you schedule?
Did you simply maintain a personal e-mail list of contacts or did you use some sort of Internet service or even a call tree?
Did you charge any dues?
Where did you meet?
Etc.

Post 13

Friday, January 26, 2007 - 1:30pm

Meetup has a system in which Organizers can recruit sponsors to finance their Meetups:

http://orc.meetup.com/archives/2006/04/how_to_obtain_a_1.html

http://orc.meetup.com/archives/2006/02/getting_group_s_1.html

If these articles spark any ideas, please post them.

Post 14

Friday, January 26, 2007 - 2:05pm

George: Just as a hypothetical, say a person wanted to have 10 Jack Daniel's on ice, if that person also ate a small bag of salted peanuts, would you be willing to count that as "dinner"?

Only if this hypothetical person is extremely handsome with startling blue eyes!

Post 15

Friday, January 26, 2007 - 2:09pm

It started, as I recall, as a letter of inquiry from someone who was familiar with Objectivism, and we met in meeting rooms of the top of the Bank of America building here, because one of the members was a member of that club... he was charged $25/meeting, held usually once a month, on a saturday - it being the least unused day of the week for most..... Michael Newberry attended a couple of times, so you could ask him how it got going and how he got into it..... there wasn't as such dues, only a pot in which to defray the club member's cost [he, BTW, rarely attended, being out of town most times, but figured his contribution was the room]....

As for what we discussed, is ranged from going thru the Philosophy: Who Needs It book to informal talks of our various fields... it petered out for lack of enough members being able to attend the meetings, and no other day being any better [many had jobs which required extensive traveling, was my impression]...

We even tried to revive it by meeting at a French restaurant, but the scheduling conflicts remained, and it in effect died......

(Edited by robert malcom on 1/26, 2:11pm)

Post 16

Friday, January 26, 2007 - 7:38pm

In terms of the greatest number of positive ratings from participants, the North Texas Objectivist Society at

http://aynrand.meetup.com/71/

wins hands down. With over 140 members and regular monthly events, their working policy of a "suggested donation" of ten dollars per year via PayPal after attending six events looks like it works well. This lets people warm up to the established members with no pressure while discouraging outright mooching. I like it.

Post 17

Friday, January 26, 2007 - 10:15pm

I can find locals from the RoR Michigan group. All I have to do is drive to Lansing from Ann Arbor. With RoR Michigan, I have some idea who I am meeting and there is some forum here for support. So, I do not see a need for Meetup.Com.

I wish I had the time. I am enrolled fulltime at two schools (Washtenaw Community College and Eastern Michigan University) and last week, I put in 42.5 hours at work. So, the group thing just has not worked out for me.

But the schools are another opportunity. It would be pretty easy to get a couple of groups going. Unlike the U of M which is pretty much a crowd of kids in dorms, EMU is a working person's university, so even the "younger" students often have families, spouses, children, jobs, careers, and the other hallmarks of mature judgment and considered insight. But, again, I just don't have the time.

Then, there is the issue of quality of interaction. I mean the people are fine, and socializing is great. I always enjoy it. But realize that I am not fast on my feet. There was a time 35 years ago when I was -- or thought I was... But now, I prefer to think things through. In one of my criminal justice classes, the professor and I had a tete-a-tete, nothing harsh, but a definite exchange and it took me a few days to think through the last challenge. We tend to put ourselves down for that: "I should have said..." but I refuse to accept the guilt. At one of the Solvay conferences, Bohr and Einstein went at each other hammer and tongs and needed to "sleep on it" before coming back with an answer. Snappy patter is for standup comics.

So, the idea of getting with a dozen strangers and debating the psycho-epistemology of error or whatever seems less than attractive. On the other hand, I would willingly pay to attend an expert presentation -- even a socratic dialog -- on the same subject.

That's why I voted $0 for Meetup.com.

Post 18

Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 7:51am

MEM wrote:

Then, there is the issue of quality of interaction. I mean the people are fine, and socializing is great. I always enjoy it. But realize that I am not fast on my feet.

[...]

So, the idea of getting with a dozen strangers and debating the psycho-epistemology of error or whatever seems less than attractive. On the other hand, I would willingly pay to attend an expert presentation -- even a socratic dialog -- on the same subject.

I see these local clubs as more an opportunity for no-nonsense social interactions than as a forum for vigorous debating. The Internet discussion forums have basically removed the need for face-to-face confrontations on technical aspects of the philosophy. As you rightly note, these ideas need chewing and digesting over more time than a drawing room would permit.

Given man's nature as a social animal, however, interacting live with others seems an intractable need for emotional health written into our DNA. It would be nice to be able to interact regularly without having to deal with the irrationalities of religion, etc. that permeate so many souls. In my younger days, I kept returning to church despite my misgivings about religion simply because of this hunger to interact with people socially in a safe environment. Over time, I have found better and better ways to satisfy that need without having to put my mind in jeopardy.

Post 19

Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 6:59pm