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Post 80

Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:52amSanction this postReply
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Post #79 actually made my skin crawl.

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Post 81

Monday, May 29, 2006 - 12:27amSanction this postReply
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According to the moral perfection model, human beings exist to fit into a logical mold. Reason does not serve human life. Human life serves reason. Human life is not the primary value. The logical mold is. I reject this view as anti-life and especially as it is based on an incorrect premise.

On the sales figures of PARC, I arrived at the following conclusions based on a bit of speculative research:
  • Under 1,000 copies have been sold to date (and my gut feeling is that the figure is well under 1,000).
  • On Amazon, sales are around 1 copy being sold a week.
You can find how I arrived at these figures at the following link: "How many PARC books are being sold?"

Michael

Post 82

Monday, May 29, 2006 - 12:01pmSanction this postReply
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> reliable sales figures for most books aren't available from any centralized source. Authors get royalty statements and (assuming there's been no finagling) they can arrive at the correct numbers. But that information is, as you noted, highly dispersed. And publishers aren't inclined to give it out to just anyone who asks.

Robert, if I were an author I would be extremely upset at this. It's like if a salesman works on commission and he doesn't take the orders, they are phoned into the corporate office. When his check comes he's told he can't check the books or see proof of the numbers and just has to "trust them".

> Academic books often sell in the hundreds... including all the copies bought by libraries.

That certainly sounds like an indictment of publish or perish. I get the sense so many academics are cranking out books no one has time to keep up even within their own specialty. Do they rely on academic journals to separate the wheat from the chaff? Is there some equivalent of mainstream book or movie reviewers to act as adult supervision...or recommendation? And are they objective and reliable?

> You shouldn't assume, by the way, that copies bought by libraries will "gather dust." Some books may sit on a shelf without being checked out for 50 years; others may have people waiting in line to read them.

The thing that bothers me about all this is I get the sense that in the academic world, in the humanities, it would be difficult for the great but original mind to even be heard, past the cliques and the sheer volume of paper. Unless he is fortunate enough to be "connected" -- right university, right program. Right publisher else no one will even look at the book?

Sort of like a mafia "made man"?

Quality does not always out...especially if it challenges many premises. Is that an unfair "outsider" conclusion?


Post 83

Monday, May 29, 2006 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Fletcher wrote:
Post #79 actually made my skin crawl.
Yes: that's one of the reactions of a good orthodox Objectivist.

But see: Objectivists are indeed grouped in the Objectivist collective. Just face this fact. With an open mind, it's not that tough.

Joel Català



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Post 84

Monday, May 29, 2006 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Catala said:
But see: Objectivists are indeed grouped in the Objectivist collective. Just face this fact. With an open mind, it's not that tough
No, it's not a fact.  It's your opinion.  You seem to have a difficult time distinguishing the two.  And the fact that I found your remarks in post #79 distasteful does not imply that I have a closed mind.  Just a weak stomach.


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Post 85

Monday, May 29, 2006 - 5:07pmSanction this postReply
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My serious interest in Objectivism began around the same time PARC was published. As a "newbie" I am concentrating on Ms. Rand's writings and "attempting" to steer clear of the various controversies within Objectivism. I was however appalled by Mr. Valliant's role in the recent smearing of Chris Sciabarra. If his case against the Brandens is as clear and convincing as Ms. Hsieh's case against Chris, I'm prepared to be less than impressed.

The recent controversies over the publication of PARC remind me of something I read in Al Franken's "Lies And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them". Although he was discussing how conservatives love America like little children love their mommy, and that liberals love America like adults, I think this can apply to the Objectivist movement with regards to its founder Ayn Rand. Objectivists like Mr. Valliant, Mr. Fahey, Ms. Hsieh and Mr. Maurone love Ayn Rand like little children: in their minds, Everything she did was good; anyone who criticizes her in any way, however small, is bad. This approach to Objectivism is dishonest and unproductive, and, ultimately, destructive to the growth of the Objectivist movement.

To quote Franken: "Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad and helping your loved one grow." The "blinders-on; Ayn Rand could do no wrong and anyone who insinuates she did is a big fat immoral and evil meanie," approach is childish. As long as this kind of approach to promoting Objectivism is favored, Objectivism as a movement will indeed be as stillborn as Ms. Hshieh fears, and she and people like Valliant will have aided in its killing.

Post 86

Monday, May 29, 2006 - 5:45pmSanction this postReply
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Mick,
The matter of the character of Ayn Rand is very much an important issue insofar as we are interested in how ideas can be concretized in actual life, instantiated in actual human beings, and how we are to judge human beings objectively.  And it's particularly interesting, seeing as we have a philosophy to live on, and in its form qua Objectivism it comes from one person -- Ayn Rand -- and thereby have a legitimate interest in whether Objectivism's founder is someone who herself found her ideas practical to live by.  Is there something about Ayn Rand's life that wouldn't suggest that she did live by her ideals -- in her terms, resoundingly?

The Branden accounts of her life would seem to suggest not -- that she was great and achieved a lot, but that she had her faults and that those faults are worth pointing out.  And they seem to have this picture painted of Ayn Rand as a lady who acted out of control and very much in contrast to her own princples, as it applies to them and her disassociation from them.  That somehow, despite all her (supposed) honesty and integrity everywhere else, she dropped it in order to denounce them.  That can be a pretty damaging picture to paint.  I mean, isn't everyone allowed to "twist the truth" or sell out on principles a little sometimes in order to get ahead?  Isn't that what Rand was doing to them out of her rage?  Was Rand only paying lip service to principle given how she treated the Brandens?

One would get the very distinct impression from both Branden accounts (their '68 response and their books) that indeed, she did have a meltdown of character in that incident.  She allegedly went and did all these nasty things, that their less harmful wrong done to her was outweighed by her response, making her the aggressor.

It's a damaging account of Rand the person, and if it's not based on truth, then it's quite an injustice to a great woman.  The point of PARC is to tell you the rrrrest of the story ("Paul Harvey . . . Good day!"), which apparently we just didn't get in the Branden accounts.  That's one of the reasons I look forward to reading it.


Post 87

Monday, May 29, 2006 - 7:46pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

I didn't mean to imply that authors don't know how well their books are selling.  They are told this information on their royalty statements--unless their publisher is crooked.
It's third parties who usually won't get the time of day if they ask a publisher how well a book is selling.

In other words, Mr. Valliant knows how well his book has sold so far--unless his publisher is crooked.  His profession not to know PARC's sales figures, in an earlier post on this thread, is unconvincing.

Academic publishing has an elaborate system of gatekeeping, both at the editorial level and the "referee" or "peer review" level.  But the more fragmented and specialized academic writing gets, the more fragmented and specialized the editors' and reviewers' judgments tend to get.

William Scott Sherk has cited Susan Haack's article on a couple of occasions

http://www.highbeam.com/library/docfree.asp?DOCID=1G1:20379231&ctrlInfo=Round20%3AMode20e%3ADocG%3AResult&ao=

It provides an insider's skeptical perspective on the proliferation of academic publications.

Original ideas that are relevant to one's own work could easily be missed, among the all the journal articles and books and such.  The conference circuit helps, but conferences tend to reflect the same fragmentation that publishing does.  Conferences that deliberately avoid organization by discipline or specialty are extremely helpful--I wish there were more like the Positive Psychology Summit.

Robert Campbell

(Edited by Robert Campbell on 5/29, 7:47pm)

(Edited by Robert Campbell on 5/29, 7:51pm)

(Edited by Robert Campbell on 5/29, 7:51pm)


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Post 88

Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 3:39amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Fletcher wrote:

Mr. Catala said:
But see: Objectivists are indeed grouped in the Objectivist collective. Just face this fact. With an open mind, it's not that tough
No, it's not a fact.  It's your opinion. 
Let's detail my point: 


1) You Objectivists typically say you are part of the Objectivist movement.
2) A "movement" is formed by a group of people. (A movement formed by an individual would be ridiculous.)
3) By definition, a grouping of people is not individual, but collective.
4) Point 3 is a fact consequence of the existence of the group of individuals who label themselves as Objectivist.


[...] the fact that I found your remarks in post #79 distasteful does not imply that I have a closed mind.  Just a weak stomach. 
Reasoning involves the brain, not the stomach.

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 5/30, 4:12am)


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Post 89

Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 7:05amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Catala,
Your sophistry is amusing, but not of much use in this discussion.  This is an Objectivist site.  Anyone posting here should, in my opinion, have a basic understanding of Objectivism.  How can you "combat" something you don't understand?

Collectivism has a specific meaning in Objectivism.  And to say of an Objectivist that he/she is in a collective is insulting.  Let me educate you on what collectivism means in Objectivism:
From "Racism" in The Virtue of Selfishness:
"Collectivism holds that the individual has no rights, that his life and work belong to the group ... and that the group may sacrifice him at its own whim to its own interests."

From The Ominous Parallels by Peikoff:
"Collectivism holds that, in human affairs, the collective -- society, the community, the nation, the proletariat, the race, etc. -- is the unit of reality and the standard of value."

But, the more I think about it the more likely I find it that you know this and that your insult was intended.  So, either you were being intentionally insulting or you are ignorant of a fundamental concept in Objectivism.  Neither enhances the value of your posts.


Post 90

Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 7:07amSanction this postReply
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This is an Objectivist site.
Yes. And you are not the owner of this Objectivist site, ok?

I try to use the English dictionary definitions of every word I use, not the Objectivist. 

Not Ayn Rand, nor any Objectivist will transform English into a Newspeak.

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 5/30, 7:11am)


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Post 91

Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 7:14amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Catala,
Have a nice life.


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Post 92

Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 8:05amSanction this postReply
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I have read PARC twice. The first time, I tentatively concluded that it was a piece of garbage. The second time, I confirmed my earlier impression. Nothing I have read on any of the discussion boards since has convinced me otherwise.

As some have pointed out, the actual effect of PARC on Ayn Rand's legacy and the spread of Objectivism is likely to be the opposite of the intent of its author and his supporters. But PARC is just one symptom of the mismanagement of Rand's estate, which has to be laid squarely at the feet of Leonard Peikoff, her executor.

If I were inclined to be overly protective of the reputation and image of the Goddess (Ayn Rand), I would have discouraged, not provided materials for, the writing of this book. So, obviously Peikoff does not care about how Rand is going to look to the general public or newcomers to Objectivism. If I were inclined to honor Rand's wishes about her writings, I would have donated them all to the Library of Congress for all scholars to study and use in their writings, not let them ooze out in carefully selected snibbets for use in "insider" books. But it appears that Peikoff really doesn't care about Rand's wishes either. So, Leonard Peikoff's role in PARC deserves a round of boo-hiss for its dishonorable, destructive results.

REB


Post 93

Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Fletcher: you can't offend me, simply because offense must be taken.

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 5/30, 8:19am)


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Post 94

Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 1:48pmSanction this postReply
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REB writes (in post 92),

"If I were inclined to be overly protective of the reputation and image of the Goddess (Ayn Rand), I would have discouraged, not provided materials for, the writing of this book."

That touches on something I'm curious about, the question of what the material was which Leonard Peikoff saw which led him, in his role of Executor of Rand's estate, to grant permission to James Valliant to publish the journal entries which appear in the finished book. My understanding is that an earlier version of Part I of the book appeared on Casey Fahy's website, and that this was the material Leonard read which led to his decision to make material from the Rand Archives available to JV for publishing. Is the earlier version still available anywhere? I'd be interested in comparing it to the published version out of curiosity to see what changes and additions were made.

Ellen

___

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Post 95

Friday, June 2, 2006 - 10:32amSanction this postReply
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Here is an interesting bit of information. Google has launched a new service called Trends. Go to the following link:

http://google.com/trends

and type in: objectivism, ayn rand

This will show you a trend analysis of internet searches performed for each of these terms, plotted on the same graph. There are three interesting points:

1: Ayn Rand gets referenced about five times more frequently than Objectivism. There are many reasons for this, but it does show that the personality of the individual is much "stronger" than the presence of the philosophy. No surprise really. I wonder if this could/would ever change?

2: Click on the Regions tab in the lower chart and you will see that India has almost the same percentage of searches for "Objectivism" as the US and actually a higher percentage of searches for "Ayn Rand"! (This is percentage of searches out of total searches conducted. The top ranking for the US must indicate more total searches.) I think this bit of information is very important. Maybe TOC, ARI, etc. should be focusing their marketing efforts in a new direction!

3: The trend lines for both Ayn Rand and Objectivism have had a slight but steady decline over the past 2.5 years. This can be more clearly seen if you just type in one or the other term as the individual graphs will be shown at a larger scale. This is another interesting piece of information. If the Atlas Shrugged movie were to be released, there would be a huge temporary spike in references that would mask this trend. I think this needs to be investigated before that masking occurs to see if any reasons could be determined for this decline.

--
Jeff

Post 96

Friday, June 2, 2006 - 10:40amSanction this postReply
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I suspect that #3 is a matter of saturation.  When the web and search engines came into use, there was a decades-long backlog of people searching Rand for the first time.  Eventually (two and a half years ago, according to your numbers) they found the sites that interested them and quit running searches.  The people who've run them since then are more and more the newcomers.

Peter

(Edited by Peter Reidy on 6/02, 6:39pm)


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Post 97

Friday, June 2, 2006 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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"Atlas Shrugged" does better than "Objectivism," too -- the second most-used Rand-related search term, after her name. "Fountainhead," standing alone as a single word, does even better -- but "THE Fountainhead" does not.

All pretty much as common sense would lead you to expect.

Post 98

Friday, June 2, 2006 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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Joel, regarding your claim that Objectivists belong to a "collective," you might be interested to know that Rand had a name for her inner circle back in the '60's. Yup, she called it "The Collective." That should give you even more intellectual ammunition with which to accuse Objectivists of being members of a collective! And since I've gone to the trouble of giving you this information, I expect you to use it. Okay?! Whatever you do, don't forget to mention that you have the sanction of Rand herself.

I always like to contribute to a worthy intellectual cause whenever I can. ;-)

- Bill

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Post 99

Sunday, June 4, 2006 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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The enemies of Ayn Rand and Objectivism must find all this bickering over the rival accounts of what was primarily a lovers' quarrel, thirty-eight years ago, to be highly amusing. No doubt they are cheering it on, and would love to add even more fuel to the fire.  Collectivists of all stripes, left, right, and center, know that the longer that Objectivists devote themselves to arguing among themselves about what "really" happened and who was "really" at fault, the less time they will have to apply and spread Objectivism. Which is certainly very heartening to all those that hate and (rightly) fear the philosophical arguments of Objectivism.

Students of the history of ideological (and religious) movements would find all of this in-fighting, (preceded and followed by, the requisite schisms and purges) very familiar. Intellectual history is littered with the wrecked, dead, and dying corpses of ideological movements that diverted their attention from their original goals of developing and applying their own philosophies and opposing their common enemies, to instead turn on each other in endless accusations of ideological purity.

If any O'ist thinks that that might have been true of Marxists and certain religionists, but that surely does not apply to us, had better review any of the myriad accounts of what these movements did to themselves - and see how closely their endless accusations and counter-accusations parallel what is now going on in Objectivist forums (over PAR/MYWAR/PARC and related fruitless denunciations). We may be individualists and they collectivists, but the methods and types of argumentation are practically identical. If were so "different," why do we sound the same?

For example, see The Prophets of Paris, by Frank Manuel, on the rise and fall of the movements founded by Auguste Comte and Henri Saint-Simon. Predescessors and rivals to Marx, the Marxists never had to worry about them because the Comteans and Saint-Simonians were too busy arguing with each other and thus rendered their own movements impotent and irrelevant. The same thing happened to the Trotskyists - so much infighting (about rival personalities and ideological purity) that they never became a force to reckon with, and none of their innumerable parties ever gained any substantial influence, anywhere, in the world.

"Good!," you might say, but what about us? Look what we are doing to ourselves!
This pseudo-controversy (and the other related squabbles, eg, "Who is the ONE and TRUE keeper of the faith?" and "Let's denounce and purge those heretics!") reminds me of the quote that Milton Friedman put on the frontispiece to his satirical little book, Is There a Sociology of the Absurd?   Attributed to Napoleon, it reads, 
"Never interrupt your enemies when they are in the process of destroying themselves."


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