RoR: Forum

Good points, Kelly - would add that a knuckle jab into the eye is a help as well [or a thumb]... those points - eyes, nose, and especially the throat - are vulnerable no matter how well built one is.... and the groin, in a drunk, is oft not even noticed when hit, as well - as you said - not so easily hit directly......

Post 21

Monday, May 2, 2005 - 8:10am

Kelly:
>I was taught to go for the instep (following the leg down with my foot), the nose (with the base of my hand), and the torso (with my elbow). Do you think that's right?

Kelly, if it gets physical, go for the eyes with your fingernails. Don't be squeamish, its you or them. Get right in there. Hurts like hell, plus if you do a good job they won't be able to see. Instinctively they'll let you go for a moment, and that's your chance. It's the one thing that will work on the ground too, where 90% of attacks end up, and where brawn will triumph most of the time. Things like the groin are actually quite hard to get effectively, especially if the guy has a fighting stance with one leg in front of the other. The single incapacitating shot that you then walk away from never really happens in real life. Or you have to be a pro to pull it off. Lots of screaming and biting helps too. Think angry (and psychotic...;-)), not afraid. They like afraid.

- Daniel

Post 22

Monday, May 2, 2005 - 1:37pm

The "sweet spot" for any target is difficult to hit in a moving, aware opponent. You must be in continuous motion and aware of all potential target areas, including the groin, as they become available and you must be aware of opportunities to escape if they become available in a physical confrontation. It requires an amount of practice which does not fit into most peoples lifestyles. Empty hand combat must be taken even more seriously that shooting skills if one hopes to be effective with it. It takes far more practice to achieve minimal levels of competence. Especially if you are a small person or not athletically gifted. I recommend the Kajukenbo style. It's origin was to be a system of scientifically designed street fighting. It began in Hawaii in the 50's when several high ranking black belts of several different styles got together to create a style purely for self defense. It incorporates Chinese Kempo, Aikido, Jui-Jitsu, Tae Kwan Do, and filipino fighting arts. The forms you learn in practice include knife and club attacks, defense against grabs from behind and from the front and attacks from multiple opponents, as well as many 'pinans' which essentially are the "encyclopedia" of the style. All of this is taught in a progressive manner. The style is continually growing, incorporating techniques that are proven to be effective by various practitioners. The style is as unique as the people who practice it. Effectiveness, not tradition is the goal.

After saying all of that, what I carry with me when I go somewhere are my astute powers of observation, and an advanced ability to mind my own business. I will always look for a way out of a potentially dicey situation. Your first line of self defense is being as physically fit as you know how to be. This can even help you to survive a car accident you may not otherwise survive. Being fit and confident and keeping your eyes open are the best ways to insure not becoming a target. And not hanging out where the predators are known to be.

Kelly,
If your instructors told you to avoid the groin area, I think you should find different instructors. The groin is a very very good target area. Some idiots used to teach like that some years back, the rational being "you don't want to make the aggressor get too mad". That's bullshit. Hurt them as much as you can and get away.

Post 23

Monday, May 2, 2005 - 2:56pm

I really do feel sorry for y'all. A friend of mine has an M-16 (semiauto) and I of course have a large assortment of rifles and shotguns. I don't have the time much anymore but the concept of being told I can't go out to the woods or the range is unthinkable.

I'm only shot at another man once in my life and that was to scare him. Basically someone was banging on the door at 2 o'clock in the morning and I ran there with a shotgun in hand. We have a motion light by our door and it was on. When I got to the door, I seen a wet naked girl (she was only 12) running away from the door down the driveway to the street, about 30 yards (surbanish area in the country). I stayed at the door, confused as hell, then I seen an older man running down the street screaming her name, but naked too. The light over the door made it hard to see but I just acted and took a low shot at him. I don't think he even heard. My neighbor accross the street, an old white guy who came out about the same time I did, came out with a rifle and started chasing him. The man ran into a ditch and stayed there for like 5 mins until the cops got there.

I didn't know the man cause he moved in while I was at school but it turns out he was an engineer for Shell who, for some reason, just cracked. The girl was his niece who was in the shower at the time. He stabbed her little sister and went after her after she called 911.

My point is, if she would have waited another few seconds I would have opened the door for her and soon after had a crazy man with a bloody knife at my door. So screw anyone who says otherwise, I'm glad I got my gun.

Post 24

Monday, May 2, 2005 - 3:05pm

Think hit but also, moreso, think hurt. That means do what you have to with intensity. Yes hit to the groin but if you can also grab, gouge, bite. If you are in that situation form doesnt matter. Dont merely scratch at the eyes, or poke at them, *intend* to take them out. This is a fight for your life.

John

Post 25

Monday, May 2, 2005 - 3:52pm

Damn Clarence, that's one hell of a scenario. Sounds like it worked out as best as it could for both you & the girl.

Post 26

Monday, May 2, 2005 - 4:32pm

Clarence wrote: "A friend of mine has an M-16 (semiauto) and I of course have a large assortment of rifles and shotguns."

Do you mean the M-16 or the AR-15? The latter is a legal carbine but the former is a military assault rifle and is not legal for civilians (damn ATF). Interesting story, by the way. You are probably from the good, old South . . . I love y'all rednecks! Unfortunately, carbines and rifles are not the weapons of choice for home or personal defense in the majority of urban or suburban environments. There are too many chances for collateral damage even in the hands of an expert. Handguns and revolvers are the best bet.

I have trained in martial arts for as long as I can remember, and have been in more street fights than I care to remember! From my experience, a kick or strike to the groin can be effective when done right, but with mixed results. Krav Maga is a self-defense system that emphasizes refinement of our instinctive response to a threat. When attacked at closer ranges, what comes naturally to most people is to knee or kick someone in the groin. This tactic often works because, when attacking at close range, an attacker will stand with a more square stance. Having said that, I have kicked drunken brawlers in the groin only to piss them off. That is why I clinched them and kicked them in the groin repeatedly until they passed out from the pain.

In punching or kicking ranges, a fighter will fight with one leg forward, making the groin a less accessible target. It is better, then, to kick someone in the knee or thigh (a couple good kicks to the fomoral nerve can drop someone), or strike them in the eye, throat, or solar plexus.

Post 27

Monday, May 2, 2005 - 8:03pm

There are a couple of good pieces on the UK here among other useful articles:

http://donrearic.com/main.html

And, of course, there is this collection of wisdom...

http://www.righteouswarriortemple.org/

To me, between the State and criminals, the State is the greater threat. So if your government outlaws guns, you are probably still safer to go unarmed than to go up against the State. However, if your State has outlawed guns, you are living under an evil, collectivist tyranny that has contempt for the individual and that knowledge should govern how you view your relationship with it.

If your government does not infringe the right to own firearms, I would say, yeah, if you don't own one or more, you are a wimp. If your state offers you the ability to carry concealed, you should do that, too. You should absolutely arm yourself to the limit of whatever law you are living under and that should be your line in the sand. You should arm yourself and do all you can politically to make sure that your right is protected. Because once that right is gone, its damned unlikely you will ever get it back and if you do it will probably cost a lot of blood.

The stories coming out of the UK, Canada, and Australia are absolutely pathetic.

Post 28

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 3:34pm

I own a gun in case a bad guy is (A) much bigger than me and coming after me or somebody I care about (B) has a weapon himself and is coming after me or somebody I care about (C) my government deciding to take my right to my gun away from me (D) is a liberal and I'm having a boring day (bullet-dancing, baby)

Post 29

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 1:22pm

Ha! I like David's (D) the best.

Post 30

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 2:33pm

Kelly,

An excellent source of info on groin strikes, neck strikes etc. is Kill or Get Killed, a Marine Corps combat manual dating from the 1970s, based on techniques developed during & before WWII. It's available in PDF form here:

http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/Kill_or_Get_Killed.pdf

(Edited by Duncan Bayne
on 5/05, 2:38pm)

Post 31

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 1:19am

I (half-seriously) suggest that this poll

"What weaponry do you carry on a daily basis?"

be modified to allow the following response:

Me - I regularly lift heavy weights to convert cheeseburgers into large muscles.

Actually, I'm quite pleased at the notion of calling myself a bipedal cheesburger--that 200 grams of protein per day has to come from somewhere. Sirloin cheeseburgers are heart-healthy for weightlifters.

I rarely give thought to self-defense, perhaps because my circumstances do not make me feel particularly vulnerable.

When I have considered it, in addition to considering impromptu strategies I am mentally 'programming' myself to ensure that my response to threat is proportional and justified, as ethics and the law generally demand.

Emergencies are no time to wax analytical.

Nathan Hawking

Post 32

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 12:52pm

Duncan -

Great link to the WWII combat manual. I like the section on recreating combat scenario - dim light, no time to aim, etc. Re-emphasizes the need for practice, practice.

I'm on my way to being practiced, but in the meantime, what I like about owning a gun, not to mention full-body heavy weapons fighting, is the frame of mind. I'm tougher in business negotiations, and less likely to kow in the face of verbal abuse. Self-defence experts say that's half the battle, at least when it comes to muggings, or in the case of a random attack by a jealous liberal who's thought processes resemble the fermenting of mare's milk in the animal skin of an Uzbecki nomad.

The only anti-gun argument that makes sense: gads, what a mess.

-Julia

Post 33

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 4:43pm

my weapon of choice; stale marshmallow peeps.

Post 34

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 6:02pm

And you can either throw them at the attacker or you can feed them to him and cause a fatal blood sugar spike!

Kelly

Post 35

Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 8:26pm

Julia,

I'm glad you liked the book; there's actually a lot of WWII-era material on the 'net, and some of it is really very good.

As you're fortunate enough to live in a country where you can legally carry arms, you might want to have a read of Shooting to Live, the techniques from which are still taught today by many pistol instructors.

Post 36

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 5:56am

Thank you for the mention.

For those unfamiliar with the basics of self-defense, I've written a book in which you may be interested:

http://www.shorthandemptyhand.com/programs.htm

Post 37

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 2:07pm

Why wasn't there an option for "My two fists, baby. And that's all I need..."

Post 38

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 4:18pm

Here is everything a non-fighter needs to know about unarmed combat.

1. If it is complicated and you have to think about it--too late. You are better having 1-3 effective, automatic 'moves' than a laundry list of things you need to think about to execute.

2. Don't fight anyone, ever. If you follow this rule and are still in a fight, you have absolutely no moral culpability for being in the fight, so treat it as an attack on your very life--no hesitation, strike swiftly, with strength, with intent to do as much harm as possible. (If you cannot develop a willingness to rteally hurt someone, then you will NEVER be able to physically defend yourself, and skip to #4 below.) Then get out of there, screaming and yelling the whole time to draw attention, and run towards crowds and light.

3. Hit hard parts of the body with a soft part of yours. Hit a soft part of your enemy with a hard part of yours. Eyes, face, jaw (in their mouth is open), throat, groin, top of their foot (if you can stomp with hard-bottomed shoes). Those are the only targets you ever need to worry about. Dont look at their eyes, look away or at their chest or waist, and then strike as hard and fast as you can. This distracts your opponent, and helps you contain fear--90% of fear in a physical confrontation is looking at the aggressor's dominant and aggressive facial expression. 90% of a person freezing is as a result of fear. If you focus on their chest, you can still see punches coming, but you will not be cowed and fearful and distracted by their words, look, and expressions.

4. A can of pepper spray or mace is the easiest, most effective way to defuse a fight situation. Better than a bat, a baton, a knife, or a gun. One good squirt, and walk away.

Post 39

Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 8:42am