Highest level of education

I'm a lifelong student at the School of Hard Knocks.

Post 1

Friday, July 11, 2003 - 11:04am

After leaving college without a degree, I have been free to learn of truth and beauty on my own terms. Knowledge is available to all who seek it. Whether formally "taught" or independently gleaned, wisdom is priceless.

Post 2

Monday, July 14, 2003 - 12:25pm

Even those of us with degrees are free to learn of truth and beauty on our own terms. :) And I agree that wisdom is priceless. My thoughts are, however, that a degree is priceable (?).

This is part of a bigger question that I've wondered about, and hopefully I'm not jumping ahead to a follow-up poll question.

I hear a lot of people talking about how bad school was and so they dropped out and left to pursue learing on their own. I'm trying to get a sense for how these people fare in life (at least in careers & money) vs those that finish with degrees.

To those in high school or less (called different things in different countries), this may not apply to you yet; though you can respond if you plan to study formally further than required.

-Elizabeth

Post 3

Monday, July 14, 2003 - 12:49pm

Schooling is not education. I've always thought that the only contribution from a school is discipline: you have to sit and cover a fixed amount of material on a schedule. Anything that a teacher says can be written down. The teacher, for most of us, is only an oral book. Unless you get a significant amount of personal attention, you might as well be watching a video.

I've held this view as a student and as a professor. My ex-colleagues used to hate to hear me say that the students could learn on their own if we only encourage it; but, instead, we encourage dependency: they expect to be spoon-fed everything.

To answer Elizabeth�s question, I remember seeing studies that showed the value of a college degree. However, I�ve always claimed that these studies showed the value of the admission process. If you let in motivated and intelligent students, is it a surprise that they succeed in life?

My only warning: if you don�t get a degree, expect to knock on many doors before you find the person who isn�t prejudiced against self-learning. I have a hard time getting the boss to consider the person and not the degree.

Post 4

Monday, July 14, 2003 - 3:45pm

Receiving a degree is, of course, commendable. Having devoted time exclusively to study various topics in an academic setting has TREMENDOUS value. I, however, found many people who had no interest in learning whatsoever who took advantage of the prestige granted to a "degree". These are people who cheated and lied their way through school and now stand to reap salary benefits supposedly reserved for people of talent and skill. Bearing that in mind, I give credibility to someone based on their ideas not on their "credentials". All due respect to those who have degrees and worked hard to get them. That is honorable, but it is not a rubber stamp of approval on your ideas and actions in the world.

Post 5

Monday, July 14, 2003 - 4:57pm

I guess what I'm looking for is this... We seem to have a lot of self-educators on this site. If you did not follow the formal education route for higher education, and are now running a company, making good money, teaching at a university, running a Foundation, etc., I'd like to hear about it!

-Elizabeth

Post 6

Monday, July 14, 2003 - 6:24pm

A degree is primarily a tool to enable the holder to find a good job. Our whole education system is designed to turn out "employees". As competition hots up - the more educated you are (formally) the better you can compete in the job market (as an employee).

If that's your goal - then get a formal degree - or two.

However, in my considerable experience (with no degree), the vital ingredient for success is not formal education as such - but the willingness to learn from life and experience, and most importantly - to have utter confidence in yourself.

I don't say this as someone who HAS such unbounded confidence, but I have found it to be the vital ingredient - so achieving more of it is always worthwhile.

There are many qualities essential for success in life - like persistence, diligence, honesty, knowledge etc - but confidence trumps all.

If you have no interest in being "employed" - and want to make it as either a loner (entrepreneur, investor etc), or an employer (business builder) - then being self-taught and brimming with confidence will get you by handsomely :-)

Of course, if you combine both strategies - then you will increase your life success odds.

Post 7

Monday, July 14, 2003 - 8:02pm

Well, Elizabeth, I'm 24 and make $40,000 a year (before the looters take their cut); and I'm self-educated.

Post 8

Monday, July 14, 2003 - 8:58pm

For no reason other than that it's vaguely amusing, I thought I would quote the following from Joseph Heller's 'Catch 22':-

"He was a self-made man who owed his lack of success to nobody."

On a more serious note, not having a degree sometimes catches up with you later on, especially within the professions. I worked for a top 5 accountancy firm for several years but eventually hit a glass ceiling due to my a) lack of technical accounting knowledge but also b) lack of a formal qualification to give me credibility. Accountants and lawyers are by their nature cautious and understandably often see no reason to promote someone without the right piece of paper in case it backfires on them.
I am now remedying this by studying at Auckland University for a Bachelor of Arts and Bachelor of Commerce.

Of course this problem does not pertain in all industries, as Matthew has illustrated.

Post 9

Monday, July 14, 2003 - 9:07pm

While we're on the subject of education, here is an apocryphal account of a conversation between an Oxford undergraduate and his professor:

Undergraduate: But you're blowing up the wrong tyre, sir. It's the back one that's flat.

Professor: Goodness me! You mean the two of them are not connected?

Post 10

Monday, July 14, 2003 - 9:53pm

I dropped out of college after reading The Fountainhead. I have since become an independent commodities trader (independent, but not financially successful...for more detail see my forum posting "Re: Nice to be here")

Post 11

Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 8:37am

Hi Elizabeth...

I think your question depends on the type of industry a self-educated, non-degreed person gets involved in and how they measure success.

I graduated high school, worked, then earned a partial scholarship to an art school. I didn't stay...had to work to pay the bills...and frankly, the school was not giving me my return on the money. I figured I could teach myself for less than the money I had to come up with after the scholarship. Plus, the school was headed in a definite post-modernist direction which alienated me.

I earned a certificate in 9 mos. for computer graphic design, and really that's about it for schooling. No real degrees here. In graphic design, your portfolio, or simply the fact you know how to work the most standard software used for the job says much more about you than degrees or certificates.

As an artist there's no real need for a degree unless you want to get into an adademic field or curatorship, and I just want to paint. In the future I'd like to study with accomplished painters, but I don't need a degree to do that nor do I need to earn one to become a masterful artist.

And the graphics certificate did allow me to leave my very difficult day job of working in retail. I do rather well at this point. If not, I'd still be in retail management of one form or another...and would probably still make good money, but I'd have less quality of life.

At 33, I find that all my life experience (there is much!) and self-directed learning on my own and on the job has allowed me to put together a nice, fat resume with many transferable skills.

Plus, I've started my own mural business, and I'm hoping that this rather fun and good-paying venture can afford me to work for myself and fund my fine art, which is what I really want to do.

So...without official degrees, how far can one go? It depends on your chosen industry, your tenacity/confidence, and what you call success. I'm pretty confident that within my (graphics) field I could go as high as I wanted if I kept my skills current. That does require self-directed knowledge, as well as classes.

My success could be measured in whether I will be able to support myself as an artist without day jobs, but also (and more important) it will be in the quality of work I can attain. I figure I'd rather make the highest quality of work I can...even if I don't sell a million paintings and still have to work day jobs. If I can make a living at it, that's a wonderful bonus.

As far as my mural business goes, that develops from reputation and quality. I've done very well with it for just starting it this past year.

So...I'm not starving, but I'm not where I want to be just yet. But I'm on the right path. I don't think a degree is too important for what I do or what I want, nor is it too important within the world I wish to conduct business in. It could have opened some doors for higher pay with day jobs...but in the end, what I want to do depends on my own hard efforts and assimilation of life experience.

Post 12

Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 8:45am

Hi Elizabeth again:

I just wanted to bring up the situation of my brother. He dropped out of high school and started work as a trash collector!! He was such a hard worker with motivation to learn, that his boss taught him how to fix engines and weld. He soon started getting work as a mechanic and welder. He worked on a union at Boston's Big Dig project. When he was laid off, he started his own welding business. Now he has a fleet of trucks and is getting contracts like crazy. He has a reputation as one of the hardest-working, most honest guys in the biz.

He's about 31 and on his way to becoming a very rich man. His school chums chided him in the past as "Hector the Garbage Collector", but he makes more money than all of them, has a beautiful, intelligent fiance, and a wonderful daughter.

Post 13

Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 12:35pm

Hi Kritin!

I will definitely agree with you about the whole art degree! I don't think it gives you a career advantage really, so it's more like going to college for the college experiences and then just doing what you like while there. Could get expensive...

Your brother is an example of success w/o an education. That is fantastic. And I'm glad to see he's got the skills to run a good business and that he didn't need an MBA to get there! :)

I really think there aren't enough people here to answer my question, esp who haven't tried yet. So I won't dwell on those pieces any longer! Thanks!

-Elizabeth

Post 14

Monday, July 21, 2003 - 2:15pm

To me, it is impossible to put a limit on education and the like. You are constantly teaching yourself new concepts. It is actually inevitable. School shouldn't limit yourself of your capability. You should always be in the pursuit of knowledge. Educating yourself I find to be very effective.

Post 15

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 4:00am

Maybe those with a PhD or master's degree could tell us what they wrote their thesis on (and whether it was in Polish or not!).

Post 16

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 10:01am

Master's Thesis in Structural Engineering, 1965:

"A Stiffness Model for Plane Stress Analysis"

(and you have no idea what that is about)

Paul

Post 17

Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 7:59pm

As a music composition student, I have create a large scale composition in addition to a written thesis that will relate to the work. However, I have at least three years before I have to worry about all that! :)

Post 18

Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 9:02pm