About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 7:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It pains me to say this, but the biggest barrier to acceptance of Objectivism is ... well ... some of the people connected to Objectivism. :)

Again, this goes back to 'are we speaking academically or everyday acceptance'.

If I had seen some of the modern 'advocates' of Objectivism earlier in my quest for a rational philosophy, I would have run screaming into the night and never looked back. *grin*

Infighting by the various factions is such an incredible turn off that I sometimes fear for the future of Objectivism as a legitimate avenue for a rational thinker.

It's that serious.

Objectivism has little to offer most people -- in terms they can accept and understand. Let's face it, some Objectivists just aren't that friendly, or patient, or even articulate. There are no Objectivist holidays to bring people together for fun and festivities, or even a sense of open comraderie (sp?).

BUT ... Objectivism does offer a lot for critical thinkers. But most people out there aren't looking for critical thinking. They are looking for companionship, fellowship, a sense that we're all in this game called 'life' together ... which is why religion will never wholly fail. :)

Post 1

Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 8:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joy, I very much agree with you.

Whenever I try to make a list or a plan of action for "How to take over the world" or "Battle plan for SOLO", #1 is changing the current Objectivist culture. And I think that is a big reason why SOLO was set up in the first place.

Post 2

Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 11:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A bit bleak for you Joy, but I understand your thoughts re Objectivism's penchant for internal factional warfare - as a newbie to Objectivism I find it disconcerting at best, depressing at worst.

This doesn't change the primary importance, however, of critical thinking. No matter what the internal politics of Objectivism are at any point in time, is doesn't change the fact that reality exists. Critical thinking is required, however, to break the shackles of collectivism, socialism and mysticism. But why is critical thinking so weak: a parental issue? educational?

Post 3

Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 12:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Good question Mark.

I would say that parents are responsible to some extent, but then most parents (like their children) were educated in public schools where critical thinking seldom features in the curriculum. And where it does crop up now and again, many teachers haven't got a clue what it means. Perhaps more than any other government program, public education is the number one contributing cause of uncritical thinking.

Post 4

Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 12:45amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I agree with Joy that Objectivists are a big barrier to the acceptance of Objectivism, & I regret that the boys didn't see fit to include "Objectivists" as one of the options. Indeed, I would urge them to restart the poll WITH that option included. Though we know that truth doesn't lie in numbers, it would nonetheless be a sobering wake-up call if a significant number of respondents on this, an Objectivist site, ticked that box ... as I suspect they would. (Another option to add, incidentally, would be "the anti-conceptual mentality." That's huge.)

There's much more I want to say on this, but it would be article-length, so I SHALL write an article. Tomorrow :-)

Post 5

Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 9:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I have a somewhat different perspective to offer. Frankly, I find the idea that one of the major barriers to acceptance of Objectivism (or the wider spread of Objectivism)is "Objectivist society" or Objectivists themselves wrongheaded and disturbing. I say this for several reasons. First, I think it is simply demonstrably not true. Do any of you who propound this view truly believe that if we woke up tomorrow morning, and EVERYONE in Objectivism were like David Kelley, or Chris Sciabarra, or Lindsay Perigo, that the world would change that much faster -- and that suddenly significant numbers of people who resist Objectivism for a variety of reasons would see the light, and accept it? A related factor is, I think, and with all due respect, a failure to appreciate the nature of deep cultural change -- and the time required for such a change. Our culture, even though it is better is certain measurable ways (and I plan to write about one of those ways in the near future)than a few decades ago, remains dominated by the unholy trinity identified by Rand decades ago: altruism, mysticism, and collectivism. To reach this point took more than a century, and to reverse these trends, using history as a guide, will take at least that long. (I also agree with Linz that the anti-conceptual mentality is a huge impediment to even understanding the issues involved, let alone understanding and accepting Objectivism.)
I said that I find this focus on "Objectivist society" disturbing for this reason: I have seen this phenomenon in Objectivism for almost 40 years, involving a succession of people,and it has always struck me as, at bottom, pointless and needless. And, as the "newbie" to Objectivism noted above, this constant discussion of infighting, factionalism and the like has to be enormously troubling to anyone new to Objectivism. I view such discussion and analysis as a "necessary evil," if you will. It IS important and necessary to understand what is wrong with the doctrinaire and authoritarian approach of Peikoff, et al., so as to know what those mistakes are, and to avoid repeating them. But that's all that's necessary. After you've done that, get on with the positive message of Objectivism in any way you can: write articles here, but perhaps more importantly, write letters to the editor, contact your government representatives, try to get articles published in your local newspaper (if that sort of thing interests you) -- but, in any and every way you can (including your daily interactions with other people), get the positive message out. And, as we all apparently agree, Objectivism, at its foundation and in its most important aspects, has a profoundly positive, indeed inspirational, message. I think it's a question of emphasis: rather than sounding like the Soviet Communist Party (are we Trotskyites, Leninists, Stalinists, etc., etc. ad nauseum) or the fractious followers of Freud, focus on what you think is true and right -- and tell the world about it, in all the ways you can.
I'm reminded of David Kelley's essay, "Better Things to Do," in which he discussed the necessity of dealing with ARI and the problems it engenders, but then -- and as quickly as possible -- moving beyond that, to much more important things. And I think it's safe to say we all have better things to do.

Post 6

Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 10:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Arthur, I think that people like Perigo, Sciabarra, Kelley, Machan, Khamy/Torres, Mimi Gladstein, etc. (Sorry I know I forgot a million others) in fact ARE making a difference. It is not a question of "would they" or "could we". It is rather they ARE, and we WILL.

I don't think we have to become Door-to-Door Objectivists a la Jehovah's Witness, that would certainly be a cue to move on and find better things to do. I do think that a little more intellectual curiosity or willingness to discuss topics like "Homosexuality" or "Housekeeping" :), Frank Lloyd Wright, and "Am I a Thief Yes or No?", attracts more people to sites like this. Keep up the good work!

Post 7

Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 10:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
One further thought: if you are ever discouraged when contemplating the long time that is required for profound cultural change (and who of us is not), remember Rand's wonderful statement: "Those who fight for the future, live in it today."

Post 8

Tuesday, September 3, 2002 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
In regards to Arthur saying that it is 'disturbing' to believe that Objectivist culture or individuals have a negative impact on the spread of Objectivism I'll clarify what I meant.

It's not that I think it is slowing down the movement per se that bothers me, it's the fact that for a philosophy that is supposedly based in reason, rationality, reality and benevolence, there is often very little evidence of this when in Objectivist circles. SOLO/SOLOHQ has been the refreshing exception to that.

As a newbie (which I am) I observe a great deal and if I see that people advocating the philosophy acting as if they never heard of rational thought, or don't even understand the principles they are supposedly hawking .. what can I conclude? How many interested people have observed the same thing and come to the same conclusions. When someone advocates something, I expect to see results -- that is to say, I expect them to be living by what they supposedly believe in.

For me, it boils down to a specific kind of comparision -- when I choose role models, or the positive things in life I want to make a part of my own life, I question them, examine them and try to discover the source of that positive thing.

If all I see is petty finger pointing, squabbling, condemnations, and sheer irrationality in something that is supposed to hold opposite values ... well, what does that say?

Hopefully, I've overcome the initial hurdles to understand that not all Objectivists understand what they are saying or doing but I had to make a real effort to get to that point. Quite honestly, before I was introduced to SOLO, I was right at the cusp of writing off Objectivism as a bunch of whiny, arrogant, people with a huge insecurity problems. LOL! Not a fair assessment as I've many Objectivists recently that are the kind of beings I thought possible in this world.

So, it isn't from the viewpoint of overall progress or cultural change, it's from the viewpoint of some Objectivists just turning away potential people interested in their philosophy by their ridiculous actions. Is it necessary? In this case, no! Save the battles for our real opponents. If we're infighting and playing those games, we aren't showing the best side of Objectivism to people who may be interested in the REAL aspects of Objectivism.

Joy :)

Post 9

Tuesday, September 3, 2002 - 9:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bravissima Joy, and right you are. The word "infighting" in your last paragraph reminded me of the word "inbreeding" which, come to think of it, sounds alot like what you are describing.:) Again I think that Objectivist circles are starting to get a few fresh "meme's" in their "meme pool". I don't know why I'm telling you this. You sound like the hostess, so I'm congratulating you:)

Post 10

Friday, September 6, 2002 - 12:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mark:

"But why is critical thinking so weak: a parental issue? educational?"

There's plenty of critical thinking out there. What's lacking is the COURAGE to voice it. You can see it in the eyes. I like observing people's reactions when I make (what I know to be) controversial statements. It's instructive. It's also instructive to watch reactions when others make inflammatory comments. Plenty disagree with the bullshit that goes on daily. They just don't SAY SO. They blank out. Turn off. Change the subject. They're AFRAID. Just go BOO! and all of the demons vanish. Screw 'em! If there was a bit more self-respect in the world, there would be more expressions of critical thinking, I'm sure.

Post 11

Friday, September 6, 2002 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ross I agree with you completely. I have seen it myself, I saw it today. People just have to speak up, question, probe, speak against, dare to contradict. That is what makes the difference. The Socratic gadfly is just as much a part of philosophy as the Aristotelian treatise. They probably won't like it when you speak out in class but that's OK if a professor won't allow students to think critically then they should not be professors. As for students, if they don't do it then they are wasting their time and money.

Post 12

Friday, September 13, 2002 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I think Objectivism needs to have a spokesperson. Someone who can be friendly, civil, challenging, sexually attractive, articulate,and humorous. Lots of objectivists aren't these things. He must know how to pull publicity stunts to attract attention to our ideas. Writting articles generates very little public excitement. We need a dangerous artist who shock with new heights of intelligence and emotion and I daresay, if no one else will do this, THEN I WILL! Just try to stop me!

PS this will take years to accomplish, but I can handle that

Post 13

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hey Adam don't wait too long gravity does take its toll on us mortals. I think what you say is wonderful.

Post 14

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
[with military bravado]
Men (and women of course)! Ignorance is our enemy. We must go into the lion's den and defeat the enemy where he lurks. The main tactic for the everyday warrior consists of saying two words to everything that stands against them. "I dissagree" is a very important tactical device. It attracts attention, and suggests that the enemy is not as strong as its victims think. If the enemy tries to call your bluff by saying, "Oh Yeah!" or "Who are you to dissagre?" or "So What," you are ready for him. You can then dispense with the chit-chat and shell out the heavy artillery and blast him out of the water no matter what your situation. As the General of esthetic proctology forces, I will defeat the forces of nihilism, post-modernism, and other such disguting things by going to the source of the matter and detonationg the offending rectal passages and replacing them with my own Special OPs whose mission is to spread truth and beauty. Any questions? Go to it men!

Gen. Adam Thayer Buker
commander of ES.P. Forces

Post 15

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 11:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Pianoman,

To become an Objectivist spokesman, you'll have to start speaking for Objectivism. I recommend you give writing for SoloHQ a try. I'd love to start you on the way towards your destiny.

I especially think you should hurry if you want to help destroy post-modernism, because Michael Newberry is working on that as we speak, with wonderful results.

Post 16

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'll give him a race to see who'll destroy it first! :) As for speaking out, I plan launching my own website dedicated to the arts (primarily music) and everyday living. But right now, I'm tied up doing school work at good ol' SIU.

Post 17

Monday, March 31, 2003 - 6:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
What's holding back Objectivism? Well, I think Joy pretty much hit the nail on the head. Objectivsts are holding Objectivism back, for reasons most of which have been discussed here.

But what's the real question here? It's not "What's holding Objectivism back", it's "What's holding rational thought back?" The idea here is to get people thinking rationally. Get them to apply the conceptual knife to the ideas that pass through their head. Who cares if they call it Objectivism? To push Objectivism Objectivism Objectivism is to say, I'm not asking you to decide on the truth, I'm asking you to decide on the words of Ayn Rand.

No matter how in unison those two (truth and Ayn Rand's ideas) may be, the conceptual knife slices the two apart. They're not the same.

I like to think of Objectivism as kind of a club. It's for people who want to get together and talk about Ayn Rand, her ideas, and how these apply to our world. If J. Random Thinker doesn't want to be an Objectivist, who cares? It's rational thought that matters. It's seeing concepts and applying critical thought processes.

It's deciding to look for the truth, and making a serious effort to do so.

Those are the people that offer you the greatest value, not necessarily "Objectivists".

Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.