About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 5:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Given that:
1. The government only accomplishes things via threat and use of force.
2. Government is controlled by voting
3. Government can be controlled to attack innocent victims
4. Controlling something in order to attack innocent victims is an initiation of force
Conclusion: Voting can be an initiation of force.

Should voting to decide on government policies be anonymous?

If government policies are controlled by anonymous voting, and government is controlled to initiate force, whom should innocent victims retaliate against?

What about the case where representatives are anonymously voted to represent citizens in deciding on government policies? Should voting for representation be anonymous too?

Post 1

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 5:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The government shouldn't have the authority to initiate force.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 2

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 8:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kyle,

You didn't answer my question. Whatever you think government should or should not be authorized to do: People vote for it to do things that you do not authorize. The government does what people vote for it to do. Even if you first create a government that has a rule that it is not supposed to do something, people can still vote to change or ignore the rule.

My question is not of what the government should do. My question is: given that voting can be an initiation of force, should voting be anonymous?

===

Here is another question: Are people who execute government policy, where the policy is to initiate force, to what extent are these people responsible for their actions? In what way should they be retaliated against? For example, a man who is hired by the government to administer poison to those condemned to death. Let's say he knows that the government is condemning to death innocent people, and that he is killing innocent people. Is he himself initiating force? What if he voted against the government to do such, but other citizens defeated his vote by majority? What if he plans to use the money he earns to fight those who voted for condemning innocent people to death? If he didn't do the job, someone else would do the job and take the government money. Better him to get the government money than someone who voted for the initiation of force.

If citizens began retaliating against those who "blindly follow government orders", then there it would not make sense for a person who voted against initiation of force to continue working that job.

If anonymous voting is the situation, then maybe executioners should be considered the culprits? If non-anonymous, then voters voting for initiation of force are the culprits?

Post 3

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 10:07pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I think proper voter registration is in order so as to eliminate voter fraud.
Repair back to the constituition. And drastically reduce government power so that it is not able to initiate force but only use it to apprehend actual criminals.
Courts, police, military. That is it.
We have all had numerous posts on the proper roll of government so I am not going to elaborate.
Interesting proposition Dean. People should be held accountable for their actions. People often will do horrible things under the blanket of anonymity. It is a can of worms though! I will put some thoufht into it tonight when I have some time.
Kyle is correct though as well, the ability for the government to initiate force should be banned.

Post 4

Monday, December 10, 2012 - 8:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,

The differentiation that is needed is between government actions involving the use of force (or threat thereof) to defend individual rights, or to retaliate against those that violate individual rights, and any other use (or threat) of force.

People can vote all day long on morally justified use of force, but should never have a vote on the immoral use of force.

Anonymous has nothing to do with that.

The reason for anonymous voting to reduce the chances of people being intimidated (threatened) into voting against their own choices.

Kyle and then Jules have it right. Our form of government was intended to be a constitutionally limited republic and with the supreme court and the bill of rights and the government explicitly prohibited from taking any action not explicitly permitted by the constitution, the voting wouldn't matter - votes for illicit acts would be rejected. But we have strayed from that model.

Post 5

Monday, December 10, 2012 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"We have strayed from that model"? True. And who is responsible? Nobody knows! Even people who acknowledge they voted a certain way could be lying.

Is anonymous voting more likely to protect the innocent individualists voters or the culpable forced redistributionists/private relationship regulationist voters?

Some pros on non-anonymous voting:

- Businesses could choose pricing of their products to customers individually based on who voted what... basically charge higher prices to taxers and regulators to cover the cost of taxes and regulations.

- Innocent individualists can make friends who will retaliate on each other's behalf in the case of an attack (whether the attack is by a corrupt government or a fringe group). With non-anonymous voting, we know who is responsible for governmental force initiations. Hence voting for individual rights and against redistribution/private regulation could be possible without a strong worry of becoming a victim of non-anonymous voter aggression.

Post 6

Monday, December 10, 2012 - 11:03amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
And a rights violating government could profile and murder SO efficiently those that vote against them. Iran has "elections".

Post 7

Monday, December 10, 2012 - 1:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Peer pressure works both ways. Those who talked like they were part of the progressive movement, but secretly voted against Obama because they thought he was going too far would be outed by non-anonymous voting.

I think that, net-net, the danger of letting the government be able to see your vote is more dangerous than the benefits of open voting.

Post 8

Wednesday, October 15, 2014 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Government does not exist, except as a collectivist abstraction.  What exists are only individuals.  Voting is merely individuals expressing wishes.  That one individual wishes another to commit evil does not cause the evil to be commited, so voting is without moral signifigance.  So also is legislating.  All that counts morally is individual action.  All morality is an issue between two individuals. 

 

Therefore all the evil of "government" is merely the individual evils of police officers and soldiers (pigs and grunts), who may excuse their evils by reference to law, or god, or fairy stories, but their evil is entirely their own choice and they are entirely to blame for it.   

 

(Edited by JOHN HOWARD on 10/15, 5:04pm)



Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Wednesday, October 15, 2014 - 5:17pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

To the extent that voting is a useful way for groups to make decisions, secret ballots are a mistake.  They create an enormous oportunity for voter fraud that would not exist if everyone's vote was public.  Public voting would allow every voter to look up his name and see that his vote was recorded correctly.  It would also allow individuals to identify other individuals whose votes they dispproved of and to act accordingly ( fire them, argue with them, refuse to marry them, etc).  Voters would be far less likely to cast shameful votes if they knew their vote would be seen by their peers.



Post 10

Wednesday, October 15, 2014 - 10:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Public voter registration yes.  A list of all people who are able to cast a ballot should be public.  In this way voter fraud can be avoided.  2000 people cast ballots in area "A".  1200 voted this way, 800 voted that way.  So that if MORRE than 2000 votes were cast you know voter fraud was commited.   HOW someone voted is not a good idea to be made public at ALL.  It would be too easy for a corrupt government to record and persecute those that voted against them.

 

(Edited by Jules Troy on 10/15, 10:13pm)



Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 11

Thursday, October 16, 2014 - 9:11amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

With a properly constrained government and restrictions on what are issues of 'public' concern requiring a vote, it wouldn't matter if voting was conducted privately, publicly, anonymously, by psychic, by Monto Carlo simulution, or by randomly calling people in the phone book and just asking a sampling of them.

 

A political context in which government is holding votes on issues where this matters is already involved in too much.

 

We have an all volunteer national defence force.   We could fix the current insanity by restricting the decisions to use or not use that force to those who fight and die in the wars.   There is -nothing- positive to say for the track record of civilian control over the military.

 

We need to deploy some navigation bouys in the harbors.   We need to paint some double yellow lines down the middle of the roads.   Beyond that, we are caving in to the fantasies and picadillos of paternalistic megalomaniacs.     We need to recruit some volunteers and hand them paintbrushes; we need to hire a few state plumbers and hand them plungers and ask that they provide their turn at honorably keeping the plumbing of state clean and free flowing.

 

We don't need emperors for that; we aren't handing them scepters.   I don't care what kind of robes they wore at graduation from those inbred Ivy League mandrels of thought.

 

For what we need a right sized government to actually do, it would barely matter how we 'voted' on what the plumbers do.

 

We are so far beyond that model that it reads like a joke.

 

The Joke is on us.

 

regards,

Fred



Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 12

Thursday, October 16, 2014 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

@ Jules (Post 10),

 

Voter fraud is more than a total of 1200 + 800 adding up to 2000.  A secret ballot makes it extremely difficult to prove that the division was 1200 / 800 and not 300 / 1700.

 

Your other argument assumes a tyranical government and then argues in favor of giving them the advantage of secret ballot elections.  That makes no sense.  A tyrannical government survives by voter fraud.  Open ballots would make clear that they were unpopular.  If you are saying that they are so scary that no one would dare to vote against them, then what difference does voting make anyway? 



Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 13

Thursday, October 16, 2014 - 10:32amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

@ Fred (Post 11),

 

I think I agree with all that. Currently we have a ruling elite constantly changing and adding to a vast collection of millions of shifting laws and the rest of us are invited to periodically choose a parasite to tax and rule us ("represent" us), with no guarantee that they will honor any of their promises once in office.

 

A better system would be a very few, very permanent rules - literally carved on large stones - and no legislators at all. No ruling elite. So few rules that 10-year-olds could memorize them all in an afternoon. So permanent that kids would enjoy the same rules as their great grand parents.



Post 14

Thursday, October 16, 2014 - 3:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Stand up and be counted.  The famous Norman Rockwell poster, "Freedom of Speech" says much.  In old New England, voting was in the open.  You could stand up for what you believed in because you knew that your neighbors respected your rights.  Then we got the secret ballot, also called the Australian Ballot, because that was a nation settled by criminals who did not trust each other.  It is also true, of course, that we no longer trust the government.  Government exists as an independent institution.  In times gone by, government was just your neighbors doing civic duty for a short time, as you did, also, on boards or commissions, courts, or offices.  You participate, and then move on.  The model was Cincinnatus, who served as dictator of Rome and then returned to his farm.  You serve when called, whether commanding an army, or coordinating flood relief, or hiring a school principal.

 

But that was then... and that is not now...  If you want an open ballot, then you need open govenment.



Post 15

Thursday, October 16, 2014 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Personally, I want no government, just a short list of fixed rules. 

 

I understand there are some caucuses where the participants actually go to one side or the other of a room to be counted so everyone can clearly see who and how many are for what.  Good plan. 



Post 16

Thursday, October 16, 2014 - 4:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

It is called a division of the house.  It follows a call when a hand vote fails,  that is,  when someone challenges the ability of the chair (and appointees) to count hands (cards, etc.).  That is called for when the voice vote Aye or Nay is challenged.  Roberts' Rules of Order are well known.  However, they are not necessarily the parliamentary rules of any and all bodies.  A deliberative group can make its own rules.  The US House and Senate have done that.  State governments have done that.  Usually, private bodies just go by Roberts as easy to know and follow.



Post 17

Thursday, October 16, 2014 - 4:16pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

As to secret ballots, it is a nice bit of privacy and it is a protection from a government that is moving towards tyranny.  Look at how our government has been using the IRS to target conservatives and libertarians and NSA to spy on journalists.

 

Usually there is a period of time where a government moves from not being a tyranny towards being a tyranny - usually a period of years or even decades. Once a government becomes a full-fledged tyranny then voting is not an effective expression of people's choices - it is either ended altogether, or it becomes a total fraud - like the former USSR's voting which was required, but never offered the choice of a non-communist opponent.

 

It is the inbetween period of time where an open ballot would be a danger.  It would give the government a way to target those who oppose them. I don't think it is a very long-lasting period because the same government that would abuse an open ballot would also engage in voting fraud. Before a government reaches that state, it simply wouldn't matter. After that stage is passed it is too late to look at the particulars of voting practices as a way to save the country.

------------

 

The issue of tyranny is probably something we should look at more carefully. When should we declare that we are more oppressed than free?  When is it reasonable to start using force to 'water that tree of liberty' Jefferson spoke of?  On one level the question always appears as an individual choice. And then it is a choice driven by the individual's context which can vary considerably from person to person.  But what can we look at as general guidelines?

 

Rand spoke about freedom of speech (and assembly) and freedom of the press - I don't remember, but she may have included the absence of significant voter fraud. If so, I can certainly see that approach. When the citizenry can no longer speak or write about the changes they believe are needed, or to assemble to urge their positions and generate support, and they can not vote in a way that lets them change the politicians, then choice is no longer politically viable and only force is left.

 

There has to be a connection between the choice of the individuals and the way their country is governed if we want to call it representative, and say that government's purpose is to protect choice.
-------------

 

I agree (to an extent) with what Mr. Howard said about very, very few rules.  Individual rights is the moral base for laws.  The constitution should be a much tighter and more effective limit on the laws that government can make.  There need to be many detailed laws, but only in the sense of properly describing variations of those few things that people can't do.  For example, there are many ways to initiate force or to threaten to initiate force, and those variations need to be described (extortion, mugging, armed robbery, assault, man-slaughter, murder, etc.) Otherwise you can't differentiate actions in an understandable, objective fashion so as to know what to prosecute and what isn't a violation of rights.

 

And things like contract law need to be spelled out.

 

But if it isn't directly arising from individual rights, then there should be no law.  And the value of stability (the same set of rules persisting unchanged for generations) is so true.

 

We have become a country where laws are changed annually or monthly or even daily as part of a partisan squabbling, as means of implimenting ideologies, as means of gaining competitive business advange achieved via lobbiests, as the drive of agency regulators to control nearly every aspect of everyone's life, or just as political kabuki dances put on to sway votes in the next election.

 

Much of society acts as if only we had enough laws we would achieve utopia - "There should be a law..." is the common refrain. The peculiarity is that the more laws we have, the less we become a nation of laws, and more a nation ruled by whims of elites.



Post 18

Thursday, October 16, 2014 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

I want no government, just a short list of fixed rules. 

No one wants a government as such, but I hope that most people want to live in a society where individual rights are protected.  

 

And without a government, there is no realistic hope for the acceptance and implimentation of any single set of rules.  It is pure fantasy to imagine otherwise.  

 

The proper purpose of a government is to protect individual rights and that is done by a set of laws that are implemented as a monopoly for a given jurisdiction.  Anything else is either tyranny by a centralized power in that geographical area, or the chaos of force being used as competition in a marketplace that allows for anarchy - no short list of common, stable rules in either case.  

 

Only a small, constitutionally limited government stands a chance of giving us that state of a minimum number of fixed rules that could last, unchanged, over generations.  (The answer can't come just from government because a society that does not understand and desire the protection of individual rights will never get or maintain that kind of government.  The government must arise from that kind of society.   It doesn't require that every person in such a society have a clear understanding and appreciation of individual rights, just a strong majority.  That should be our target.)    



Post 19

Friday, October 17, 2014 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Steve wrote:

 

"Once a government becomes a full-fledged tyranny then voting is not an effective expression of people's choices - it is either ended altogether, or it becomes a total fraud - like the former USSR's voting which was required, but never offered the choice of a non-communist opponent.

 

Whe is the last time we have seen a presidential candidate that wanted to end the Federal Reserve
that wasn't laughed off the stage as a crazy by the media?



Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.